Calcium- The Forgotten Diuretic?

[tankasnowgod]

I've been getting more interested in the Calcium:Phosphate ratio recently. Peat suggested in a few interviews that phosphates are often used to fatten up livestock, and to add extra water weight to meat. Excess phosphate should have the same effects in humans. Doing some searching around, it seems that supplemental calcium (in the form of Calcium Carbonate) has a few studies to show that it can act as a phosphate binder, and lower high levels of serum phosphate-

Chronic Calcium Carbonate Therapy in Uremia

Twenty-one azotemic patients received 3.36 to 6.72 gm (67 to 134 mEq) of calcium carbonate for treatment of acidosis or hypocalcemia or both. All patients were studied for at least two weeks, and 15 studies were continued for 3 to 12 months. A mean increase in serum calcium of 1.6 mg/100 ml and...

jamanetwork.com

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm198607173150304

That got me wondering if Calcium, itself, has a diuretic effect. Apparently, it does, and this was well known in the 1920s-

CALCIUM TREATMENT FOR EDEMA

Meyer and Cohn,1 in 1911, studied the effect of various salts on the weight and mineral balance in normal infants. They found that by giving calcium salts they could cause a decrease in weight due to water loss. In the case of calcium chlorid, they found that the calcium ion seemed to be largely...

jamanetwork.com

We have tried the effect of large doses of calcium salts (from 12 to18 gm. daily) in cases of massive edema of diabetic and nephritic origin. In six of seven cases, most of which had been resistant to other methods of treatment, edema disappeared completely. In one case, edema disappeared, but the part played by the calcium is questionable. In two cases of nephritis, edema recurred later. None of these cases were complicated by significant myocardial damage, and in none was any other diuretic given with the calcium.

In the few instances in which we used small doses of calcium (from 1 to 3 gm. daily), little or no effect was observed. In some of the cases, edema was reduced by calcium lactate. In other cases, calcium chlorid seemed more effective. Large doses of calcium do not seem to increase the amount of serum calcium. In one case of chronic glomerular nephritis, renal function was definitely improved as the edema subsided.

In one case of diabetic edema, the basal metabolic rate rose during the administration of calcium from — 13, April 21, to an average of -j- 57, May 9. A similar dose of calcium did not produce a change in the basal metabolic rate of a normal person. In the other cases of edema discussed, the administration of calcium had no effect on the basal metabolic rate. The high
calcium content of milk may explain its diuretic action, and thus its popularity in the treatment of acute nephritis.

The salts they used were calcium lactate, and calcium cholrid[e], which contained 13% and 27% calcium respectively. They used 18g of calcium lactate, and from 9-18g of calcium chlorid[e]. This means the patients were getting between 2.34 and 4.86 grams of supplemental calcium a day. Some of the patients lost massive amounts of water weight. One patient looks to have dropped over 55 pounds in less than 20 days. No other diuretics were used, but a low salt and fluid restricted diet was usually used (although at least one patient had success without restricting either).

They seem to think it's mostly due to the calcium itself, so calcium carbonate, eggshell, and oystershell would probably work, in similar calcium doses. Calcium carbonate is 40% calcium, which would suggest 6-12 grams of calcium carbonate a day.

This now gives us three "Peaty" diuretics...... Acetazolamide, Urea (in doses of 30-120g a day), and calcium (in doses from about 2-5g).

 

[PolishSun]

Could be useful.

 

[Sefton10]

What influence do you think a predominantly dairy and fruit diet will have on this with regards to fructose and its impact on calcium/phosphate absorption? My understanding is fructose increases the excretion of phosphate (or at least reduces its absorption), but not sure if it plays a role in calcium metabolism too. So a 1:1 ratio of Cal:Phos on paper might actually be more in favour of calcium when most carbs are coming from fruit/honey etc.

 

[Dr. B]

isnt progesterone a diuretic?

What influence do you think a predominantly dairy and fruit diet will have on this with regards to fructose and its impact on calcium/phosphate absorption? My understanding is fructose increases the excretion of phosphate (or at least reduces its absorption), but not sure if it plays a role in calcium metabolism too. So a 1:1 ratio of Cal:Phos on paper might actually be more in favour of calcium when most carbs are coming from fruit/honey etc.

ive seen the comment from Ray about fructose helping excrete phosphate, as well as hes said lactose helps absorption of calcium and probably other nutrients.
shark cartilage and bovine bone have a 2:1 calcium to phosphate ratio. ray also said maybe in a recent podcast that young bones are calcium carbonate whereas as they age more phosphate gets mixed in. does he still think phosphate is an essential nutrient? id imagine especially if youre taking niacinamide, that also excretes phosphorus so with all these phosphate lowerers i wonder if it could get too low. probably not from fructose alone but maybe niacinamide could deplete too much if supplementing.

