Affordable Source Of Pcpa (fenclonine)

[haidut]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

The study on DNA damage seems to be in a rodent model of Phenylketonuria (PKU), so the animals already had abnormally high levels of phenylalanine.
The insomnia effect of pCPA is well-documented, and I have not seen any warning about it. After all, if serotonin induces torpor and hibernation, then lowering its levels dramatically would be expected to probably have the opposite effect. The problem is that the "insomnia" effect was probably induced in an animal model (I have seen one about cats) and I am not sure what "insomnia" means in regards to cats. A human being can describe insomnia as a state of being tired but unable to fall asleep. For animals, you can only observe the reduced amount of sleep but you don't know if the animal was tired or maybe just had a huge influx of energy given that toxic serotonin was removed and the mitochondria were working like a brand new V8 in a car
Either way, caution is always advised but I have not heard or read about of any cases of pCPA toxicity in humans.

 

[Ben]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

Nice finds. Phenylalanine, not just pCPA, was claimed to cause DNA damage in the first study if there is too much. I think taking pCPA along with other amino acids/high protein meals would prevent the balance from becoming too offset. RP spoke of individual amino acids isolated of others having harmful effects, with the exception of some protective ones.

The second study would be a concern indeed. 5-HT has functions surrounding sleep regulation. Maybe pCPA increases the quality of sleep while reducing sleep time. If it does cause insomnia, it would be something to consider by cost-benefit ratio. In another post, I mentioned benadryl would be best for a low 5-HT, high histamine person because it also acts as a SSRI, and such a person's allergies would be the main problem, not 5-HT. Perhaps it would be effective to stack with pCPA to reduce 5-HT along with histamine to prevent the insomnia effect.

 

[superhuman]

really cool and interesting. Ofc they dont send to Norway so i want be able to try it

 

[jaguar43]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

The study on DNA damage seems to be in a rodent model of Phenylketonuria (PKU), so the animals already had abnormally high levels of phenylalanine.
The insomnia effect of pCPA is well-documented, and I have not seen any warning about it. After all, if serotonin induces torpor and hibernation, then lowering its levels dramatically would be expected to probably have the opposite effect. The problem is that the "insomnia" effect was probably induced in an animal model (I have seen one about cats) and I am not sure what "insomnia" means in regards to cats. A human being can describe insomnia as a state of being tired but unable to fall asleep. For animals, you can only observe the reduced amount of sleep but you don't know if the animal was tired or maybe just had a huge influx of energy given that toxic serotonin was removed and the mitochondria were working like a brand new V8 in a car
Either way, caution is always advised but I have not heard or read about of any cases of pCPA toxicity in humans.

I wonder what Dr. Peat thinks about supplementing with Fenclonine maybe he has information about human use that we don't.

Check out this study. It shows how Fenclonine interacts with cats brains.

http://ane.pl/pdf/4912.pdf

 

[Ben]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

The study on DNA damage seems to be in a rodent model of Phenylketonuria (PKU), so the animals already had abnormally high levels of phenylalanine.
The insomnia effect of pCPA is well-documented, and I have not seen any warning about it. After all, if serotonin induces torpor and hibernation, then lowering its levels dramatically would be expected to probably have the opposite effect. The problem is that the "insomnia" effect was probably induced in an animal model (I have seen one about cats) and I am not sure what "insomnia" means in regards to cats. A human being can describe insomnia as a state of being tired but unable to fall asleep. For animals, you can only observe the reduced amount of sleep but you don't know if the animal was tired or maybe just had a huge influx of energy given that toxic serotonin was removed and the mitochondria were working like a brand new V8 in a car
Either way, caution is always advised but I have not heard or read about of any cases of pCPA toxicity in humans.

I wonder what Dr. Peat thinks about supplementing with Fenclonine maybe he has information about human use that we don't.

Check out this study. It shows how Fenclonine interacts with cats brains.

http://ane.pl/pdf/4912.pdf

That's what I was thinking. RP may have tried it since he has so many years of experience, and he has definitely looked at more studies of it.

So any people with chemistry knowledge on here can say if it's possible to synthesize it from L- or D-phenylalanine? Phenylalanine is cheap, however, pCPA is pretty expensive even on the site the OP provided.

