William Brown ate 5g of Calcium and 4g of Phosphourus a day......

tankasnowgod

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.... during the Extremely Low Fat experiment, based on current day values for skim milk.

Ever since Haidut mentioned the "Bioenergetic Burger," I've been thinking more about the importance of the Calcium to Phosphorus ratio. I realized that the Ca:P ratio in the WIlliam Brown experiment would be favorable pretty consistently. Peat himself thinks the drop in serum phosphorus was important-


In a 1938 experiment (Brown, et al.) that intended to show the essentiality of unsaturated fats, a man, William Brown, lived for six months on a 2500 calorie diet consisting of sucrose syrup, a gallon of milk (some of it in the form of cottage cheese), and the juice of half an orange, besides some vitamins and minerals. The experimenters remarked about the surprising disappearance of the normal fatigue after a day's work, as well as the normalization of his high blood pressure and high cholesterol, and the permanent disappearance of his frequent life-long migraine headaches. His respiratory quotient increased (producing more carbon dioxide), as well as his rate of resting metabolism. I think the most interesting part of the experiment was that his blood phosphate decreased. In two measurements during the experimental diet, his fasting plasma inorganic phosphorus was 3.43 and 2.64 mg. per 100 ml. of plasma, and six month after he had returned to a normal diet the number was 4.2 mg/100 ml. Both the deficiency of the "essential" unsaturated fatty acids, and the high sucrose intake probably contributed to lowering the phosphate.

It's almost a bit odd that Peat doesn't cite the Calcium to Phosphate ratio. I think the other factors he mentioned may have indeed contributed (especially the high sucrose intake). The cottage cheese meal might have lowered the ratio a bit, but if the cows weren't fed grains, that might have raised the overall ratio. Regardless, 1.25:1 is still a pretty good estimate, and likely better than most people eat today, and even in Brown's day.

4g of Phosphorus a day is pretty high, but the higher Calcium itself likely did a lot to offset it. Calcium Carbonate has been studied as a "Phosphate Binder," and in this experiment, it was almost as effective as Aluminum Hydroxide-


Some of the improvements noted in William Brown have an overlap with testimonials I was reading about Parathyroid Surgery-


Especially the disappearance of Fatigue, and normalizing of Blood Pressure and Blood Lipids. The Brown diet certainly lowered serum phosphate, and likely Parathyroid Hormone as well.

Maybe you don't have to eliminate every last dietary gram of PUFA to reap a lot of the benefits of the experiment. Maybe just keep sugar high, fat low-ish (maybe higher with CO), PUFA pretty low, and Calcium above Phosphate, and maybe closer to that 5g a day level.
 

gaze

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when I started reaching 3000 mg of calcium a day, I started feeling a bit anxious, and on my blood test my calcium was above the range and my PTH was below the range. When I cut back down on calcium, now I usually get around 1500, and increased magnesium, my calcium is now in the middle of the ideal range and my PTH is still low.

Thats just my anecdote, Ray told me over email there is no upper limit for calcium, and theoretically more the better, but that was not my experience.
 

Sefton10

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when I started reaching 3000 mg of calcium a day, I started feeling a bit anxious, and on my blood test my calcium was above the range and my PTH was below the range. When I cut back down on calcium, now I usually get around 1500, and increased magnesium, my calcium is now in the middle of the ideal range and my PTH is still low.

Thats just my anecdote, Ray told me over email there is no upper limit for calcium, and theoretically more the better, but that was not my experience.
I definitely feel better with higher calcium when I keep magnesium up too. At least 2:1, so around 2g calcium and 1g magnesium at the minute.
 

Serge

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As someone who can't tolerate milk as such I was looking for alternatives and I discovered that kelp has a lot of calcium and a good calcium to phosphorus ratio, if we want to trust USDA data (per 500g):

kelp.PNG

Plenty of magnesium too. On the other hand, a lot of iron and who knows what else the seaweed accumulates.
just my 5 cents.
 

Sefton10

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As someone who can't tolerate milk as such I was looking for alternatives and I discovered that kelp has a lot of calcium and a good calcium to phosphorus ratio, if we want to trust USDA data (per 500g):

View attachment 24576

Plenty of magnesium too. On the other hand, a lot of iron and who knows what else the seaweed accumulates.
just my 5 cents.
The amount of iodine in 500g of kelp would not be a good idea!
 

Sefton10

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that too, but are low thyroid people threatened by too much iodine?
I think that would be Ray’s view. Some people on the forum speak favourably about iodine supplementation though.

I should clarify my earlier comment - I was meaning/assuming the dried kelp powder. I suppose 500g of raw kelp wouldn’t be as big a potential issue, not sure which the crono screenshot was for.
 

