A Reply To Ray Peat On Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency

[pboy]

no one but Peat knows this...

from what ive read, the plant omegas (linoleic linolenic) are stable at body temp granted you aarent already sick. Its only the fish oil and arachadonic acid, DHA EDP and AA that spontaneously combust at room temp and create liver spots, skin damage, all that kind of thing. Oxidize iron, ect. Theres little reason to eat nuts and seeds, so the way I go about it is that the naturally occurring omega 3/6 linoleic/linolenic in the diet are fine and might or might not be beneficial. I don't eat foods that already contain the preformed DHA/EPD/AA...its actually dangerous to do so, and indeed, they are the main causes of 'aging' and skin spots and all that. Fish oil is like...yea, it shouldn't legally be allowed to be sold. The sad thing is how many people bought it without ever questioning...I mean, no one questions where oil from a fish comes from? lol...that smells rancid? They pile up all the bad and rotten fish, that cant be sold, and squeeze them in a large press for their guts goo and juice, and then put it through a filter. I mean that's like one of the most nasty things ever, its like if you piled up a bunch of roadkill and squeezed the oil out of them and sold it as 'essential fatty acids'. So shame on the companies who sell fish oil and advertise it and doctors who promote it, but just as much shame on all the fools who buy it and eat it...I mean, you have to be so gullible youre actually dangerous to do that. Imagine the type of ***t a bad leader could convince such gullible people to do? I always bring it back to the milgram experiement...and for sure, the same people dumb enough to buy fish oil without question, are the same type of people who would administer dangerous shock levels to innocents just because a doctor in a lab coat behind them was saying it was ok, and to keep going

 

[Peata]

Its only the fish oil and arachadonic acid, DHA EDP and AA that spontaneously combust at room temp and create liver spots, skin damage, all that kind of thing. Oxidize iron, ect...... I don't eat foods that already contain the preformed DHA/EPD/AA...its actually dangerous to do so, and indeed, they are the main causes of 'aging' and skin spots and all that.

Once more if you will, please clarify which foods you have in mind which supply arachodonic acid, dpa, edpa, aa, and already contain preformed.. Thanks.

 

[pboy]

fatty fish are the main culprit (salmon, halibut the worse). Fatty chicken and pork would be next. Any other fatty meat might have some, but if its a shellfish, white fish, or really lean it probably doesn't have any or a significant amount. Eggs have a little, but same thing...unless you eat a massive amount or buy DHA infused or 'enhanced' its usually such a small amount it isn't a problem

dairy fats and all plant based fats are free of these

the association of people eating a lot of saturated fat and cholesterol to clogged arteries, oxidation of cholesterol and others, heart attacks, all that...and the reason they cant pin it on cholesterol or saturated fat because levels always vary, is likely this...because of these preformed long chain PUFAS. When people eat a lot of meat fat, eggs, fish and fish oil, its not the cholesterol or saturated fat that is a problem (its actually a benefit), its the AA, DHA, and EPA. This is why whole milk, ghee, coconut oil, palm oil and all that are actually beneficial for the heart, benficial for the body at large, even though they contain saturated fat and cholesterol, and studies confirm this. So all the stuff we hear about saturated fat and cholesterol that's bad is actually talking about AA, DHA, and EPA, not saturated fat and cholesterol

 

[gretchen]

For almost 3 years I've ingested pretty much no major sources of PUFA. I have recently developed an itchiness on my lower left shin that I scratched to the point of bleeding. Just the other day it occurred to me that I might have an essential fatty acid deficiency. The idea horrifies me, and am aware of Peat's belief that it's due to needing more nutrients. I'm not sure how that can be possible considering how many nutritious foods I've added and supplements I've been taking.

 

[narouz]

For almost 3 years I've ingested pretty much no major sources of PUFA. I have recently developed an itchiness on my lower left shin that I scratched to the point of bleeding. Just the other day it occurred to me that I might have an essential fatty acid deficiency. The idea horrifies me, and am aware of Peat's belief that it's due to needing more nutrients. I'm not sure how that can be possible considering how many nutritious foods I've added and supplements I've been taking.

