Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

[Dopamine]

No, it is not just personal experience. This topic has been discussed so many times. Did you search the forum?

I know it has been discussed many times but I haven't seen any studies posted showing it reverses liver dysfunction (please correct me if i'm wrong). I also don't understand the mechanism as to why it's good for the liver. If it helps the liver by inhibiting aromatase than I would guess Vitamin E is even better. If it is acting like an antibiotic/ lowering endotoxin then I would guess beta lapachone, emodin, tetracycline, or even coconut oil would be more effective.

I might be missing key pieces of information... sometimes it is hard to find certain topics on this forum.

I'm guessing all the fat solubles are good for liver health and have numerous complex mechanisms that create this effect. I just don't see why K2 is special for liver health.

 

[haidut]

I know it has been discussed many times but I haven't seen any studies posted showing it reverses liver dysfunction (please correct me if i'm wrong). I also don't understand the mechanism as to why it's good for the liver. If it helps the liver by inhibiting aromatase than I would guess Vitamin E is even better. If it is acting like an antibiotic/ lowering endotoxin then I would guess beta lapachone, emodin, tetracycline, or even coconut oil would be more effective.

I might be missing key pieces of information... sometimes it is hard to find certain topics on this forum.

I'm guessing all the fat solubles are good for liver health and have numerous complex mechanisms that create this effect. I just don't see why K2 is special for liver health.

There are many plausible mechanisms, but I think a few of the most relevant ones for the liver are reduction in inflammation, acceleration of estrogen oxidation and thus elimination, and improvement of cell metabolism given vitamin K being a quinone. Here is one study that talks about the anti-inflamamtory effects of vitamin K on liver. The anti-inflammatory effects of vitamin K are pretty similar to the ones of aspirin.
Menatetrenone, a vitamin K2 analogue, inhibits hepatocellular carcinoma cell growth by suppressing cyclin D1 expression through inhibition of nucle... - PubMed - NCBI
As far as quinones being beneficial to liver health, this is not something new and the research goes back to the 1950s. As such, you'd expect other quinones to have similarly beneficial effects and this is indeed the case.
Aloe-Emodin quinone pretreatment reduces acute liver injury induced by carbon tetrachloride. - PubMed - NCBI
Pyrroloquinoline-Quinone Suppresses Liver Fibrogenesis in Mice

From the bioenergetic point of view all disease states are due to inhibition of electron flow and thus build up of free electrons. This means electron withdrawing agents would be beneficial for health. Lewis acids are by definition electron withdrawing agents and examples of Lewis acids includes CO2, most quinones, caffeine, selenium, magnesium, sodium, the tetracyclines, methylene blue, etc. All of these have proven beneficial effects on the liver as expected.
So, whether it's the liver or any other organ using chemicals that act like Lewis acids would likely be beneficial. Vitamin K just happens to target the liver when administered orally just like minocycline targets the CNS even though both have systemic effects and act on all organs.

 

[ecstatichamster]

@haidut what do you think about grounding yourself as a way to fight systemic inflammation?

 

[haidut]

@haidut what do you think about grounding yourself as a way to fight systemic inflammation?

I think it is a good approach but don't know that much has been studied in controlled fashion in order to know how often it needs to be done and for how long.

 

[Dopamine]

There are many plausible mechanisms, but I think a few of the most relevant ones for the liver are reduction in inflammation, acceleration of estrogen oxidation and thus elimination, and improvement of cell metabolism given vitamin K being a quinone. Here is one study that talks about the anti-inflamamtory effects of vitamin K on liver. The anti-inflammatory effects of vitamin K are pretty similar to the ones of aspirin.
Menatetrenone, a vitamin K2 analogue, inhibits hepatocellular carcinoma cell growth by suppressing cyclin D1 expression through inhibition of nucle... - PubMed - NCBI
As far as quinones being beneficial to liver health, this is not something new and the research goes back to the 1950s. As such, you'd expect other quinones to have similarly beneficial effects and this is indeed the case.
Aloe-Emodin quinone pretreatment reduces acute liver injury induced by carbon tetrachloride. - PubMed - NCBI
Pyrroloquinoline-Quinone Suppresses Liver Fibrogenesis in Mice

From the bioenergetic point of view all disease states are due to inhibition of electron flow and thus build up of free electrons. This means electron withdrawing agents would be beneficial for health. Lewis acids are by definition electron withdrawing agents and examples of Lewis acids includes CO2, most quinones, caffeine, selenium, magnesium, sodium, the tetracyclines, methylene blue, etc. All of these have proven beneficial effects on the liver as expected.
So, whether it's the liver or any other organ using chemicals that act like Lewis acids would likely be beneficial. Vitamin K just happens to target the liver when administered orally just like minocycline targets the CNS even though both have systemic effects and act on all organs.