Hans

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As someone who can't tolerate milk as such I was looking for alternatives and I discovered that kelp has a lot of calcium and a good calcium to phosphorus ratio, if we want to trust USDA data (per 500g):

View attachment 24576

Plenty of magnesium too. On the other hand, a lot of iron and who knows what else the seaweed accumulates.
just my 5 cents.
Eggshell calcium, oyster shell calcium or coral calcium are great sources of calcium.
 

Serge

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I suppose 500g of raw kelp wouldn’t be as big a potential issue, not sure which the crono screenshot was for.
Raw, 500g dry powder will be equivalent to at least 5 kg of raw seaweed if not 10 or more :) I dry it myself, a heavy bag of raw stuff becomes almost weightless after 3 days of drying.

Eggshell calcium, oyster shell calcium or coral calcium are great sources of calcium.

Yes but I was looking for food rather than supplement. I used eggshell melted in vinegar but somehow never continued...
 

GreenTrails

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Has anyone here read the book, "Death by Calcium" by Dr. Thomas Levy, cardiologist? I'm in the middle of reading it. It's available online as a download.
 

Hans

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Raw, 500g dry powder will be equivalent to at least 5 kg of raw seaweed if not 10 or more :) I dry it myself, a heavy bag of raw stuff becomes almost weightless after 3 days of drying.



Yes but I was looking for food rather than supplement. I used eggshell melted in vinegar but somehow never continued...
Oh ok. Not a lot of food is really high in calcium. Most veggies that are high in calcium are also high in anti-nutrients or thyroid antagonists.
 

shine

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Has anyone here read the book, "Death by Calcium" by Dr. Thomas Levy, cardiologist? I'm in the middle of reading it. It's available online as a download.

What is it about? Calcium in arteries bad = dairy bad?
 

Tim Lundeen

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As far as I can tell, kelp is high fluoride. Perhaps offset somewhat by its iodine content, but not sure it is safe especially in high quantities.
 

GreenTrails

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What is it about? Calcium in arteries bad = dairy bad?
Essentially, yes. He talks about osteoporosis, which he said "In clinical terms, the major cause of osteoporosis is a focal scurvy of the bones." He talks a lot about vitamin C in the prevention of bone loss and fractures. He says, "A female's loss of estrogen quickly results in osteoporotic calcium loss." (I can vouch for that.) He says Vitamin C "compensates for this loss." He says that excess calcium promotes heart disease; a person is 30% more likely to have a heart attack, and up to 20% more likely to have a stroke if you take an extra 500 mg. of calcium or more per day.

He said that those with calcium intakes over 1,400 mg./day had 40% increased risk of death from cardio disease and 114% increase of death from reduced flow of blood to heart muscle (ischemic heart disease.) He also says that calcium supplementation significantly increased total cholesterol levels in post menopausal women. He says "Calcium and cancer are bedfellows."

He says: Oxidative stress is a causal factor in all degenerative diseases, especially cancer; increased extracellular calcium always increases oxidative stress.

He says that Vitamin C is the front line defender against oxidative stress. He says that "The elimination of Vitamin C deficiencies and their causes is a required first step in preventing and treating both osteoporosis and atherosclerosis.

He also talks about the importance of magnesium and vitamin K2. He talks about the importance of hormones; estrogen, testosterone and thyroid for bone health. He says that "hot flashes" correlate to lower levels of plasma antioxidants, increased cardiac risk factors and a higher risk of aortic calcification.

Like I said, I am only half through the book, but this is all sounding very important to me. I had breast cancer last year, and I suspect that he's right about calcium and cancer, plus I was hospitalized twice with TIAs. When I had the mammogram, I was told that I had calcium deposits in my breasts, a prelude to developing cancer. I was taking a supplement of calcium d glucarate, and before that, crushing egg shells and taking those, plus drinking a glass of homemade kefir daily and 7 oz. of homemade yogurt/daily. He says "Regular ingestion of milk as a beverage needs to be completely avoided." He says that from age 36 - 80 a person should have only 200 - 300 mg. of calcium/daily.

For me, I've upped my vitamin C intake, and I also take vitamin E, and I have cut back on milk. He says that antioxidants are very important.

It makes me more sure than ever, that a person needs to research their conditions to find answers. Not often do answers and help come from a person's doctor. Why couldn't my doctor have recommended vitamin C in high doses to me for osteoporosis instead of just NOTHING. I've had to find things out for myself. And I suspect that if I tell my doctor that what I need is high doses of vitamin C, he would pay no attention. I get answers to my concerns from Dr. Levy on the internet. That's great that we have resources to research.
 
