Anxiety With Methylene Blue, Cabergoline, Deprenyl, Or Even Tyrosine! Why?

[Bulletproof?]

Does anyone know of a good source for cyproheptadine or bromocriptine?

 

[whit]

Yea, charcoal can have a constipative effect. Usually only in higher doses though.
Unless one already tends towards constipation.

Coffee is a decent source of magnesium and niacin.
Speaking of coffee. Is the bulletproof coffee bean as good as Dave Asprey claims?
I've tried the coconut and butter coffee before but not with his beans. Tasty!

 

[Bulletproof?]

Yea, charcoal can have a constipative effect. Usually only in higher doses though.
Unless one already tends towards constipation.

Coffee is a decent source of magnesium and niacin.
Speaking of coffee. Is the bulletproof coffee bean as good as Dave Asprey claims?
I've tried the coconut and butter coffee before but not with his beans. Tasty!

The coffee is pretty good, but not worth the price. I was buying his super expensive brain octane and coffee, but I did not find any difference. I buy organic coffee at Costco at about $5 per lb, and am perfectly happy with that. :)

 

[whit]

The coffee is pretty good, but not worth the price. I was buying his super expensive brain octane and coffee, but I did not find any difference. I buy organic coffee at Costco at about $5 per lb, and am perfectly happy with that. :)

Wow, thats a huge price difference on coffee and mct.
I still enjoy a cup quite often.
When coffee is online without sugar somewhere in the equation it's trouble for me.
Funny I can't stand the taste of sugar in coffee though.

 

[Bulletproof?]

Wow, thats a huge price difference on coffee and mct.
I still enjoy a cup quite often.
When coffee is online without sugar somewhere in the equation it's trouble for me.
Funny I can't stand the taste of sugar in coffee though.

I know! Sugar in coffee tastes terrible to me as well. I add some organic stevia to try and mellow out that bitterness I get from that organic raw cane sugar. @haidut @tara @docall18 I have been feeling this uncomfortable feeling of anxiety. I couldn't take deep breaths or relax or even sleep well for some time, but last night I took some benadryl and slept ok, but woke up without that anxious feeling that I have had for several days now. Could all of that anxiety and restlessness be caused from just histamines? I mean, I have taken charcoal, Taurine, Pregnenolone, DHEA, Tyrosine Lysine, niacinimide, and aspirin, but that feeling persisted until I took Benadryl.

 

[allblues]

Wow, this is very interesting, and may help explain some similar symptoms I have experienced. Thanks for sharing. I also read the second link you posted below on a theory on panic attacks, and it seems pretty reasonable.

Edit: Just wanted to add some other thoughts from my personal observations, now that I've thought about this a bit more. Pretty much all the peaty supps that are supposed to rev up metabolism (caffeine, MB, niacinamide, etc.) generally cause me to feel quite anxious, like I just need to run away from everything or something. Just an uncomfortable feeling that I cannot shake.

Of course, I follow the recommendations to get plenty of fuel with these, but it seems that no amount of calories is enough, which just never made much sense to me. I've checked my blood sugar in these states, and it's been normal, so it seems hypoglycemia is not to blame. Also, once in a state like this, stuffing my face with calories will not correct it, it seems that only time brings things back to balance.

I'm wondering if I have chronically low DHEA, and it doesn't take much to shift the DHEA/cortisol ratio into the zone that tells my body to run away from imminent danger, even if my body is adequately fueled. I have quite high prolactin, so that fits into the puzzle too as a potential fall back my body is using to boost low DHEA. Could the DHEA/cortisol ratio be what determines in stress if you feel strong and confident like holding your ground and fighting, or if your body realizes it's going to loose the fight and creates a feeling that makes you want to run?

Very interesting, i'm in a similar spot. Same uneasy reaction to anything stimulating.

Have you tried supplementing DHEA/pregnenolone? Any difference?
I've been taking just 2-3 drops of Pansterone, gonna try upping it to at least 8 drops a day and see if i get any effects.

