Alpha Tocopherol (Vit E) Increases Estrogen?

[milk_lover]

I am now in Korea. They only have alpha tocopherol vitamin E supplements (400 & 1000 IU) all of which are soy derived (Koreans are obsessed with soy :? ). I heard that Peat recommends the mixed vit. E supplements. Should I continue this experiment? I don't feel very different when I take those korean supplements, maybe little water retention? Not sure really if they are the cause of that though. I've benefitted a lot from the Aspirin experiment and I want to expand my Peat tools

 

[Mittir]

High dose vitamin E depletes vitamin K. If you are planning to take large dose vitamin E
you will need to take vitamin K. I remember reading a study that found 800 IU
vitamin E depletes vitamin K in a short period of time.

I used to take soy derived vitamin E with moderate improvements and now i use
mixed tocopherols and it is much better . I usually take 1000 IU once or twice a week.

 

[milk_lover]

post 105826 High dose vitamin E depletes vitamin K. If you are planning to take large dose vitamin E
you will need to take vitamin K. I remember reading a study that found 800 IU
vitamin E depletes vitamin K in a short period of time.

I used to take soy derived vitamin E with moderate improvements and now i use
mixed tocopherols and it is much better . I usually take 1000 IU once or twice a week.

hmm interesting Mittir. So if you have no access for vit K at this current time, is it better to avoid vitamin E? Last weekend when I had some lamb liver, I felt much better after a week of vitamin E experiment. My guess lamb liver has some vitamin K.

What would be a safe dose per week of vitamin E if you have no intention to supplement vitamin K (instead relying on food) or have no access to a good vitamin K2 supplement?

 

[milk_lover]

post 105826 and now i use
mixed tocopherols and it is much better

May I know what brand you're using?

 

[charlie]

post 106101 hmm interesting Mittir. So if you have no access for vit K at this current time, is it better to avoid vitamin E? Last weekend when I had some lamb liver, I felt much better after a week of vitamin E experiment. My guess lamb liver has some vitamin K.

Can you make broths from Collard Greens?

 

[Mittir]

post 105826 and now i use
mixed tocopherols and it is much better

May I know what brand you're using?

I use 1000 IU GNC mixed tocopherol from soy. Someone here used mixed tocopherols
from sunflower oil with good result. I do not take any vitamin K supplements,
I eat 6-8 oz of beef liver weekly and i think that is enough K for me.
Grassfed milk should have good amount of vitamin K .
RP usually recommends 200 IU vitamin E. I have used 400 IU for several years.
I do not think you will need extra vitamin K for 200 IU.

 

[milk_lover]

post 106103

post 106101 hmm interesting Mittir. So if you have no access for vit K at this current time, is it better to avoid vitamin E? Last weekend when I had some lamb liver, I felt much better after a week of vitamin E experiment. My guess lamb liver has some vitamin K.

Can you make broths from Collard Greens?

I think I can. Here in Korea I can find good quality collard greens in supermarkets Do you think their broths will provide enough vitamin K (K1) to counterbalance vitamin K depletion from a vitamin E supplement? Do you have a good recipe to cook collard greens broths? I often see the forum member tara recommend green broths and now Charlie you recommend it, so it must be a good addition to the diet

 

[charlie]

I am just getting back into broths. Check out the information that Nicholas was sharing in the chat room last night.

 

[milk_lover]

post 106106

post 105826 and now i use
mixed tocopherols and it is much better

May I know what brand you're using?

I use 1000 IU GNC mixed tocopherol from soy. Someone here used mixed tocopherols
from sunflower oil with good result. I do not take any vitamin K supplements,
I eat 6-8 oz of beef liver weekly and i think that is enough K for me.
Grassfed milk should have good amount of vitamin K .
RP usually recommends 200 IU vitamin E. I have used 400 IU for several years.
I do not think you will need extra vitamin K for 200 IU.

Thanks Mittir. You mentioned beef liver as a source of vitamin K. Can the same thing apply to lamb liver? RP recommends 200 IU vitamin E daily? But Mittir, maybe if you have no access to a mixed tocopherol supplement (only alpha tocopherol like my case), caution or care should be taken, shouldn't be?

 

[milk_lover]

post 106110 I am just getting back into broths. Check out the information that Nicholas was sharing in the chat room last night.