The itch could be caused by many other things, gretchen.
Don't go off the deep end here
and start eating PUFA.
(Or bleach!! )

 

[tara]

For almost 3 years I've ingested pretty much no major sources of PUFA. I have recently developed an itchiness on my lower left shin that I scratched to the point of bleeding. Just the other day it occurred to me that I might have an essential fatty acid deficiency. The idea horrifies me, and am aware of Peat's belief that it's due to needing more nutrients. I'm not sure how that can be possible considering how many nutritious foods I've added and supplements I've been taking.

The itch could be caused by many other things, gretchen.
Don't go off the deep end here
and start eating PUFA.
(Or bleach!! )

I've had itchy shins lately too.
One hypothesis that's just percolated through my brain (aided by someone's post but I've forgotten who/where) is that maybe I've been so successful at lowering chronically high stress hormones, that their anti-inflamatory effect is now much reduced, leaving my a bit more vulnerable to whatever else might be irritating me.

I've been restricting PUFAs for about 2 years now, but I don't think I've managed to get it as low as some people here. I have been supplementing B vits for many months too, so I doubt that is my current issue.
There are quite few other avenues I'd rather explore than resuming high PUFA consumption. :)

I've been greasing them up daily after showering, which helps but not enough.

 

[gretchen]

For almost 3 years I've ingested pretty much no major sources of PUFA. I have recently developed an itchiness on my lower left shin that I scratched to the point of bleeding. Just the other day it occurred to me that I might have an essential fatty acid deficiency. The idea horrifies me, and am aware of Peat's belief that it's due to needing more nutrients. I'm not sure how that can be possible considering how many nutritious foods I've added and supplements I've been taking.

The itch could be caused by many other things, gretchen.
Don't go off the deep end here
and start eating PUFA.
(Or bleach!! )

Too late. :-? I don't know what to believe anymore, narouz. Now I'm wondering if there aren't other factors to consider such as the lack of saturated fats and cholesterol in my diet throughout my life other than some ghee, eggs and a little bit of red meat in my 30s. I think that and a lack of red light is what messed up my hormones as much as anything else.

What other things could cause the itching? I've never had eczema btw, don't have sensitive skin etc.

 

[tara]

What other things could cause the itching? I've never had eczema btw, don't have sensitive skin etc.

I've never had eczema before last year either, and didn't consider myself to have sensitive skin either.

Allergy to something we are eating?
Sensitivity to something in the soaps, cloths wash detergents, we are using, etc?
Some nutrient deficiency or imbalance we haven't identified yet? (I'm going to try a little extra vit-C as my next tack.)
General depletion from undereating having set us up to be a bit vulnerable or a bit slow to repair, which has just surfaced in the skin now?

 

[cantstoppeating]

There's nothing new in her response and it's as though she didn't bother reading anything of Peat but the sound bites: she simply regurgitated a textbook description of PUFA without addressing the underlying cell theory (I.e. Ling).

 

[cantstoppeating]

For almost 3 years I've ingested pretty much no major sources of PUFA. I have recently developed an itchiness on my lower left shin that I scratched to the point of bleeding. Just the other day it occurred to me that I might have an essential fatty acid deficiency. The idea horrifies me, and am aware of Peat's belief that it's due to needing more nutrients. I'm not sure how that can be possible considering how many nutritious foods I've added and supplements I've been taking.

Experiment with 10g of PUFA a day for 7 days and report back. If things get worse you can go fat free for a few weeks to deplete the PUFA. If things go favourably you'll heal your itch. Either way you'll no longer be burdened with worry about the essentiality of PUFA.

 

[burtlancast]

Peat also asserts that polyunsaturated fatty acids become rancid in our bodies. This is not true; the polyunsaturated fatty acids in our cell membranes go through different stages of controlled oxidation. To say that these fatty acids become "rancid" is misleading.

"Rancidification is the hydrolysis and/or autoxidation of fats into short-chain aldehydes and ketones.

Oxidative rancidity is associated with the degradation by oxygen in the air. Via a free radical process, the double bonds of an unsaturated fatty acid can undergo cleavage, releasing volatile aldehydes and ketones. Oxidation primarily occurs with unsaturated fats. For example, even though meat is held under refrigeration or in a frozen state, the poly-unsaturated fat will continue to oxidize and slowly become rancid.

