Chelating agents for biofilm disruption

[WonMore]

Any idea how to decrease ALA absorption in the gut? I think taking it with carrot salad/mushrooms, anything else?
Alternatively, how to decrease its transport through BBB?
I want to incorporate it into my protocol for biofilm disruption in the intestines, so I'm looking to avoid systemic effect. I don't know how much mercury burden I have, I never had alagam plombs, but my mother definetely had, I would like not to take a risk
Also, any advice on what dosage of ALA and DMSA would be reasonable to use for this purpose?
I wonder how these two gonna interact with bismuth, which I plan to take too, as they chelating it as well:

Development of a therapeutic procedure for bismuth intoxication with chelating agents - PubMed

Although bismuth poisoning is still a rare phenomenon, the increasing use of bismuth-containing drugs warrants a systematic approach to the treatment of bismuth overdose. An effective method of enhancing the elimination of toxic amounts of bismuth from the body has not been reported. Therefore...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So would it be better to take them together or separately? What about other compounds, like essential oils, enzymes, vitamin C? Or even antibiotics?
I don't know much about chelators, so appreciate any input

 

[hierundjetzt]

Any idea how to decrease ALA absorption in the gut? I think taking it with carrot salad/mushrooms, anything else?
Alternatively, how to decrease its transport through BBB?
I want to incorporate it into my protocol for biofilm disruption in the intestines, so I'm looking to avoid systemic effect. I don't know how much mercury burden I have, I never had alagam plombs, but my mother definetely had, I would like not to take a risk
Also, any advice on what dosage of ALA and DMSA would be reasonable to use for this purpose?
I wonder how these two gonna interact with bismuth, which I plan to take too, as they chelating it as well:

Development of a therapeutic procedure for bismuth intoxication with chelating agents - PubMed

Although bismuth poisoning is still a rare phenomenon, the increasing use of bismuth-containing drugs warrants a systematic approach to the treatment of bismuth overdose. An effective method of enhancing the elimination of toxic amounts of bismuth from the body has not been reported. Therefore...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So would it be better to take them together or separately? What about other compounds, like essential oils, enzymes, vitamin C? Or even antibiotics?
I don't know much about chelators, so appreciate any input

In several sentences you referiert to "it" (I think taking it with carrot salad/mushrooms, anything else?
Alternatively, how to decrease its transport through BBB?). What is "it"?

 

[karw]

Have you considered supplementing with enzymes?

 

[Ben.]

Any idea how to decrease ALA absorption in the gut? I think taking it with carrot salad/mushrooms, anything else?
Alternatively, how to decrease its transport through BBB?
I want to incorporate it into my protocol for biofilm disruption in the intestines, so I'm looking to avoid systemic effect. I don't know how much mercury burden I have, I never had alagam plombs, but my mother definetely had, I would like not to take a risk
Also, any advice on what dosage of ALA and DMSA would be reasonable to use for this purpose?
I wonder how these two gonna interact with bismuth, which I plan to take too, as they chelating it as well:

Development of a therapeutic procedure for bismuth intoxication with chelating agents - PubMed

Although bismuth poisoning is still a rare phenomenon, the increasing use of bismuth-containing drugs warrants a systematic approach to the treatment of bismuth overdose. An effective method of enhancing the elimination of toxic amounts of bismuth from the body has not been reported. Therefore...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So would it be better to take them together or separately? What about other compounds, like essential oils, enzymes, vitamin C? Or even antibiotics?
I don't know much about chelators, so appreciate any input

I think you need to take ALA away from any food for absorption.
I mean you said you want it to chelate only in the digestive track but why? And aren't our organs connected just as much to our bloodvessels/supply? Thus you'd want it their either way, no?

The majority of aluminium for example is excreted anyways in our feces. Like 99% or something. Silicone Water (Fiji water for example) apparantly increases excretion of aluminium. Now this chelation is very specific, but i have no idea what you want to chelate exactly. ALA also chelates copper and whatnot.

I havent heard of chelators doing something about biofilms. Enzymes sound more apliccable to that if i remember correctly (which need to be taken away from food too for systemic use, or else theyll be used for digestion (?))