 

[Yves]

Wish I knew more about chemistry. PCPA looks like L-Phenylalanine with the addition of a chlorine atom. Anyone want to mix the amino acid with chlorine and see if it produces what we want? In all seriousness, finding a chemist who knows something might prove that it's not out of reach to synthesize this. Although if it were easy it doesn't explain why it's so expensive.

 

[Mittir]

Wish I knew more about chemistry. PCPA looks like L-Phenylalanine with the addition of a chlorine atom. Anyone want to mix the amino acid with chlorine and see if it produces what we want? In all seriousness, finding a chemist who knows something might prove that it's not out of reach to synthesize this. Although if it were easy it doesn't explain why it's so expensive.

That is kind of worrying. I have noticed Tianeptine also has chlorine attached to carbon.
RP has said following things about chlorine attached to carbon molecule.

Ray Peat wrote:
I avoid drugs that contain chlorine or fluorine, because of the risk to the liver.

When I asked him about Benadryl containing chloride, and even salt does, he clarified:

Ray Peat wrote:
Our enzymes aren't designed for the combination of chlorine with carbon molecules.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1035&start=50#p13904

 

[Ben]

Wish I knew more about chemistry. PCPA looks like L-Phenylalanine with the addition of a chlorine atom. Anyone want to mix the amino acid with chlorine and see if it produces what we want? In all seriousness, finding a chemist who knows something might prove that it's not out of reach to synthesize this. Although if it were easy it doesn't explain why it's so expensive.

That is kind of worrying. I have noticed Tianeptine also has chlorine attached to carbon.
RP has said following things about chlorine attached to carbon molecule.

Ray Peat wrote:
I avoid drugs that contain chlorine or fluorine, because of the risk to the liver.

When I asked him about Benadryl containing chloride, and even salt does, he clarified:

Ray Peat wrote:
Our enzymes aren't designed for the combination of chlorine with carbon molecules.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1035&start=50#p13904

What he said is kind of vague. So the unnatural combinations end up stimulating liver enzymes upon exposure and strain the liver with such a novel task?

I didn't find anything that indicated tianeptine causes liver damage. 1 in 1000 get hepatitis as an adverse effect, but I don't think that's significant for an average user. Of course fluorine is harmful, even as a salt. There isn't much information about pCPA and liver problems, it's kind of a research chemical at this stage, so indeed there's a reason to be cautious. Benadryl isn't very good to begin with since it also acts as an SSRI.

 

[jaguar43]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

The study on DNA damage seems to be in a rodent model of Phenylketonuria (PKU), so the animals already had abnormally high levels of phenylalanine.
The insomnia effect of pCPA is well-documented, and I have not seen any warning about it. After all, if serotonin induces torpor and hibernation, then lowering its levels dramatically would be expected to probably have the opposite effect. The problem is that the "insomnia" effect was probably induced in an animal model (I have seen one about cats) and I am not sure what "insomnia" means in regards to cats. A human being can describe insomnia as a state of being tired but unable to fall asleep. For animals, you can only observe the reduced amount of sleep but you don't know if the animal was tired or maybe just had a huge influx of energy given that toxic serotonin was removed and the mitochondria were working like a brand new V8 in a car
Either way, caution is always advised but I have not heard or read about of any cases of pCPA toxicity in humans.

I wonder what Dr. Peat thinks about supplementing with Fenclonine maybe he has information about human use that we don't.

Check out this study. It shows how Fenclonine interacts with cats brains.

http://ane.pl/pdf/4912.pdf

That's what I was thinking. RP may have tried it since he has so many years of experience, and he has definitely looked at more studies of it.

So any people with chemistry knowledge on here can say if it's possible to synthesize it from L- or D-phenylalanine? Phenylalanine is cheap, however, pCPA is pretty expensive even on the site the OP provided.

I think Dewitt is a biochemist.

What do you guys think of this

p-Chlorophenylalanine, or PCPA, has also been popular as a sexual stimulant based on evidence that inhibiting or reducing the production of serotonin, a powerful vasoconstrictor (i.e., it reduces blood flow), would increase sexualinterest. An amino acid, PCPA has been tested on laboratory rats, producing controversial reports that normally taciturn male rats responded to the drug by repeatedly mounting other male rats while ignoring available females.