If not terminated fast enough, there will be damage to the cell membrane, which consists mainly of lipids. Phototherapy may cause hemolysis by rupturing red blood cell cell membranes in this way.[2]

In addition, end-products of lipid peroxidation may be mutagenic and carcinogenic.[3] For instance, the end-product malondialdehyde reacts with deoxyadenosine and deoxyguanosine in DNA, forming DNA adducts to them, primarily M1G.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancidification

With this kind of scientific (dis)honnesty, is there any wonder the Weston Price foundation website has blocked people from commenting on their articles ?

 

[mas]

Cod Liver Oil: Our Most important Superfood
(Weston Price Foundation)

Cod Liver Oil
Once a standard supplement in traditional European societies, cod liver oil provides fat-soluble vitamins A and D, which Dr. Price found present in the diet of “primitives” in amounts ten times higher than the typical American diet of his day. Cod liver oil supplements are a must for women and their male partners, to be taken for several months before conception, and for women during pregnancy. Growing children will also benefit greatly from a small daily dose.
Dr. Price always gave cod liver oil with butter oil, extracted by centrifuge from good quality spring or fall butter. He found that cod liver oil on its own was relatively ineffective but combined with butter oil produced excellent results. Your diet should include both good quality, organic butter and cod liver oil.

http://www.westonaprice.org

If cod liver oil is so great, why add butter? Perhaps to counterbalance the rancidty?

The claim that it was once a standard supplement in traditional European societies seems a bit dodgy. Can the Weston Price writers give citations that this was the case or are they steeped in fairy tales??

 

[gretchen]

:P

For almost 3 years I've ingested pretty much no major sources of PUFA. I have recently developed an itchiness on my lower left shin that I scratched to the point of bleeding. Just the other day it occurred to me that I might have an essential fatty acid deficiency. The idea horrifies me, and am aware of Peat's belief that it's due to needing more nutrients. I'm not sure how that can be possible considering how many nutritious foods I've added and supplements I've been taking.

Experiment with 10g of PUFA a day for 7 days and report back. If things get worse you can go fat free for a few weeks to deplete the PUFA. If things go favourably you'll heal your itch. Either way you'll no longer be burdened with worry about the essentiality of PUFA.

I've eaten a can of sardines a day the last month which isn't 10 grams.... there's no way I'd eat that much. I'm waking up early without an alarm and feel great. The itch is more or less gone. PUFA is essential (probably) and likely it does slow the metabolism..... because that is either how our bodies were designed to work or how we've evolved over thousands of years. Fish is a natural thing to eat; it makes no sense whatsoever to eliminate it.

I watched a bit of a Peat video last night. He doesn't look that healthy. His skin is reddened and dry looking. That's enough evidence for me.

 

[EnoreeG]

the thing people never talk about or mention is this...out of the omega 3 and 6 in our bodies, and the composition of breastmilk, about 95% of it is the initial linoleic and linolenic acid, and they serve membrane potential. Only 5% is actually converted into EPA, DHA, and arachadonic acid. Our bodies are very careful about when they do this because once converted (elongated) the DHA, EPA, Arachadonic acid becomes unstable and prone to oxidation and free radical set off. They also must go through multiple oxidation steps in the peroxisomes before being fit to enter the mitochondria to provide fuel. This is an energy sapping process. Regular linoleic and linolenic acid can quite easily be oxidized for energy just like oleic acid, and aren't very hard to deal with or prone to oxidation once in the body and if originally fresh. So basically what Im saying is this....all the stuff peat says about PUFAs being bad is true, but it only applies to already formed Arachadonic acid, DHA, and EPA...basically what you would only get in fish, meat, and a tiny amount in eggs. Not even milk has any of these, 0. Fish oil is like the worst thing you could take. As for linoleic and linolenic? they are pretty neutral like olive oil granted they aren't oxidized or roasted before you eat it. If you ate it in a fresh raw form it would be hardly different or more noticeable, if at all, from olive oil or something like that. So basically, pre oxidized fat of any kind is harmful, and the elongated DHA, EPA, and AA are harmful from the diet. Normal pufa, basically all 18 carbon fats...oleic acid, stearic acid, linoleic acid, linolenic adic, granted they are fresh, are neutral to metabolism and not that hard to deal with. I don't recommend eating nuts and seeds for other reasons, but the fresh 18 carbon 3's and 6's aren't really any kind of deal at all