This is good information to write in this post.

collard green broths (w/well-cooked collards) are my new discovery. I always thought i got enough Vit. K from grouda, yogurt, liver.....but since incorporating this into my diet a few weeks ago i've noticed improvements in skin, teeth, and even today i had a deep gash in my arm and the blood clotted almost instantly. for what it's worth - if someone doesn't want to buy the Thorne's stuff......... i think it's been the missing vitamin that i never really focused on too much for some reason....i just kept thinking - there has to be a use for vegetables in my diet. it also helps me feel a bit more like a normal eater now, too. and collards are traditionally stewed anyway, so..... i do the oxtail and collards.....i chose the collards because of them being highest in Vit. K and also lowest in oxalic acid. i've always done the broth [oxtail broth w/o collards I think], so i know it's not just that.

 

[Mittir]

Thanks Mittir. You mentioned beef liver as a source of vitamin K. Can the same thing apply to lamb liver? RP recommends 200 IU vitamin E daily? But Mittir, maybe if you have no access to a mixed tocopherol supplement (only alpha tocopherol like my case), caution or care should be taken, shouldn't be?

Vitamin K depleting Studies are done using alpha tocopherol.
You will mostly get antioxidant effect of vitamin E using only alpha tocopherol
and this is beneficial. RP thinks that for total effect,
especially for anti-estrogen effect , we need mixed tocopherol.
I used natural alpha tocopherol for years and it was helpful.
I got very little effect from Synthetic vitamin E .

Lamb liver should have good amount of vitamin K.
I chose beef liver,because RP himself measured vitamin K content of beef liver.

 

[milk_lover]

post 106121

Thanks Mittir. You mentioned beef liver as a source of vitamin K. Can the same thing apply to lamb liver? RP recommends 200 IU vitamin E daily? But Mittir, maybe if you have no access to a mixed tocopherol supplement (only alpha tocopherol like my case), caution or care should be taken, shouldn't be?

Vitamin K depleting Studies are done using alpha tocopherol.
You will mostly get antioxidant effect of vitamin E using only alpha tocopherol
and this is beneficial. RP thinks that for total effect,
especially for anti-estrogen effect , we need mixed tocopherol.
I used natural alpha tocopherol for years and it was helpful.
I got very little effect from Synthetic vitamin E .

Lamb liver should have good amount of vitamin K.
I chose beef liver,because RP himself measured vitamin K content of beef liver.

Thanks so much Mittir for the great info you've provided :)

 

[Amazoniac]

Dear @microtubuled, the whole review might interest you:

Studies in Vitamin E: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology of Tocopherol Quinones - ScienceDirect

"Refined diets deficient in "vitamin E," as measured by a rat fertility test assay, were used initially in studies on biological effects and these studies naturally focused on sterility. ‘‘Vitamin E’’ is widely distributed in nutrients and deficient diets were difficult to prepare. The problem was apparently solved by a procedure in which "vitamin E" in natural foods was destroyed by oxidation when foods were treated with ferric chloride in ether (Waddell and Steenbock, 1928). This "vitamin E‐deficient" diet had biological effects that were, unexpectedly, very different from highly refined deficient diets. The ferric chloride‐treated diet was associated with high toxicity in rats (Taylor and Nelson, 1930), lymphoblastoma in chicks (Adamstone, 1936), and "nutritional muscular dystrophy" in guinea pigs and rabbits (Goettsch and Pappenheimer, 1931). Most importantly, these effects depended on the composition of the diet. For example, a dramatic toxic effect was observed when the diet was based on oxidized wheat germ oil, while a lesser effect was observed when the diet was based on oxidized cod liver oil. This observation suggested to the original investigators (Taylor and Nelson, 1930) that different biological effects of the "vitamin E deficiency" diets could not be related solely to the absence of "vitamin E," and ferric chloride caused oxidation might convert "vitamin E" or some as yet unknown agent in the diet to a cytotoxic derivative. Shortly after the effects of a "vitamin E" deficiency through oxidative degradation were first reported, other investigators found that "vitamin E," extracted from wheat germ with ether and then concentrated by evaporation, produced transplantable sarcomas in several rat strains but not in mice or guinea pigs (Rowntree et al., 1937). [*]Oxidation induced by wet ether extraction was implied in this work since neither cold‐pressed nor hydrocarbon-extracted wheat germ oil produced sarcomas. The study was immediately repeated by several well‐known nutritionists who could not reproduce the observation in experiments that did not replicate exactly the original procedure (Carruthers, 1938; Day et al., 1938; Evans and Emerson, 1939). The question of "vitamin E" oxidation to a carcinogenic derivative was not pursued in part because the chemical structure and properties of "vitamin E" had not been established at this time."