Read more: http://www.faqs.org/health/topics/16/Se ... z2s0m1zVcF


Drug Warnings:
... When the 5-HT concentration in sexually deficient men is sufficiently decreased with parachlorophenylalanine (PCPA) treatment and testosterone levels increased following its administration, a vivid sexual stimulation appears in about half of the untractable cases. Similar results are observed by substituting testosterone with monoamine oxydase inhibitor (MAOI) in PCPA-treated volunteers. . ...
[Sicuteri F et al; Monogr Neural Sci 3: 94-101 (1976). Available from, as of July 28, 2009:] **PEER REVIEWED** PubMed Abstract

A case is reported of a patient with carcinoid syndrome who developed a exogenous psychosis while under treatment with the serotonin-inhibitor p-chlorophenylalanine (PCPA). Partial symptoms similar to delirium and schizophrenia were exhibited.
[Gruner W; Psychiatr Clin (Basel) 8 (5): 266-76 (1975). Available from, as of July 28, 2009:] **PEER REVIEWED** PubMed Abstract

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/s ... DOCNO+7747

 

[narouz]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

The study on DNA damage seems to be in a rodent model of Phenylketonuria (PKU), so the animals already had abnormally high levels of phenylalanine.
The insomnia effect of pCPA is well-documented, and I have not seen any warning about it. After all, if serotonin induces torpor and hibernation, then lowering its levels dramatically would be expected to probably have the opposite effect. The problem is that the "insomnia" effect was probably induced in an animal model (I have seen one about cats) and I am not sure what "insomnia" means in regards to cats. A human being can describe insomnia as a state of being tired but unable to fall asleep. For animals, you can only observe the reduced amount of sleep but you don't know if the animal was tired or maybe just had a huge influx of energy given that toxic serotonin was removed and the mitochondria were working like a brand new V8 in a car
Either way, caution is always advised but I have not heard or read about of any cases of pCPA toxicity in humans.

I wonder what Dr. Peat thinks about supplementing with Fenclonine maybe he has information about human use that we don't.

Check out this study. It shows how Fenclonine interacts with cats brains.

http://ane.pl/pdf/4912.pdf

Yes, because of my ignorance about chemistry/physiology (and many other fields : >)
it would be nice to hear how Peat feels about it--for human use.
While it may indeed be a "unicorn" of drugs mentioned by Peat
and noted in rat (and some human?) experiments as having very appealing effects
(heightened libido, euphoria, serotonin diminishment, etc),
it is not, as far as I know,
one of the drugs Peat has recommended for human use.
Maybe he has...I just haven't heard/read it.
That seems possibly significant to me.

Seems like there must be some problem/side-effects,
because why wouldn't it have been used more widely?
We see how much money is being made on Viagra, etc--
drugs which advertise sexual pleasure/ability.
Why wasn't this the case with pCPA?
(maybe not patentable?)

So...I will probably wait to see if the pCPA
"induces mounting behaviour" in haidut : >)

Also: found a big trove of pCPA stuff a Functionalps:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/07/17/anti-serotonin-pro-sex-drive/

 

[haidut]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

The study on DNA damage seems to be in a rodent model of Phenylketonuria (PKU), so the animals already had abnormally high levels of phenylalanine.
The insomnia effect of pCPA is well-documented, and I have not seen any warning about it. After all, if serotonin induces torpor and hibernation, then lowering its levels dramatically would be expected to probably have the opposite effect. The problem is that the "insomnia" effect was probably induced in an animal model (I have seen one about cats) and I am not sure what "insomnia" means in regards to cats. A human being can describe insomnia as a state of being tired but unable to fall asleep. For animals, you can only observe the reduced amount of sleep but you don't know if the animal was tired or maybe just had a huge influx of energy given that toxic serotonin was removed and the mitochondria were working like a brand new V8 in a car
Either way, caution is always advised but I have not heard or read about of any cases of pCPA toxicity in humans.

I wonder what Dr. Peat thinks about supplementing with Fenclonine maybe he has information about human use that we don't.