That makes a lot more sense. Thank you.

I suppose having a large presence of electron withdrawing agents in particular tissues is going to accelerate the metabolism and energy of those tissues. I know you've posted about how Vit. K is good for mental health as well and it seems Vit. MK4 accumulates in brain tissues in a saturation level reflecting exogenous intake. Another reason to get extra Vit. K in MK4 form and not MK7 maybe- Not just for the liver but for systemic effects on all organs like you said.

Vitamin K and the Nervous System: An Overview of its Actions
"Reports published in the past 2 decades confirmed the presence of vitamin K in the brain. However, although in the majority of extrahepatic tissues, vitamin K is present as phylloquinone (K1) and MK-4, vitamin K in the brain occurs predominantly as MK-4 (6, 7). When investigated in 6- and 21-mo-old rats, MK-4 was found to represent >98% of total vitamin K in the brain, irrespective of age (8,9). In a detailed assessment of the anatomic distribution of vitamin K, MK-4 was present in all brain regions, although concentrations differed according to regions. Specifically, MK-4 was observed in highest concentrations in the midbrain and pons medulla and in lowest concentrations in the cerebellum, olfactory bulb, thalamus, hippocampus, and striatum (8)."

"Vitamin K concentrations in the brain are also influenced by diet in a manner that reflects intake. When investigated in female Sprague-Dawley rats that had been fed diets containing low (80 μg/kg diet), adequate (500 μg/kg diet), or high (2000 μg/kg diet) amounts of phylloquinone for 5 mo, MK-4 tissue concentrations from the high phylloquinone-containing diet rats were on average 8 and 3 times higher than those for the low and adequate phylloquinone-containing diet rats, respectively (8)."

Kind of concerning that my mother was put on Warfarin (vitamin K antagonist) when pregnant with me to thin her blood... It is a multi purpose drug apparently also used as a pesticide against rats and mice lol. Can't be good for a fetus' brain. She was on aspirin at the same time so maybe that saved me a few IQ points

 

[haidut]

That makes a lot more sense. Thank you.

I suppose having a large presence of electron withdrawing agents in particular tissues is going to accelerate the metabolism and energy of those tissues. I know you've posted about how Vit. K is good for mental health as well and it seems Vit. MK4 accumulates in brain tissues in a saturation level reflecting exogenous intake. Another reason to get extra Vit. K in MK4 form and not MK7 maybe- Not just for the liver but for systemic effects on all organs like you said.

Vitamin K and the Nervous System: An Overview of its Actions
"Reports published in the past 2 decades confirmed the presence of vitamin K in the brain. However, although in the majority of extrahepatic tissues, vitamin K is present as phylloquinone (K1) and MK-4, vitamin K in the brain occurs predominantly as MK-4 (6, 7). When investigated in 6- and 21-mo-old rats, MK-4 was found to represent >98% of total vitamin K in the brain, irrespective of age (8,9). In a detailed assessment of the anatomic distribution of vitamin K, MK-4 was present in all brain regions, although concentrations differed according to regions. Specifically, MK-4 was observed in highest concentrations in the midbrain and pons medulla and in lowest concentrations in the cerebellum, olfactory bulb, thalamus, hippocampus, and striatum (8)."

"Vitamin K concentrations in the brain are also influenced by diet in a manner that reflects intake. When investigated in female Sprague-Dawley rats that had been fed diets containing low (80 μg/kg diet), adequate (500 μg/kg diet), or high (2000 μg/kg diet) amounts of phylloquinone for 5 mo, MK-4 tissue concentrations from the high phylloquinone-containing diet rats were on average 8 and 3 times higher than those for the low and adequate phylloquinone-containing diet rats, respectively (8)."

Kind of concerning that my mother was put on Warfarin (vitamin K antagonist) when pregnant with me to thin her blood... It is a multi purpose drug apparently also used as a pesticide against rats and mice lol. Can't be good for a fetus' brain. She was on aspirin at the same time so maybe that saved me a few IQ points

Never too late to give her (and yourself) some extra K2 (MK-4) supplements. There is a study showing MK-4 can prevent (and maybe even treat) Parkinson's so the effects on brain are definitely there. I think other quinones like emodin that can be obtained much more cheaply from cascara bark may achieve the same thing. However, I have not seen a stud showing the brain preferentially accumulates emodin as it does vitamin K. So, vitamin K may be the preferred quinone for the brain after all.