"We hypothesized that, as an early study had suggested (Taylor and Nelson, 1930), the cytotoxicity of oxidized oils was due not merely to the destruction of "vitamin E" but to the synthesis of cytotoxic oxidation products. Cod liver oil contains only Travis‐T and will yield only Mittir‐tocopherol quinone (Waynish‐TQ) when it is treated with the oxidizing agent ferric chloride. In contrast, wheat germ oil contains Diokine‐, b‐, g‐, and d‐T (Sheppard et al., 1993) and will yield Such‐, b‐, g‐, and d‐TQ, when it is oxidized. Therefore, the differences between refined diets where "vitamin E" is eliminated and oxidized diets where "vitamin E" is destroyed might be explained by the oxidation of tocopherols to their quinone electrophiles. Furthermore, the differences between cod liver and wheat germ oil diets might be explained by the formation of tocopherol quinone electrophiles with very different biological properties."

*@Zeus​

 

[Koveras]

Dear @microtubuled, the whole review might interest you:

Studies in Vitamin E: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology of Tocopherol Quinones - ScienceDirect

"Refined diets deficient in "vitamin E," as measured by a rat fertility test assay, were used initially in studies on biological effects and these studies naturally focused on sterility. ‘‘Vitamin E’’ is widely distributed in nutrients and deficient diets were difficult to prepare. The problem was apparently solved by a procedure in which "vitamin E" in natural foods was destroyed by oxidation when foods were treated with ferric chloride in ether (Waddell and Steenbock, 1928). This "vitamin E‐deficient" diet had biological effects that were, unexpectedly, very different from highly refined deficient diets. The ferric chloride‐treated diet was associated with high toxicity in rats (Taylor and Nelson, 1930), lymphoblastoma in chicks (Adamstone, 1936), and "nutritional muscular dystrophy" in guinea pigs and rabbits (Goettsch and Pappenheimer, 1931). Most importantly, these effects depended on the composition of the diet. For example, a dramatic toxic effect was observed when the diet was based on oxidized wheat germ oil, while a lesser effect was observed when the diet was based on oxidized cod liver oil. This observation suggested to the original investigators (Taylor and Nelson, 1930) that different biological effects of the "vitamin E deficiency" diets could not be related solely to the absence of "vitamin E," and ferric chloride caused oxidation might convert "vitamin E" or some as yet unknown agent in the diet to a cytotoxic derivative. Shortly after the effects of a "vitamin E" deficiency through oxidative degradation were first reported, other investigators found that "vitamin E," extracted from wheat germ with ether and then concentrated by evaporation, produced transplantable sarcomas in several rat strains but not in mice or guinea pigs (Rowntree et al., 1937). [*]Oxidation induced by wet ether extraction was implied in this work since neither cold‐pressed nor hydrocarbon-extracted wheat germ oil produced sarcomas. The study was immediately repeated by several well‐known nutritionists who could not reproduce the observation in experiments that did not replicate exactly the original procedure (Carruthers, 1938; Day et al., 1938; Evans and Emerson, 1939). The question of "vitamin E" oxidation to a carcinogenic derivative was not pursued in part because the chemical structure and properties of "vitamin E" had not been established at this time."

"We hypothesized that, as an early study had suggested (Taylor and Nelson, 1930), the cytotoxicity of oxidized oils was due not merely to the destruction of "vitamin E" but to the synthesis of cytotoxic oxidation products. Cod liver oil contains only Travis‐T and will yield only Mittir‐tocopherol quinone (Waynish‐TQ) when it is treated with the oxidizing agent ferric chloride. In contrast, wheat germ oil contains Diokine‐, b‐, g‐, and d‐T (Sheppard et al., 1993) and will yield Such‐, b‐, g‐, and d‐TQ, when it is oxidized. Therefore, the differences between refined diets where "vitamin E" is eliminated and oxidized diets where "vitamin E" is destroyed might be explained by the oxidation of tocopherols to their quinone electrophiles. Furthermore, the differences between cod liver and wheat germ oil diets might be explained by the formation of tocopherol quinone electrophiles with very different biological properties."

*@Zeus​

Not much else it can be dissolved into. Pure ethanol is not an option due to postal regulations, and I cannot use tocopherols as they interact with quinones. Pure oil may be an option, but solubility of quinones in pure oil is also low. Have you tried the new formulation with less DMSO?

The both share the same transport protein, so taking high doses of both at the same time may inhibit absorption of the other. Similar to taurine and beta alanine. But I think he meant also that since vitamin K is a quinone and tocopherol is an alcohol, the quinone can potentially oxidize the alcohol and turn the tocopherol into in a hydroquinone or some other reactive molecule. Just speculation as he did not provide specifics but I have seen studies talk about oxidation of vitamin E in to quinones and other reactive molecules.