Also - i've been taking 0.5 mg/week cabergoline for almost 2 weeks now, but lowering prolactin in this situation, which then could lower DHEA
if the body is using prolactin to squeeze some DHEA out, might then exacerbate cortisol dominance? Yikes!

 

[Strongbad]

my guess is that you're low in serotonin. Serotonin prevents the conversion of tyrosine to adrenaline.

 

[barefooter]

Very interesting, i'm in a similar spot. Same uneasy reaction to anything stimulating.

Have you tried supplementing DHEA/pregnenolone? Any difference?
I've been taking just 2-3 drops of Pansterone, gonna try upping it to at least 8 drops a day and see if i get any effects.

Also - i've been taking 0.5 mg/week cabergoline for almost 2 weeks now, but lowering prolactin in this situation, which then could lower DHEA
if the body is using prolactin to squeeze some DHEA out, might then exacerbate cortisol dominance? Yikes!

I've been taking pansterone for the last week and having pretty amazing results. I posted this in the pansterone thread:

"30 year old male here, just wanted to post my results with pansterone. I've been using 8 drops 3x/day for a week now, and it is having some pretty dramatic effects. Overall I just feel a lot better, more energy, higher libido, more social, better in the gym, and I just feel more confident and alpha. It also seems to be bringing my body temp up a bit, and I'm now much more likely to be in the low 98s in the afternoon, whereas before I was always around 97.8. But the thing that is most pleasing to me, is that it seems to be pretty quickly reversing a kind of mild persistent paranoid state I'd been in for the past year or so. A year ago I had some bad drug trips, and a few months ago I had some of my first panic attacks. The panic attacks went away with eating more, but I was left with a lingering feeling of just not being the same since all the bad experiences over the last year, sorta like a persistent fear about the nature of reality and being alive."

I haven't been drinking any coffee or anything stimulating yet, so I can't say if it's helping in that regard. I'm planning to get my DHEA and prolactin tested again in a month or two to see if DHEA is up and prolactin is down, which would make this whole theory fit together very nicely. I'll also try drinking some coffee in a few days and see if I react any differently now that I'm taking DHEA/preg.

 

[Bulletproof?]

I've been taking pansterone for the last week and having pretty amazing results. I posted this in the pansterone thread:

"30 year old male here, just wanted to post my results with pansterone. I've been using 8 drops 3x/day for a week now, and it is having some pretty dramatic effects. Overall I just feel a lot better, more energy, higher libido, more social, better in the gym, and I just feel more confident and alpha. It also seems to be bringing my body temp up a bit, and I'm now much more likely to be in the low 98s in the afternoon, whereas before I was always around 97.8. But the thing that is most pleasing to me, is that it seems to be pretty quickly reversing a kind of mild persistent paranoid state I'd been in for the past year or so. A year ago I had some bad drug trips, and a few months ago I had some of my first panic attacks. The panic attacks went away with eating more, but I was left with a lingering feeling of just not being the same since all the bad experiences over the last year, sorta like a persistent fear about the nature of reality and being alive."

I haven't been drinking any coffee or anything stimulating yet, so I can't say if it's helping in that regard. I'm planning to get my DHEA and prolactin tested again in a month or two to see if DHEA is up and prolactin is down, which would make this whole theory fit together very nicely. I'll also try drinking some coffee in a few days and see if I react any differently now that I'm taking DHEA/preg.

I have Pansterone, but @haidut said that 8drops 3x per day may be too much, so I have been doing just 2 drops 3x per day. I will up my dose and see what happens. @allblues Yeah, I take DHEA and Preg through Pansterone, but before the Pan I was using 150mg per day of Preg and about 10-15mg of DHEA. They didn't seem to help very much, at least not as much as Benadryl has helped. The anxiety feeling hasn't come back at all today and it is something that has been with me every single minute of everyday for several days now, and the only difference has been the Bendryl. @Strongbad isn't the point to lower serotonin? RP and Haidut mention often that the goal is to lower serotonin. Am I missing something?