Ofcourse, take anything i said here with a big grain of salt.

 

[WonMore]

In several sentences you referiert to "it" (I think taking it with carrot salad/mushrooms, anything else?
Alternatively, how to decrease its transport through BBB?). What is "it"?

ALA = Alpha Lipoic Acid

Have you considered supplementing with enzymes?

I tried Nattokinase long time ago and now I take some simple ones from Swanson from time to time. I think I'll buy some better ones and incorporate it into the plan as a support, I don't think enzymes are able to handle the situation on their own in my case. Do you have any specific product to recommend?

I think you need to take ALA away from any food for absorption.
I mean you said you want it to chelate only in the digestive track but why? And aren't our organs connected just as much to our bloodvessels/supply? Thus you'd want it their either way, no?

The majority of aluminium for example is excreted anyways in our feces. Like 99% or something. Silicone Water (Fiji water for example) apparantly increases excretion of aluminium. Now this chelation is very specific, but i have no idea what you want to chelate exactly. ALA also chelates copper and whatnot.

I havent heard of chelators doing something about biofilms. Enzymes sound more apliccable to that if i remember correctly (which need to be taken away from food too for systemic use, or else theyll be used for digestion (?))

Ofcourse, take anything i said here with a big grain of salt.

The chelators are supposed to suck up metals, especially iron, from the biofilm matrix, thereby destroying it. I focus on GI tract because that is where my problem lays. I'm not sure about budging metals systemically because, firstly, I don't know the consequences of moving heavy metals around the body, and secondly, I don't want to chelate myself out of calcium, zinc etc. Also, ALA in itself got its drawbacks, raising nitric oxide and suppressing thyroid.
I've started DMSA already and I won't start ALA until Friday, so I hope it decreases a bit risk of mercury getting into the brain. I should know more about chelation before doing this. People seems to take ALA quite freely, supplements are everywhere.
How important is it to take chelators every 3-4 hours? What, if not?

 

[Ben.]

The chelators are supposed to suck up metals, especially iron, from the biofilm matrix, thereby destroying it. I focus on GI tract because that is where my problem lays.

Alright. That could make sense i guess with the carrot salad. Altough how do you know that it is/will not just bind/chelate to the metals in the food you consume/breakdown from digestion instead of the biofilms? Would be cool if this could be tested somehow.

I don't want to chelate myself out of calcium, zinc etc. Also, ALA in itself got its drawbacks, raising nitric oxide and suppressing thyroid.
I've started DMSA already and I won't start ALA until Friday, so I hope it decreases a bit risk of mercury getting into the brain. I should know more about chelation before doing this. People seems to take ALA quite freely, supplements are everywhere.

I get that, but isn't that a concern with chelation therapy in general? From what i understood from that chemist whatshisname protocol, is that DMSA etc. takes care of the metals in the body outside from the brain (as it does not pass the bloodbrainbarrier (??? atleast if i remember correctly)) and after your body is low in heavy metals, ALA will be used to chelate the metals in the brain as it does pass the bbb.

But since you do not plan to do it systemic wide i guess that doesnt matter ...

How important is it to take chelators every 3-4 hours? What, if not?

Mhh i would need to look up why ALA should be used every 3-4 hours. But i was wondering about it too when i first read it because it chelates wha it chelates so less use of ALA means just slower chelation/excretion? Especially waking up 1-2 times just for popping ALA sounds annoying and unhealthy.

Perhaps the body excretes it more readily if alot of it is chelated constantly/regulary instead of depositing it elsewhere in the body?

If you use it with the carrot salad and other stuff i guess not much will reach blood/system ... So this again is not much of a issue? Assuming your premise/plan is correct.

 

[yerrag]

It's painful to to try to read and understand what you're doing. You seem to be doing too many at one time. It's already hard enough doing one thing right. And then you mixing things up , like chelation and biofilm disruption.

You seem already at great difficulty defining what the problem is, and because of this you cannot hope to find a solution.