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tankasnowgod

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Essentially, yes. He talks about osteoporosis, which he said "In clinical terms, the major cause of osteoporosis is a focal scurvy of the bones." He talks a lot about vitamin C in the prevention of bone loss and fractures. He says, "A female's loss of estrogen quickly results in osteoporotic calcium loss." (I can vouch for that.) He says Vitamin C "compensates for this loss." He says that excess calcium promotes heart disease; a person is 30% more likely to have a heart attack, and up to 20% more likely to have a stroke if you take an extra 500 mg. of calcium or more per day.

He said that those with calcium intakes over 1,400 mg./day had 40% increased risk of death from cardio disease and 114% increase of death from reduced flow of blood to heart muscle (ischemic heart disease.)
He also says that calcium supplementation significantly increased total cholesterol levels in post menopausal women. He says "Calcium and cancer are bedfellows."

What is Levy's source for these claims? Claims of "40% increased risk" and such are usually either from long term studies where they check in on participants once a year, and often represent a difference of something like 2-3 people per thousand or ten thousand in a group, making any difference sound much bigger than it actually is.

Peat has addressed the idea of calcium intake and calcification of soft tissues, and how low calcium intake here usually leads to soft tissue calcification-


Here's a study where patients supplemented from 3.36 to 6.72 grams of calcium carbonate a day, and were followed for up to 12 months. No mention is made of calcification of arteries, nor of any issues with heart problems, and the participants all held their serum calcium in the normal range for the duration of the study-


Peat has cautioned against some supplemental forms of calcium (like calcium citrate). Personally, I think Peat's recommendations on Calcium make more sense than Levy's. Especially since both iron and phosphates have dramatically increased in modern diets, and both these things antagonize calcium levels.
 
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tankasnowgod

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Like I said, I am only half through the book, but this is all sounding very important to me. I had breast cancer last year, and I suspect that he's right about calcium and cancer, plus I was hospitalized twice with TIAs. When I had the mammogram, I was told that I had calcium deposits in my breasts, a prelude to developing cancer. I was taking a supplement of calcium d glucarate, and before that, crushing egg shells and taking those, plus drinking a glass of homemade kefir daily and 7 oz. of homemade yogurt/daily. He says "Regular ingestion of milk as a beverage needs to be completely avoided." He says that from age 36 - 80 a person should have only 200 - 300 mg. of calcium/daily.

Calcium D Glucarate has very little calcium. It's about 60mg per 500mg tablet. It's more for the glucarate than calcium.

The glass of kefir and the 7oz of homade yogurt probably had about 250mg a calcium each (plus about 200mg phosphorus each).

So, from those, you might have been getting 560mg of calcium a day. That's not a lot, and not even near the RDA of 1000mg. I don't know how many eggshells you were taking, or how often, but you might have had quite a low calcium intake, not high.
 

GreenTrails

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What is Levy's source for these claims? Claims of "40% increased risk" and such are usually either from long term studies where they check in on participants once a year, and often represent a difference of something like 2-3 people per thousand or ten thousand in a group, making any difference sound much bigger than it actually is.

Peat has addressed the idea of calcium intake and calcification of soft tissues, and how low calcium intake here usually leads to soft tissue calcification-


Here's a study where patients supplemented from 3.36 to 6.72 grams of calcium carbonate a day, and were followed for up to 12 months. No mention is made of calcification of arteries, nor of any issues with heart problems, and the participants all held their serum calcium in the normal range for the duration of the study-


Peat has cautioned against some supplemental forms of calcium (like calcium citrate). Personally, I think Peat's recommendations on Calcium make more sense than Levy's. Especially since both iron and phosphates have dramatically increased in modern diets, and both these things antagonize calcium levels.
Levy's sources are pretty solid. If you're really interested in what he has to say, you probably need to read his book.
 
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tankasnowgod

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Levy's sources are pretty solid. If you're really interested in what he has to say, you probably need to read his book.

If his sources are "solid," you should be able to post a link to the study. He should have cited it in the footnotes or endnotes. I'm not so much interested in what he has to say, so much as what he's basing it on.
 

GreenTrails

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If his sources are "solid," you should be able to post a link to the study. He should have cited it in the footnotes or endnotes. I'm not so much interested in what he has to say, so much as what he's basing it on.

View: https://youtu.be/iNZMheTi7RA


The video that I watched on YouTube was "The Liz Earle Wellbeing Show"; The Truth About Vitamin C with Dr. Thomas E. Levy. I hope this may be of interest to you; for me, it was very helpful.
 

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