 

[Sefton10]

isnt progesterone a diuretic?



ive seen the comment from Ray about fructose helping excrete phosphate, as well as hes said lactose helps absorption of calcium and probably other nutrients.
shark cartilage and bovine bone have a 2:1 calcium to phosphate ratio. ray also said maybe in a recent podcast that young bones are calcium carbonate whereas as they age more phosphate gets mixed in. does he still think phosphate is an essential nutrient? id imagine especially if youre taking niacinamide, that also excretes phosphorus so with all these phosphate lowerers i wonder if it could get too low. probably not from fructose alone but maybe niacinamide could deplete too much if supplementing.

Good point on B3, a lot of people go to town on that.

 

[tankasnowgod]

ive seen the comment from Ray about fructose helping excrete phosphate, as well as hes said lactose helps absorption of calcium and probably other nutrients.
shark cartilage and bovine bone have a 2:1 calcium to phosphate ratio. ray also said maybe in a recent podcast that young bones are calcium carbonate whereas as they age more phosphate gets mixed in. does he still think phosphate is an essential nutrient? id imagine especially if youre taking niacinamide, that also excretes phosphorus so with all these phosphate lowerers i wonder if it could get too low. probably not from fructose alone but maybe niacinamide could deplete too much if supplementing.

It's an essential nutrient, but getting enough usually isn't a concern. It's pretty much unavoidable. Phosphates added to modern foods make it even harder to go "low phosphate."

I doubt that niacinamide and fructose alone can make phosphate go to low.... unless you are also avoiding milk, meat, and grains, and doing so chronically for months on end. Peat stated that many people are getting 5-10x more phosphate than calcium. Especially on diets like Paleo, Low Carb, and Carnivore, that isn't hard to do, seeing as most meat has 10x the phosphate as calcium.

Seriously low phosphate might be indicative of a more serious problem, or something like excessive fasting/starvation.

 

[Dr. B]

It's an essential nutrient, but getting enough usually isn't a concern. It's pretty much unavoidable. Phosphates added to modern foods make it even harder to go "low phosphate."

I doubt that niacinamide and fructose alone can make phosphate go to low.... unless you are also avoiding milk, meat, and grains, and doing so chronically for months on end. Peat stated that many people are getting 5-10x more phosphate than calcium. Especially on diets like Paleo, Low Carb, and Carnivore, that isn't hard to do, seeing as most meat has 10x the phosphate as calcium.

Seriously low phosphate might be indicative of a more serious problem, or something like excessive fasting/starvation.

youd need to get supermarket non organic beefs/meats, or processed fast foods to get those added phosphates right?

eh yeah fructose probably not, but niacinamide in a suppelement form, several hundreds mgs might have a big effect on phosphate.
wow, so if your calcium is like 1.5x the phosphate, you should have or achieve a fast metabolism as well as be better off than 99% of people?
would that high calcium intake, cause you to develop larger organs and glands, like a larger ****, bigger brain, thyroid, even height etc

ive found several foods which can help the ratio, in addition to avoiding all meat besides an ounce of liver a day, having milk , there are also shark cartilage or bovine bone supplements if youre looking to increase the ratio, and then theres also things like coconut water and orange juice. they have around 30mg or more per cup. im not sure of phosphorus in OJ but coconut water is actually more than 2:1, its 58mg calcium and 19mg phosphorus per 8oz, unless you get that harmless harvest brand which is supposedly the best and raw yet has like 300mg phosphorus and 60mg calcium per serving. any thoughts as to why harmless harvest supposed raw coconut water has a completely opposite different calcium phosphate ratio than regular pasteurized coconut water

i think these supplements like zinc, vitamin c, and niacinamide can have serious beneficial effects on people who are doing the typical modern processed diet of lots of meat/phosphate, drinking tap water, and eating iron fortified breads. the zinc will help nullify some of the iron in breads and excess copper from tap water, vitamin c helps with copper/chlorine from tap water, niacinamide can help phosphate. but if you have been peating for a while and avoiding those processed foods and tap water, the supplements could start to have more negative side effects.

doesnt calcium carbonate have some c02 boosting effects also

 

[Sefton10]

Been reading some of Ray’s old newsletters. No date on this one but looks like he didn’t always favour calcium over magnesium (final paragraph).

 

[Dr. B]

Been reading some of Ray’s old newsletters. No date on this one but looks like he didn’t always favour calcium over magnesium (final paragraph).

View attachment 25131

its difficult to get magnesium:calcium in even a 1:3 ratio if youre drinking a half gallon milk a day, unless you're supplementing some magnesium.

 

[Peatness]

Been reading some of Ray’s old newsletters. No date on this one but looks like he didn’t always favour calcium over magnesium (final paragraph).

View attachment 25131

You are right. Dr Peat does say 'a bias toward magnesium.' I've never been satisfied that Dr Peat appreciates how difficult it is to balance the ratio of calcium and magnesium with a milk rich diet.

 

[Sefton10]

its difficult to get magnesium:calcium in even a 1:3 ratio if youre drinking a half gallon milk a day, unless you're supplementing some magnesium.

You are right. Dr Peat does say 'a bias toward magnesium.' I've never been satisfied that Dr Peat appreciates how difficult it is to balance the ratio of calcium and magnesium with a milk rich diet.