 

[Grapelander]

Natural Anti-Biofilm Agents​

Enzymes, like DNase I, α-amylase and DspB are biofilm-dispersing agents that degrade the biofilm matrix, permitting increased penetration of antibiotics.
Proteolytic enzymes like serrapeptase help the body break down protein involved in inflammation and mucous.

Quorum-Sensing (QS) is a form of communication bacteria use to cooperatively build biofilm communities. Usnic acid, a lichen metabolite, possesses inhibitory activity against bacterial and fungal biofilms via QS interference. Garlic inhibits the expression of several genes that control bacterial QS. A willow bark extract, hamamelitannin, also inhibits QS. Naturally occurring flavanols in cocoa may reverse memory decline significantly. Their ability to inhibit QS might provide a clue for their action.

Cranberry has a reputation for keeping bacteria from sticking to surfaces. The red pigments in cranberries have been shown to inhibit biofilm formation. These proanthocyanidins [PACs] have been reported to possess antimicrobial, anti-adhesion, antioxidant, and anti-inflammatory properties.

Chlorogenic acids (CGA), largely from coffee, are cinnamic acid derivatives with important antioxidant and anti-inflammatory activities.

Boswellic acids (Frankincense) are pentacyclic triterpenes, produced in plants belonging to the genus Boswellia, with potent anti-biofilm properties. Acetyl-11-keto-β-boswellic acid, which exhibited the most potent antibacterial activity, was effective against all 112 pathogenic gram positive bacteria tested.

Wheat bran extract exhibits anti-biofilm activity, inhibiting biofilm formation and destroying pre-formed S. aureus biofilm in dairy cows with mastitis.

Farnesol and xylitol were shown to possess antibiofilm and antibacterial effects when used in root canal irrigants.

Aspirin and many other naturally-occurring salicylates have been shown to inhibit the macromolecules that make up the biofilm matrix. Salicylates are produced by many plants in response to infection.

Several Salvia (Sage) species widely used as spices were evaluated for their antimicrobial activities, including their anti-adhesive and anti-biofilm effects.

Short- and medium-chain fatty acids exhibit antimicrobial activity. Formic, capric, and lauric acids are broadly inhibitory for bacteria. Undecylenic acid is another medium chain fatty acid known for its anti-biofilm ability – including the disruption of troubling biofilms of Candida albicans.

Silver is an important antimicrobial agent used as a coating to reduce bacterial adhesion to biomaterials and prevent infections. Silver ions increase bacterial membrane permeability, induce de-energization of cells, promote leakage of cellular content, and disrupt DNA replication.

Iron promotes EPS production and biofilm formation in many pathogenic, biofilm-producing bacteria. By tying up iron, lactoferrin could have anti-biofilm activity. Lactoferrin shows powerful anti-Candida and anti-bacterial properties.

Bismuth is an element in the earth’s crust (atomic number 83) with demonstrated anti-biofilm activity. It’s the only non-toxic heavy metal on the Periodic Chart. Bismuth seems to work by competitively inhibiting redox enzymes containing iron.

Chelation therapy with EDTA removes many of these heavy metals and shows anti-biofilm effects. Chelating agents show biofilm dispersing qualities because the biofilm matrix is held together largely by minerals like calcium, magnesium, and iron. Phosphate is involved also, to solidify the biofilm structure. EDTA weakens the structure of biofilms to allow the immune system or antibiotics to gain access to the microbes hiding deep within biofilm community. EDTA may supercharge antibiotics by 1000-fold.

N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC), at low milligram levels, was found to decrease biofilm formation by a variety of bacteria and reduced the production of EPS matrix, while promoting biofilm disruption.

Using detox agents like charcoal to mop up certain poisons and toxic metabolites, may conceivably protect the gut biofilm, and ward off pathogenic biofilms. Charcoal shows life-extending effects in laboratory rats.

Low-frequency ultrasound treatment in combination with antibiotics is promising for biofilm removal. Ultrasound facilitates transport of antibiotics across biofilms, and increases sensitivity of biofilm-growing bacteria to antibiotics. It has been used as a treatment for chronic rhinosinusitis. Ultrasound could conceivably be used in tandem with any one or more anti-biofilm agents.

Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) is one of the most useful health tools around. It’s alkalizing effects notwithstanding, antibiofilm activity may be one of the important reasons for its wide ranging benefits. Bicarbonates also work well with bismuth thiols, which show optimum effects at alkaline pH's. Potassium bicarbonate may be the preferred oral form of baking soda, since potassium offsets the ill effects of a high-sodium diet, helps build bones, lowers blood pressure, etc. It also raises the pH of urine to significantly improve host defenses against biofilms in the urinary tract.

 

[WonMore]

Alright. That could make sense i guess with the carrot salad. Altough how do you know that it is/will not just bind/chelate to the metals in the food you consume/breakdown from digestion instead of the biofilms? Would be cool if this could be tested somehow.



I get that, but isn't that a concern with chelation therapy in general? From what i understood from that chemist whatshisname protocol, is that DMSA etc. takes care of the metals in the body outside from the brain (as it does not pass the bloodbrainbarrier (??? atleast if i remember correctly)) and after your body is low in heavy metals, ALA will be used to chelate the metals in the brain as it does pass the bbb.

But since you do not plan to do it systemic wide i guess that doesnt matter ...



Mhh i would need to look up why ALA should be used every 3-4 hours. But i was wondering about it too when i first read it because it chelates wha it chelates so less use of ALA means just slower chelation/excretion? Especially waking up 1-2 times just for popping ALA sounds annoying and unhealthy.

Perhaps the body excretes it more readily if alot of it is chelated constantly/regulary instead of depositing it elsewhere in the body?

If you use it with the carrot salad and other stuff i guess not much will reach blood/system ... So this again is not much of a issue? Assuming your premise/plan is correct.

I found this:

https://us.simplerousercontent.net/uploads/asset/file/4418583/HANDOUT-Bismuth-Thiol-Complex-Dr.-Paul-Anderson-11-11-2020.pdf

So there is some reason to take it on empty stomach - perhaps binding metals from food like you said.

DMSA and ALA should work like you described, I'm wondering how much quakery is in these protocols and whether I should make one full 3-days round of chelation before I settle on one daily dosage, or don't bother at all because it only makes things worse. DMSA is definitely chelating something, because I see pitch black stool today.
I hope bismuth oxide, instead of subnitrate, is legit to make the reaction and, if not compounded beforehand, it's gonna bind with ALA/DMSA in the stomach anyway, because here's where I diverge from protocol.

It's painful to to try to read and understand what you're doing. You seem to be doing too many at one time. It's already hard enough doing one thing right. And then you mixing things up , like chelation and biofilm disruption.

You seem already at great difficulty defining what the problem is, and because of this you cannot hope to find a solution.

Chelation = biofilm disruption in this case.
The plan looks clumsy and I'm aware of that, but that's because the problem is complex and barely explored. I wish I knew some better solution.

Natural Anti-Biofilm Agents​

Enzymes, like DNase I, α-amylase and DspB are biofilm-dispersing agents that degrade the biofilm matrix, permitting increased penetration of antibiotics.
Proteolytic enzymes like serrapeptase help the body break down protein involved in inflammation and mucous.

Quorum-Sensing (QS) is a form of communication bacteria use to cooperatively build biofilm communities. Usnic acid, a lichen metabolite, possesses inhibitory activity against bacterial and fungal biofilms via QS interference. Garlic inhibits the expression of several genes that control bacterial QS. A willow bark extract, hamamelitannin, also inhibits QS. Naturally occurring flavanols in cocoa may reverse memory decline significantly. Their ability to inhibit QS might provide a clue for their action.

Cranberry has a reputation for keeping bacteria from sticking to surfaces. The red pigments in cranberries have been shown to inhibit biofilm formation. These proanthocyanidins [PACs] have been reported to possess antimicrobial, anti-adhesion, antioxidant, and anti-inflammatory properties.

Chlorogenic acids (CGA), largely from coffee, are cinnamic acid derivatives with important antioxidant and anti-inflammatory activities.

Boswellic acids (Frankincense) are pentacyclic triterpenes, produced in plants belonging to the genus Boswellia, with potent anti-biofilm properties. Acetyl-11-keto-β-boswellic acid, which exhibited the most potent antibacterial activity, was effective against all 112 pathogenic gram positive bacteria tested.