 

[Amazoniac]

Good to know that you're around. Did you search or was your mad memory in action?
I don't think it's something to worry about, vitamins A and K are oxidants, and they are vulnerable to damage. The problem appears when the vit E and A or K are humiliated, potentiating the damaging effect of each on top of no longer being protected (the review ends with a discussion on deep-frying in polyunsaturated oils). But under normal conditions, when they're balanced and not in excess, they should have good synergistic effects. I don't know if this is a microscope image, but you can note the characteristic conformation when A-E-K are together.

 

[Koveras]

Good to know that you're around. Did you search or was your mad memory in action?
I don't think it's something to worry about, vitamins A and K are oxidants, and they are vulnerable to damage. The problem appears when the vit E and A or K are humiliated, potentiating the damaging effect of each on top of no longer being protected (the review ends with a discussion on deep-frying in polyunsaturated oils). But under normal conditions, when they're balanced and not in excess, they should have good synergistic effects. I don't know if this is a microscope image, but you can note the characteristic conformation when A-E-K are together.

My memory is sort of akin to a dinner bell that queues me to check evernote.

Still lurking.

What if we add thymoquinone to the party?

 

[Amazoniac]

What if we add thymoquinone to the party?

I don't know what it is..

 

[Koveras]

I don't know what it is..

asked him about Nigella sativa(black cumin seed): "The quinones in the oil are very interesting, but I haven’t had any experience with them. They could have great biological value, but other things in the seeds might be allergenic."

Caller: Yeah, the other part of my questions was “Is there a plant or a herb that actually produces or mimics methylene blue that you can ingest instead of?

RP: Oh, I've been looking around at various molecules and it was a precursor for many of the drugs, the tricyclic anti-depressants and tricyclic anti-histamines and anti-inflammatories, I think all grew out of the dye industry that methylene blue was one of the very first examples of, but it's a three ring molecule and that seems, probably because it's structurally roughly the same size and shape as the steroid hormones, it probably can get into the many different places that natural steroids act. And so I've looked around at plants that make analogous things, the tetracyclines have many the same anti-inflammatory effects, I suspect they're also working against nitric oxide. They just have one extra ring but in a very similar arrangement and Vitamin K and Vitamin E are even analogous in some ways. Lapacho, a chemical from a South American tree, it's a dye that has many of the anti- inflammatory, anti-cancer properties of methylene blue.

Caller: Can you spell that?

HD: Lapacho, Tabebuia impetigenosa, it's a South American tall hardwood, used extensively for cancer, as Dr Peat mentioned they call it Pau D'Arco.

HD: Recently people are talking about an Asian herb, I think one of the names is Black cumin, but it contains thymoquinone. And the quinones are, I think, the essential; model of the protective pro-oxidant stabilising chemical, and thymol quinone is considered to be a very powerful anti-inflammatory. And I suspect that it will turn out to be acting against excess nitric oxide.

HD: It's a free radical quencher again isn't it, the quinones?

RP: Yeah, that's just one of their many...they seem to activate the right kind of oxidation whilst quenching the bad kind.

HD: OK, very good.

Nigella sativa - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects

It's interesting

 

[Amazoniac]

Nigella sativa - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects

It's interesting

Thanks. Now could you please put a rake on the floor and cover with leaves, narrow the path so that you direct me to it, and then call me to show me something? When I step on it, my forehead is knocked and a note is attached to it saying that our friendship is owa and that I can't trust you anymore. Then I start crying and go show my mom what happened but on my way I realize that I'm a grown up and it would be something silly. However it occurs to me that the best revenge will be the silence punishment and prooving to you that I'm independent. Later I'll thank you one more time for giving me the drive to not ask you further questions on this quinone and instead read about it on my own.

 

[Koveras]

Thanks. Now could you please put a rake on the floor and cover with leaves, narrow the path so that you direct me to it, and then call me to show me something? When I step on it, my forehead is knocked and a note is attached to it saying that our friendship is owa and that I can't trust you anymore. Then I start crying and go show my mom what happened but on my way I realize that I'm a grown up and it would be something silly. However it occurs to me that the best revenge will be the silence punishment and prooving to you that I'm independent. Later I'll thank you one more time for giving me the drive to not ask you further questions on this quinone and instead read about it on my own.

When I become excessively busy and successful I will start telling people "this has been discussed many times already" "please use the search feature"