 

[Strongbad]

@Strongbad isn't the point to lower serotonin? RP and Haidut mention often that the goal is to lower serotonin. Am I missing something?

If the point is to lower serotonin, why consume so much sugar? Sugar raises serotonin. A simple googling "sugar serotonin" will explain this.

This is why when you eat sugar or chocolate you feel really good. Both of them raises serotonin which prevents the conversion of tyrosine to adrenaline thus boosts dopamine. Dopamine gives you that good mood, focused, feel good sensation.

Serotonin's main purpose is to regulate sleep, mood and appetite. Serotonin (as well as estrogen) are good hormones if they're in normal level, but when you have either high/low serotonin/estrogen is when you have health problems. You need a normal level of estrogen to maintain bioavailability of zinc and copper.

However, consuming so much sugar reduces serotonin stores overtime. Add supplements that suppress serotonin then you find yourself very low in serotonin. Hence, high adrenaline symptoms as you described yourself. Taking tyrosine (which its pathway can be converted into adrenaline) is a recipe of disaster in your particular context. Taking tyrosine may not be a bad thing if you have normal level of serotonin.

Although I agree with Peat that high serotonin is dangerous, I'm puzzled why he recommends lots of sugar-based food as the staple diet.

Eating sugar (high serotonin) + taking serotonin suppressor supplements (low serotonin) = normal serotonin? It seems to be an extreme approach to me. Not to mention serotonin stores deplete overtime after constant high-sugar consumption.

Maybe the more sensible solution is to consume sugar occasionally to boost domapine and metabolism as snacks, instead. Therefore, you won't raise serotonin too much and keep your insulin spike in check, especially if you have insulin resistance issues (like me).

Balance is everything. Our body does not like extremeties.

 

[Bulletproof?]

If the point is to lower serotonin, why consume so much sugar? Sugar raises serotonin. A simple googling "sugar serotonin" will explain this.

This is why when you eat sugar or chocolate you feel really good. Both of them raises serotonin which prevents the conversion of tyrosine to adrenaline thus boosts dopamine. Dopamine gives you that good mood, focused, feel good sensation.

Serotonin's main purpose is to regulate sleep, mood and appetite. Serotonin (as well as estrogen) are good hormones if they're in normal level, but when you have either high/low serotonin/estrogen is when you have health problems. You need a normal level of estrogen to maintain bioavailability of zinc and copper.

However, consuming so much sugar reduces serotonin stores overtime. Add supplements that suppress serotonin then you find yourself very low in serotonin. Hence, high adrenaline symptoms as you described yourself. Taking tyrosine (which its pathway can be converted into adrenaline) is a recipe of disaster in your particular context. Taking tyrosine may not be a bad thing if you have normal level of serotonin.

Although I agree with Peat that high serotonin is dangerous, I'm puzzled why he recommends lots of sugar-based food as the staple diet.

Eating sugar (high serotonin) + taking serotonin suppressor supplements (low serotonin) = normal serotonin? It seems to be an extreme approach to me. Not to mention serotonin stores deplete overtime after constant high-sugar consumption.

Maybe the more sensible solution is to consume sugar occasionally to boost domapine and metabolism as snacks, instead. Therefore, you won't raise serotonin too much and keep your insulin spike in check, especially if you have insulin resistance issues (like me).

Balance is everything. Our body does not like extremeties.

Wow! That makes sense. So many of us here experience that adrenaline/anxiety feeling when we take dopamine agonists like Cabergoline, Tyrosine, Methylene Blue, or Deprenyl. But you mention that sugar raises serotonin, then that should mean my serotonin should be super high, right now, because I have been eating A LOT of sugar since learning about RP, and that's been only a few weeks. Before that I avoided sugar and carbs like the plague.