Wheat bran extract exhibits anti-biofilm activity, inhibiting biofilm formation and destroying pre-formed S. aureus biofilm in dairy cows with mastitis.

Farnesol and xylitol were shown to possess antibiofilm and antibacterial effects when used in root canal irrigants.

Aspirin and many other naturally-occurring salicylates have been shown to inhibit the macromolecules that make up the biofilm matrix. Salicylates are produced by many plants in response to infection.

Several Salvia (Sage) species widely used as spices were evaluated for their antimicrobial activities, including their anti-adhesive and anti-biofilm effects.

Short- and medium-chain fatty acids exhibit antimicrobial activity. Formic, capric, and lauric acids are broadly inhibitory for bacteria. Undecylenic acid is another medium chain fatty acid known for its anti-biofilm ability – including the disruption of troubling biofilms of Candida albicans.

Silver is an important antimicrobial agent used as a coating to reduce bacterial adhesion to biomaterials and prevent infections. Silver ions increase bacterial membrane permeability, induce de-energization of cells, promote leakage of cellular content, and disrupt DNA replication.

Iron promotes EPS production and biofilm formation in many pathogenic, biofilm-producing bacteria. By tying up iron, lactoferrin could have anti-biofilm activity. Lactoferrin shows powerful anti-Candida and anti-bacterial properties.

Bismuth is an element in the earth’s crust (atomic number 83) with demonstrated anti-biofilm activity. It’s the only non-toxic heavy metal on the Periodic Chart. Bismuth seems to work by competitively inhibiting redox enzymes containing iron.

Chelation therapy with EDTA removes many of these heavy metals and shows anti-biofilm effects. Chelating agents show biofilm dispersing qualities because the biofilm matrix is held together largely by minerals like calcium, magnesium, and iron. Phosphate is involved also, to solidify the biofilm structure. EDTA weakens the structure of biofilms to allow the immune system or antibiotics to gain access to the microbes hiding deep within biofilm community. EDTA may supercharge antibiotics by 1000-fold.

N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC), at low milligram levels, was found to decrease biofilm formation by a variety of bacteria and reduced the production of EPS matrix, while promoting biofilm disruption.

Using detox agents like charcoal to mop up certain poisons and toxic metabolites, may conceivably protect the gut biofilm, and ward off pathogenic biofilms. Charcoal shows life-extending effects in laboratory rats.

Low-frequency ultrasound treatment in combination with antibiotics is promising for biofilm removal. Ultrasound facilitates transport of antibiotics across biofilms, and increases sensitivity of biofilm-growing bacteria to antibiotics. It has been used as a treatment for chronic rhinosinusitis. Ultrasound could conceivably be used in tandem with any one or more anti-biofilm agents.

Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) is one of the most useful health tools around. It’s alkalizing effects notwithstanding, antibiofilm activity may be one of the important reasons for its wide ranging benefits. Bicarbonates also work well with bismuth thiols, which show optimum effects at alkaline pH's. Potassium bicarbonate may be the preferred oral form of baking soda, since potassium offsets the ill effects of a high-sodium diet, helps build bones, lowers blood pressure, etc. It also raises the pH of urine to significantly improve host defenses against biofilms in the urinary tract.

Thank you very much for this, I'll definitely be looking into this stuff. I didn't know about baking soda, it seems like it should work synergistically with what I'm doing

 

[FoodForeal]

Raw milk is a chelating agent and anti-fungal anti-bacterial anti-biofilm.

If you ingest anything processed (anything but whole foods and things you've cooked up from whole food ingredients) you are likely increasing your heavy metal intake.

I believe raw pasture raised milk should be regularly consumed as a prophylactic against free iron toxicity. It should also be included in recipes wherever possible so that raw milk can be mixed and in contact with the ingredients for as long as possible in an unheated unfrozen state so as to allow the raw milk to detox the food.

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[Grapelander]

Bicarbonates also work well with bismuth

If you are looking for a bismuth without metal/color additives I recommend 'Percy Medicine'.