Agree with you both, if consuming decent amounts of milk it’s pretty much impossible to get magnesium anywhere near calcium without supplementing it. Likewise if you lower calcium a bit to get it nearer to magnesium, you then run into excess phosphate to calcium.

 

[Dr. B]

Agree with you both, if consuming decent amounts of milk it’s pretty much impossible to get magnesium anywhere near calcium without supplementing it. Likewise if you lower calcium a bit to get it nearer to magnesium, you then run into excess phosphate to calcium.

actually the phosphorus and vitamin A should have an antagonistic effect on the calcium, which in the end is maybe partially what allows you to consume seemingly endless amounts of milk without getting hypercalcemia?
i think the values of nutrients for grass fed milk could be higher. you can get to the 450mg+ "rda" of magnesium if you have a half gallon milk plus some OJ and coconut water, and even more if you add in fruits and meats. coconut water has calcium:magnesium:phosphorus in a 21 ratio

 

[Peatness]

actually the phosphorus and vitamin A should have an antagonistic effect on the calcium, which in the end is maybe partially what allows you to consume seemingly endless amounts of milk without getting hypercalcemia?
i think the values of nutrients for grass fed milk could be higher. you can get to the 450mg+ "rda" of magnesium if you have a half gallon milk plus some OJ and coconut water, and even more if you add in fruits and meats. coconut water has calcium:magnesium:phosphorus in a 21 ratio

With half gallon milk of milk you would be looking at least 2000mg of calcium and to achieve a bias toward magnesium you would need over 2000mg of magnesium.

 

[tankasnowgod]

actually the phosphorus and vitamin A should have an antagonistic effect on the calcium, which in the end is maybe partially what allows you to consume seemingly endless amounts of milk without getting hypercalcemia?

If you look at the above studies, some patients were able to consume up to 17.5 grams of Calcium Carbonate a day without Hypercalcimia. That was only a few months, but the year long study used over 6 grams of Ca Carbonate a day with no hypercalcimia.

I'm sure it would vary from person to person, and those amounts might not be safe for everyone. But, with years (or decades) of higher phosphate consumption and higher levels of things like PTH and Prolactin, someone might be able to use higher amounts for a while (like several months) while mainly seeing benefits.

 

[Dr. B]

If you look at the above studies, some patients were able to consume up to 17.5 grams of Calcium Carbonate a day without Hypercalcimia. That was only a few months, but the year long study used over 6 grams of Ca Carbonate a day with no hypercalcimia.

I'm sure it would vary from person to person, and those amounts might not be safe for everyone. But, with years (or decades) of higher phosphate consumption and higher levels of things like PTH and Prolactin, someone might be able to use higher amounts for a while (like several months) while mainly seeing benefits.

doesnt the carbonate form raise c02 levels, something to do with the carbonate form not calcium itself? i used to use a toxic multivitamin with all kinds of carcinogenic fillers. i think it was the centrum adult multi. has food colors, binders, 18mg ferrous fumarate iron per serving which is probably the main issue with it. it also had 200mg calcium carbonate. i used to feel better while i was using it and i wonder if it was mostly due to the low doses of b vitamins plus the calcium carbonate. the calcium supposedly even mops up some of the iron so maybe you dont absorb much. it also had 2.3mg manganese and 11mg or 15mg zinc oxide.

 

[tankasnowgod]

doesnt the carbonate form raise c02 levels, something to do with the carbonate form not calcium itself?

The studies above talk about improvement of "carbon dioxide combining power," so I suspect something of the sort.

 

[GAF]

Just for "fun" I took six 1200mg calcium carbonate sat nite 7pm thru Sun noon. I have never supplemented calcium before except Tums for acid reflux. Never noticed any other effects. Never drank much milk.

Talk about a knock out drug! Slept all day Sunday and nite. Dreams like crazy. Just woke up from deep nap and more dreams.

 

[Dolomite]

Just for "fun" I took six 1200mg calcium carbonate sat nite 7pm thru Sun noon. I have never supplemented calcium before except Tums for acid reflux. Never noticed any other effects. Never drank much milk.

Talk about a knock out drug! Slept all day Sunday and nite. Dreams like crazy. Just woke up from deep nap and more dreams.

Just to clarify, you took a total of 7200 mg calcium carbonate over a 17 hour time span? I use some powdered eggshell in the morning but maybe I need to take some in the evening, too.

That is impressive.

 

[GAF]

Just to clarify, you took a total of 7200 mg calcium carbonate over a 17 hour time span? I use some powdered eggshell in the morning but maybe I need to take some in the evening, too.

That is impressive.

Definitely, calcium is a nighty night time sup. It's clear to me now why ice cream/milk is a beloved bedtime treat.

Wondering? What happens to all this calcium? I guess most of the excess gets pooped out, or does it undergo some chemical reaction that turns it into something else.

 

[Inaut]

Great thread so far !!! :) Thanks for this @tankasnowgod