 

[Strongbad]

Wow! That makes sense. So many of us here experience that adrenaline/anxiety feeling when we take dopamine agonists like Cabergoline, Tyrosine, Methylene Blue, or Deprenyl. But you mention that sugar raises serotonin, then that should mean my serotonin should be super high, right now, because I have been eating A LOT of sugar since learning about RP, and that's been only a few weeks. Before that I avoided sugar and carbs like the plague.

I do agree with Ray Peat regarding sugar to boost metabolism and dopamine. But IMO it should be taken sparingly, not excessively.

That's why it's important to listen to our bodies. Some of us can tolerate more sugar than other. Our bodies are different. Our current health context are different.

 

[tara]

I couldn't take deep breaths or relax or even sleep well for some time, but last night I took some benadryl and slept ok, but woke up without that anxious feeling that I have had for several days now. Could all of that anxiety and restlessness be caused from just histamines? I mean, I have taken charcoal, Taurine, Pregnenolone, DHEA, Tyrosine Lysine, niacinimide, and aspirin, but that feeling persisted until I took Benadryl.

Also drinking a lot of strong coffee and supplementing thyroid (btw, have you done anything yet to assess whether you need this?).

Given that you have in a short time made radical changes to your diet, added several supplements - some of them at highish doses, and some of them with known potential to increase adrenaline effects in some people, and are now experiencing symptoms you don't like, it's not obvious to me that the optimal solution will be to quickly add more supplements/drugs. If you were not feeling this anxious before you made all these changes, maybe you would be better off with a gentler transition, watching for the effects of changes as you make them?
This is just my speculation, not an expert opinion.

The anxiety feeling hasn't come back at all today and it is something that has been with me every single minute of everyday for several days now, and the only difference has been the Bendryl. @Strongbad isn't the point to lower serotonin? RP and Haidut mention often that the goal is to lower serotonin. Am I missing something?

Strongbad is off on a different tangent to Peat. I believe diphenhydramine opposes serotonin. Assuming that is the kind of Benadryl you have, that could well be one of the reasons it helped you sleep.

A simple googling "sugar serotonin" will explain this.

A simple googling can find us all sorts of explanations of all sorts of things, some of which may turn out to be true.
People's search results vary, so you may not get the same results as me. My my top google hit for this was an article with many assumptions that contradicted Peat's ideas, and many leaps from correlation to causation. Eg there was a thread from sunlight via serotonin to improved mood. But no recognition of the effects of red light on cellular energy production via cytochrome C. Not saying there may not also be some things in there that are a real part of the picture.

Bulletproof, have you read any of Peat's articles on serotonin? eg Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

 

[Bulletproof?]

Also drinking a lot of strong coffee and supplementing thyroid (btw, have you done anything yet to assess whether you need this?).

Given that you have in a short time made radical changes to your diet, added several supplements - some of them at highish doses, and some of them with known potential to increase adrenaline effects in some people, and are now experiencing symptoms you don't like, it's not obvious to me that the optimal solution will be to quickly add more supplements/drugs. If you were not feeling this anxious before you made all these changes, maybe you would be better off with a gentler transition, watching for the effects of changes as you make them?
This is just my speculation, not an expert opinion.



Strongbad is off on a different tangent to Peat. I believe diphenhydramine opposes serotonin. Assuming that is the kind of Benadryl you have, that could well be one of the reasons it helped you sleep.


A simple googling can find us all sorts of explanations of all sorts of things, some of which may turn out to be true.
People's search results vary, so you may not get the same results as me. My my top google hit for this was an article with many assumptions that contradicted Peat's ideas, and many leaps from correlation to causation. Eg there was a thread from sunlight via serotonin to improved mood. But no recognition of the effects of red light on cellular energy production via cytochrome C. Not saying there may not also be some things in there that are a real part of the picture.

Bulletproof, have you read any of Peat's articles on serotonin? eg Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

Yeah. You are right, Tara. It was too much too soon. This started by just adding T3 and eating so much sugar. Everything after that has been to try and calm the anxiety. My reasons for taking T3 is that my body temps were low, the outer part of my eyebrow is gone, I have premature greg hair, balding, and cholesterol at about 300. And I understand from Lita Lee that cholesterol is almost a diagnosis of being hypothyroid. I have read some, but I will read those articles, thank you for your help, Tara.