Check out this study. It shows how Fenclonine interacts with cats brains.

http://ane.pl/pdf/4912.pdf

Yes, because of my ignorance about chemistry/physiology (and many other fields : >)
it would be nice to hear how Peat feels about it--for human use.
While it may indeed be a "unicorn" of drugs mentioned by Peat
and noted in rat (and some human?) experiments as having very appealing effects
(heightened libido, euphoria, serotonin diminishment, etc),
it is not, as far as I know,
one of the drugs Peat has recommended for human use.
Maybe he has...I just haven't heard/read it.
That seems possibly significant to me.

Seems like there must be some problem/side-effects,
because why wouldn't it have been used more widely?
We see how much money is being made on Viagra, etc--
drugs which advertise sexual pleasure/ability.
Why wasn't this the case with pCPA?
(maybe not patentable?)

So...I will probably wait to see if the pCPA
"induces mounting behaviour" in haidut : >)

Also: found a big trove of pCPA stuff a Functionalps:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/07/17/anti-serotonin-pro-sex-drive/

pCPA was used extensively in the 60s and 70s especially by US military scientist for some unique and I'd say bizarre experiments. It was used as a drug to induce "gay" behavior in humans, but they found out that it simply increased libido dramatically, where in the rats it made them lose preference for sexual partners and made them mount even...cats! So, it's not like the rats became gay, they just lost all fear and dedicated themselves to sexual "exploration" (even with cats), which, as you know from reading Peat, is a hallmark of health.
The reason it is not widely used is probably similar to the reasons LSD is not widely used - the paradigm or drugs acting against serotonin is that they are all evil and make people crazy. On top of that, since it is a simple amino acid and can be synthesized very cheaply, it's probably hard to make it illegal or patent it.
In Europe, pCPA is used off-label to quickly reverse sexual dysfunction in people with heavy SSRI use, alcoholics, PSTD sufferrers, steroid-damaged bodybuilders, etc.
I'd be interested as well in hearing Peat's opinion but so far I have not seen a single study or anecdotal report of it coming even close in terms of harmfullness compared to things like SSRI, or even some of the prolactin inhibitors like cabergoline.

 

[4peatssake]

So...I will probably wait to see if the pCPA
"induces mounting behaviour" in haidut : >)

 

[4peatssake]

In Europe, pCPA is used off-label to quickly reverse sexual dysfunction in people with heavy SSRI use, alcoholics, PSTD sufferrers, steroid-damaged bodybuilders, etc.

Wow

 

[Yves]

I found this which is interesting.

Mixing chlorine and phenylalanine should produce N-chlorophenylalanine which is very similar to p-chlorophenylalanine

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary ... 0#itabs-2d
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary ... cid=184773

Since all tap water in the U.S. has some chlorine (or buying chlorine, should be easy to find), one could drink phenalyanine with tap water to see if it has an effect. This study suggests it might -
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... lorination

Exciting stuff! Does anyone want to guinea pig themselves? I'm tempted to go out and buy some phenylalanine

 

[Ben]

L-phenylalanine

p-chlorophenylalanine (pCPA)

N-chlorophenylalanine (NCPA)

I would think that adding a chlorine to L-phenylalanine produces pCPA since adding it to NCPA would require replacing the hydrogen. Is there any particular reason why you think adding chlorine to phenylalanine produces NCPA, Yves?

 

[Yves]

I am no chemist so you may be right. Maybe it also matters what form of chlorine it is. I got the idea of N-chlorophenylalanine from this study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15352452

That study mentions the proper ratios for forming this compound. At higher ratios it formed different compounds.

I've only found one article[1] that implies N-chlorophenylalanine has the same effect as P-chlorophenylalanine. I think between this and the article in my previous post identifying 2,4-diphenylcrotonaldehyde as the antiserotonin byproduct of chlorinated phenylalanine, it seems very reasonable that mixing chlorine and phenylalanine will produce desirable results. I'm going to do some more reading, but I plan to experiment on myself. If it works it means a much cheaper compound than buying from a supplier. Granted DIY will likely mean less purity and potency, but at a fraction of the cost (phenylalanine in bulk is 5 cents a gram and chlorine is cheap).

edit: it looks like these compounds may also be anti-estrogenic[2]. win!

[1] http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... at_Embryos
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19673289

 

[jaguar43]

Does this concern anyone?