Well said, pboy. You put issues into perspective, and that perspective is highly needed on this forum. While Peat condemns PUFA outright in some articles, that might not be bad for newbies who have lived most of their life on excessive, refined PUFA. Good that they get the idea. But for people who have been off processed foods for a few years, and have figured how to eat, I think it is high time to introduce them to a little more detail and elaborate on the issue as you have, to show that it's not going to be damaging to have an intake of fresh-sourced unsaturated fats, even omega-6 and omega-3. It doesn't even matter whether you believe they are essential or not. And it doesn't help to try to avoid them. They are in all foods, as they are part of cell structure. If one eats a diet of fresh, unprocess, and lightly (if at all) cooked foods, they are protecting the viability of the PUFA that they will get in properly very small quantities.

Himsahimsa made about the same points over a year ago on this thread:

Peat addressed the "dry coat" issue as an experimental error that was corrected by one of the B vitamins, I think B6.

As I read him, he does not really say that PUFAs are always absolutely bad. If they were, we would all already be dead. I think he is pointing out that in a normal environment we would be getting PUFAs in very small doses, like a gram or two a week, (because they are part of everything that qualifies as food and simply can't be totally avoided), and in that case maybe they could be put to some good use or got rid of... As appropriate. The modern problem is that we are drowning in PUFAs and their rancid permutations and the constant onslaught disrupts and poisons everything. We are so overloaded there is no hope of dealing with them harmlessly.

That's it. No worries (if you're off refined PUFA). And definitely don't take supplements. I read a study recently (like Consumer Reports?) that said many omega-3 supplements were tested, and around 80% turned out to be rancid. Hmmm.

pboy -- Keep up the rational thinking!

 

[YuraCZ]

I've eaten a can of sardines a day the last month which isn't 10 grams.... there's no way I'd eat that much. I'm waking up early without an alarm and feel great. The itch is more or less gone. PUFA is essential (probably) and likely it does slow the metabolism..... because that is either how our bodies were designed to work or how we've evolved over thousands of years. Fish is a natural thing to eat; it makes no sense whatsoever to eliminate it.

I watched a bit of a Peat video last night. He doesn't look that healthy. His skin is reddened and dry looking. That's enough evidence for me.

I must agree with this. Fishing is as old as humanity itself. People who fishing at sea and eat fish everyday are unhealthy? They eat a lot of omega 3 from the fatty fish. I want to know some good arguments to this.. If nothing then high omega 3 content in the fatty fish can balance omega 3 to 6 ratio.

 

[Zachs]

One of the countries highest in fish eating is Iceland and they are giants with the most some really good health markers.

We have eaten seafood as long as we've been walking upright. It's silly to avoid all pufa. Avoid all refined oil. Ompletely, these are not foods. Avoid nuts and seeds because these are not meant to be a major part of our diet. Avoid avocado because its a majorly hybridized fruit. Avoid feed lot meats, especially pork and avoid large fatty fish. Apart from that, don't sweat it.

 

[burtlancast]

Fishing is as old as humanity itself. People who fishing at sea and eat fish everyday are unhealthy? They eat a lot of omega 3 from the fatty fish. I want to know some good arguments to this.. If nothing then high omega 3 content in the fatty fish can balance omega 3 to 6 ratio.

Here you are:

V. Stefannson, one of the early polar explorers, spent a winter living entirely on caribou meat, and felt that it had prevented the scurvy that had killed so many of the other explorers, who had counted on fruit and vegetables to prevent it. But he believed that meat was a metabolic stimulant that made people age prematurely, as Pearl's rate of living theory predicted. Stefannson said that Eskimo women were getting old in their twenties, and that at the age of 60 they looked as old as Europeans did at 80. He was a well informed anthropologist, and his observations were probably accurate. The Eskimos he observed ate large amounts of fish, and other unsaturated fats, and sometimes ate highly decayed fish. An accelerated rate of aging would be expected from such a diet, because of the toxic lipid peroxides.