 

[whit]

I admire your willingness to dive in.
I'm with Tara on this. It's healthy to start slow especially with DHEA.
It wasn't as easy as sugar and thyroid for me.
It's likely some of the Randall syndrome is going on, raising lactic acid instead of CO2.
Some of the starches can cause anxiety through fementation in animals studies.

You may be able to benefit from some of Danny Roddy's work. He's helped me unpack some of Peats ideas.
There's quite a bit on utube.

 

[tara]

That's why it's important to listen to our bodies. Some of us can tolerate more sugar than other. Our bodies are different. Our current health context are different.

I agree.

 

[Bulletproof?]

Update. @tara @haidut most of my anxiety is gone now, since I started using Cyprohepadine and Bromocriptine about a week ago. I'm up to 6mg of Cypro and 2mg of Bromo. I am sleeping much better and am feeling a little better. I'm still feeling a little sleepy during the day after I take Cypro, but it's not too bad. The problem that I am still having are VERY low energy and NO libido to speak of. Ever since I started Peating I haven't had one single day with Libido. It's becoming really frustrating. I also don't have that much energy and run out of breath even my walking up some stairs. I'm still also unable to take deep breaths or even hold my breath for longer than 10-15 senconds. My biggest issue, right now, is the lack of libido! What can I do for that? I'm taking Pansterone 2-3x per day, Energin, MitoLipin, Tyromax 4 drops per day, Kuinone, 30-45mcg T3 in divided doses, and I have been using 3-4g or DHT cream per day and still no energy or libido! What the heck?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Giraffe]

It has only been about 3 weeks since I found this forum and Peat's teachings. Since then I have been eating plenty of sugar with coffee, orange juice, Hagen Daz Coffee Ice Cream that has just skim milk, cream, coffee, and sugar, and I have gained another 10lbs, but am feeling better.

I think it is not safe to get a large part of the carbs from table sugar. You risk to run out of minerals and vitamins, e.g. potassium is needed to process sugars.

I think it's quite common for it to take the digestive system a bit of time to adapt to changes in diet, esp. significant ones as you have made.

Take it slow with dietary changes, and don't add too many supplements too soon.

I will add some more magnesium.

Broth from leafy greens is a good source, also topical magnesium chloride (magnesium oil) or epsom salt baths. Some here made good experiences with magnesium bicarbonate.

I do eat a raw carrot every single day and I feel a warm sensation all over my body with it.

Are you grating the carrot? You get more benefits from grated carrot. Add a little apple cider vinegar and coconut or olive oil.

I have premature greg hair, balding, and cholesterol at about 300.

Vitamin A is needed to convert cholesterol into other substances. Liver is a very good food source. Are you getting enough vitamin A (not beta carotene) from your diet?

I'm taking Pansterone 2-3x per day, Energin, MitoLipin, Tyromax 4 drops per day, Kuinone, 30-45mcg T3 in divided doses, and I have been using 3-4g or DHT cream per day and still no energy or libido! What the heck?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I suspect that you want too much too soon. Low energy might be a protective mechanism, a sign that you need rest. It took some time to get you where you are (e.g. to lose the outher thirds of your eyebrows), and it can take a bit to repair it. Anxiety is a sign of stress (any kind of stress incl. inflammation). If you are running from a lion, it's not time to repair anything, and it's not time for procreation. Don't try to push things. :)

If I were you I would cut down on the T3 a bit, and I would postpone any experiments with DHEA and DHT until you have the basics covered. I would also consider supplementing some vitamin E.

 

[Bulletproof?]

I think it is not safe to get a large part of the carbs from table sugar. You risk to run out of minerals and vitamins, e.g. potassium is needed to process sugars.