DNA damage from the substance, I don't know enough to read into it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24032682

Insomnia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10432485

The study on DNA damage seems to be in a rodent model of Phenylketonuria (PKU), so the animals already had abnormally high levels of phenylalanine.
The insomnia effect of pCPA is well-documented, and I have not seen any warning about it. After all, if serotonin induces torpor and hibernation, then lowering its levels dramatically would be expected to probably have the opposite effect. The problem is that the "insomnia" effect was probably induced in an animal model (I have seen one about cats) and I am not sure what "insomnia" means in regards to cats. A human being can describe insomnia as a state of being tired but unable to fall asleep. For animals, you can only observe the reduced amount of sleep but you don't know if the animal was tired or maybe just had a huge influx of energy given that toxic serotonin was removed and the mitochondria were working like a brand new V8 in a car
Either way, caution is always advised but I have not heard or read about of any cases of pCPA toxicity in humans.

I wonder what Dr. Peat thinks about supplementing with Fenclonine maybe he has information about human use that we don't.

Check out this study. It shows how Fenclonine interacts with cats brains.

http://ane.pl/pdf/4912.pdf

Yes, because of my ignorance about chemistry/physiology (and many other fields : >)
it would be nice to hear how Peat feels about it--for human use.
While it may indeed be a "unicorn" of drugs mentioned by Peat
and noted in rat (and some human?) experiments as having very appealing effects
(heightened libido, euphoria, serotonin diminishment, etc),
it is not, as far as I know,
one of the drugs Peat has recommended for human use.
Maybe he has...I just haven't heard/read it.
That seems possibly significant to me.

Seems like there must be some problem/side-effects,
because why wouldn't it have been used more widely?
We see how much money is being made on Viagra, etc--
drugs which advertise sexual pleasure/ability.
Why wasn't this the case with pCPA?
(maybe not patentable?)

So...I will probably wait to see if the pCPA
"induces mounting behaviour" in haidut : >)

Also: found a big trove of pCPA stuff a Functionalps:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/07/17/anti-serotonin-pro-sex-drive/

pCPA was used extensively in the 60s and 70s especially by US military scientist for some unique and I'd say bizarre experiments. It was used as a drug to induce "gay" behavior in humans, but they found out that it simply increased libido dramatically, where in the rats it made them lose preference for sexual partners and made them mount even...cats! So, it's not like the rats became gay, they just lost all fear and dedicated themselves to sexual "exploration" (even with cats), which, as you know from reading Peat, is a hallmark of health.
The reason it is not widely used is probably similar to the reasons LSD is not widely used - the paradigm or drugs acting against serotonin is that they are all evil and make people crazy. On top of that, since it is a simple amino acid and can be synthesized very cheaply, it's probably hard to make it illegal or patent it.
In Europe, pCPA is used off-label to quickly reverse sexual dysfunction in people with heavy SSRI use, alcoholics, PSTD sufferrers, steroid-damaged bodybuilders, etc.
I'd be interested as well in hearing Peat's opinion but so far I have not seen a single study or anecdotal report of it coming even close in terms of harmfullness compared to things like SSRI, or even some of the prolactin inhibitors like cabergoline.

Thats true, I once had a puppy that humped everything from my sofa to my sisters leg Lol.

 

[Ben]

You can add enough chlorine to definitely convert all of the L-phenylalanine, and then add some amount of baking soda to turn the rest into table salt. I'm not sure if the sodium would react with the chloride in the pCPA or NCPA. I guess we will know the difference between taking L-phenylalanine and pCPA or NCPA.

It could also be worth experimenting with D-phenylalanine, or DL-phenylalanine if both pCPA and NCPA have an effect RP recommends (anti-serotonergic/anti-estrogen). Good luck with the experiment, make sure to take temperature, pulse rate, blood pressure, breathing, and other parameters in addition to looking out for behavioral changes. Serotonin is involved in each of these measures.

 

[jaguar43]

This is what Dr. Peat said about Fenclonine usage when I ask him.

Jag2594:Is p-chlorophenylalanine ( Fenclonine ) safe for human consumption? Are there any side effects that are known ? I have been researching for a few weeks and I can not find anything side effects in human use.

Ray Peat: I don't know of any side effects, or people who have used it.

 

[Blossom]

The company is unable to sell to me per the email I received today. Oh well.