 

[EnoreeG]

I've eaten a can of sardines a day the last month which isn't 10 grams.... there's no way I'd eat that much. I'm waking up early without an alarm and feel great. The itch is more or less gone. PUFA is essential (probably) and likely it does slow the metabolism..... because that is either how our bodies were designed to work or how we've evolved over thousands of years. Fish is a natural thing to eat; it makes no sense whatsoever to eliminate it.

I watched a bit of a Peat video last night. He doesn't look that healthy. His skin is reddened and dry looking. That's enough evidence for me.

I must agree with this. Fishing is as old as humanity itself. People who fishing at sea and eat fish everyday are unhealthy? They eat a lot of omega 3 from the fatty fish. I want to know some good arguments to this.. If nothing then high omega 3 content in the fatty fish can balance omega 3 to 6 ratio.

I don't disagree with gretchen. I really think the science has proven the essential nature of PUFA. I don't disagree with you, YuraCZ. Fishing is as old as humanity itself.

I'll add two things. If you visit a place where people live primatively, they either fish themselves, or go to a fish market and buy whole fish, fresh caught within the prior 2-5 hours. If they eat this that day, they probably get a healthy source of omega-3. Contrast this with fish caught 3 thousand miles away, frozen or (called "fresh fish") put on ice and delivered for you to pick up at the market, possibly 2 days later. Ever smelled a fish market in the USA? The smell is the rancidity of the omega-3? You'd be better off buying canned fish in some cases. The best fish I ever tasted was in a fish soup I ate in the Philippines. The fish was retrieved from the market and put in the slow boil within hours of being caught. There's a difference between fresh fish and "fresh" fish. Don't forbid yourself eating fish, but be careful.

The other thing: Regarding balancing omega-6 and omega-3. Fish-oil salesmen as pointed out by others here, made their trade based on "balancing your omega-3 with your omega-6". Very misleading in order to make sales of fish-oil go up. They are distorting, badly distorting. They get people to thinking they can pop a bunch of fish-oil pills to balance a huge overload of omega-6 obtained from manufactured and ruined omega-6 seed oils that are worthless to your body already. The honest thing to say is, "Rid your diet of all processed foods and this will clear up the imbalance all by itself." You don't need to push omega-3 up, you need to eliminate junk. The result will be balance. Period. But trying to get people to change diet doesn't sell product. So scare tactics are used with a lot of distortion. That's the best argument I can give you, in a short space regarding balancing. If you want some links to articles to demonstrate this, contact me directly.

 

[jyb]

I'll add two things. If you visit a place where people live primatively, they either fish themselves, or go to a fish market and buy whole fish, fresh caught within the prior 2-5 hours. If they eat this that day, they probably get a healthy source of omega-3. Contrast this with fish caught 3 thousand miles away, frozen or (called "fresh fish") put on ice and delivered for you to pick up at the market, possibly 2 days later. Ever smelled a fish market in the USA? The smell is the rancidity of the omega-3? You'd be better off buying canned fish in some cases. The best fish I ever tasted was in a fish soup I ate in the Philippines. The fish was retrieved from the market and put in the slow boil within hours of being caught. There's a difference between fresh fish and "fresh" fish. Don't forbid yourself eating fish, but be careful.

I don't think healthy cultures like the Masai had access to any fish? It was very heavy dairy and meat, a tiny bit of veges or fruit and zero fish. And still today many dairy tribes just don't seem to be eating any fish. Even if you believe pufa is essential, don't you think there is more than enough in fatty foods like milk and beef?

 

[johns74]

For almost 3 years I've ingested pretty much no major sources of PUFA. I have recently developed an itchiness on my lower left shin that I scratched to the point of bleeding. Just the other day it occurred to me that I might have an essential fatty acid deficiency. The idea horrifies me, and am aware of Peat's belief that it's due to needing more nutrients. I'm not sure how that can be possible considering how many nutritious foods I've added and supplements I've been taking.

If you don't have a period, consider that skin problems are often associated with excess iron. You might want to check your ferritin and transferrin saturation.