Take it slow with dietary changes, and don't add too many supplements too soon.


Broth from leafy greens is a good source, also topical magnesium chloride (magnesium oil) or epsom salt baths. Some here made good experiences with magnesium bicarbonate.


Are you grating the carrot? You get more benefits from grated carrot. Add a little apple cider vinegar and coconut or olive oil.


Vitamin A is needed to convert cholesterol into other substances. Liver is a very good food source. Are you getting enough vitamin A (not beta carotene) from your diet?


I suspect that you want too much too soon. Low energy might be a protective mechanism, a sign that you need rest. It took some time to get you where you are (e.g. to lose the outher thirds of your eyebrows), and it can take a bit to repair it. Anxiety is a sign of stress (any kind of stress incl. inflammation). If you are running from a lion, it's not time to repair anything, and it's not time for procreation. Don't try to push things. :)

If I were you I would cut down on the T3 a bit, and I would postpone any experiments with DHEA and DHT until you have the basics covered. I would also consider supplementing some vitamin E.

I am just esting the raw carrot and not grating it. I do dip it in coconut oil, salt, and Apple Cider Vinegar, though, I forgot to mention that I am taking Haiduts Retinol vitamin A at 20,000 iu per day, and Estroban, and Unique E vitamin E at 1,200 iu. I have only recently added the high dose vitamin E.

The strange thing is that before BP(Before Peat) I used to have one or two days per week of libido, AP(After Peat) I have had ZERO days of libido in over a month. I would expect things to get better and not worse. I will drink more orange juice and add some casein. It's strange that all over the web people are talking about how dangerous casein protein is and how it can cause cancer, but here it is recommended.

Less T3? I thought 30mcg per day was a small dose. I was thinking of raising it, but I will back off a little bit more.

It is so frustrating because I have read on this forum things like, "Cypro increased my libido overnight." "Pansterone is a miracle and has drastically improved my mood and libido in just a few days." Or "Theanine is amazing!!!" And yet I don't EVER feel anything from most things. Even DHT, which is supposed to help the vast majority of people, didn't do squat for me.

 

[Giraffe]

It's strange that all over the web people are talking about how dangerous casein protein is and how it can cause cancer, but here it is recommended.

There are few discussions here in the forum. I remember this one off the top of my head: Dairy Intake and Prostate Cancer. You will find more if you search the forum.

Less T3? I thought 30mcg per day was a small dose. I was thinking of raising it, but I will back off a little bit more.

Peat often recommends to first try to solve the problem with diet (adequate protein, a piece of fruit or juice between meals). When taking T3, 10 - 15 mcg per day is a good dose (taken in small amounts throughout the day). He mentioned that the body normally produces about 4 mcg of T3 in an hour. Don't forget that you get a little from Thyromax and that you produce your own T3 (thyroid gland, liver).

These figures are not cut in stone: the requirements differ between people, they are higher when the days are short, the potency of thyroid supplements differs widely. Best is to dose according to symptoms, but start small and raise slowly.

It is so frustrating because I have read on this forum things like, "Cypro increased my libido overnight." "Pansterone is a miracle and has drastically improved my mood and libido in just a few days." Or "Theanine is amazing!!!" And yet I don't EVER feel anything from most things.

I hear you. I tried cypro for sleep, and I hoped it would help with my sinus issues. It worked once (at 2 mg), but ever since it only made RLS worse. At 1 mg I don't notice anything, but a constipating effect. After a month's use (mirtazapine, a similar drug) I noticed that my mood became a bit better, but longterm it was not worth the side-effects. I am now taking cypro only once in a while (according to symptoms).

With all supplements I have ever tried I either felt no effect at all or I had a positive effect only once, but over the months things are getting better. I can't say how much the supplements help, or if diet and life-style do the trick. The fastest progress I made when I started a Peat inspired approach, and at this time I did not take supplements (other than vitamin E at 400 IU once or twice a week and a little magnesium).

Hang in there! Be patient. :)