 

[Sam Suska]

Hi all. Since about the middle of May I've been following this thread, a Ray Peat type of diet, and much of Haiduts advice. My results are incredible. I am a professional firefighter, experienced/active personal trainer and a professional boxer; and I must say that at 33 years old this Ray Peat stuff and Haidut advice has worked wonders for me. I think a few months ago my liver was in bad shape, and my thyroid was slow and my metabolism was deficient; yet I have no blood tests as proof, although I have lost about 15 pounds in the past 3 months. I must say that I workout pretty extreme though; but I have for about 10 years, so I credit this lifestyle.

For the last 10+ weeks I've worked my way up to about 800mg of caffeine per day largely from coffee and espresso. On the daily I take about 1.5g of aspirin, lots of k2, 10g of glycine and 10g of taurine with 1g of theanine, some vitamin E, B1, B6, biotin and 1.5g of niacinmide. My energy for my demanding job of firefighter is at an all-time high, and I have no problem being energetic and happy for my second job as a trainer. A month ago I competed in a pro boxing match and won by TKO, and looked decent but felt great. I just want to say thanks to everyone here, especially in this thread, and @haidut for his free advice. Take care.

 

[haidut]

Hi all. Since about the middle of May I've been following this thread, a Ray Peat type of diet, and much of Haiduts advice. My results are incredible. I am a professional firefighter, experienced/active personal trainer and a professional boxer; and I must say that at 33 years old this Ray Peat stuff and Haidut advice has worked wonders for me. I think a few months ago my liver was in bad shape, and my thyroid was slow and my metabolism was deficient; yet I have no blood tests as proof, although I have lost about 15 pounds in the past 3 months. I must say that I workout pretty extreme though; but I have for about 10 years, so I credit this lifestyle.

For the last 10+ weeks I've worked my way up to about 800mg of caffeine per day largely from coffee and espresso. On the daily I take about 1.5g of aspirin, lots of k2, 10g of glycine and 10g of taurine with 1g of theanine, some vitamin E, B1, B6, biotin and 1.5g of niacinmide. My energy for my demanding job of firefighter is at an all-time high, and I have no problem being energetic and happy for my second job as a trainer. A month ago I competed in a pro boxing match and won by TKO, and looked decent but felt great. I just want to say thanks to everyone here, especially in this thread, and @haidut for his free advice. Take care.

This is awesome! Do you have some pics of the match? Or maybe a video? It would be great to watch raw Peatarian power, firefighter-style

 

[Sam Suska]

This is awesome! Do you have some pics of the match? Or maybe a video? It would be great to watch raw Peatarian power, firefighter-style :)

Absolutely. Here it is:
Sam "The Butcher" Suska Vs. Rick Morias: Full Fight

 

[Peata]

Absolutely. Here it is:
Sam "The Butcher" Suska Vs. Rick Morias: Full Fight

Buy Sam a drink and get his dog one too!


I can't watch boxing, (hate to see anything in real life where people get their head hit), but I watched that all the way through, and you barely looked tired. Congrats on your win and your success with your diet/lifestyle.

 

[haidut]

Absolutely. Here it is:
Sam "The Butcher" Suska Vs. Rick Morias: Full Fight

Absolutely loving it! I actually think your fight is a lot more spectacular than the professional boxing matches on TV which all look scripted to me. I never saw the boxers on TV pound each other like you guys did. Man, you do know how to fight. Is this a requirement for the job btw? Do you guys run into some tough characters that need to be subdued?
And yeah, the other guy looked exhausted after the first 2min. Is he also into Pansterone and Peating?

 

[jaa]

Damn Sam that was impressive technique! I like your dipping jab to the body

 

[Sam Suska]

Absolutely loving it! I actually think your fight is a lot more spectacular than the professional boxing matches on TV which all look scripted to me. I never saw the boxers on TV pound each other like you guys did. Man, you do know how to fight. Is this a requirement for the job btw? Do you guys run into some tough characters that need to be subdued?
And yeah, the other guy looked exhausted after the first 2min. Is he also into Pansterone and Peating?

I wish fighting and aggression were a firefighter requirement. Unfortunately we mostly act as first responders to various emergencies- not too many fires or serious rescue situations. Not many fighters or athletes in general know about Peating or any of the related supplements. I got into Peat because I suffered from estrogen from 2009-2013, and I am still recovering. I ate about 3,000 calories in training camp for my fights whereas most other boxers in my situation starve themselves at 1,500-2,000 calories; so I see why so many boxers gain so much weight after fights and after their careers end. I've gained back 1 pound since my fight. Peating and the related supplements, etc. may help me easily box at a lower weight class, which is a great thing.

 

[Sam Suska]

Damn Sam that was impressive technique! I like your dipping jab to the body

Thanks. The job to the body and working the body in general are my signatures.

 

[Regina]

Absolutely. Here it is:
Sam "The Butcher" Suska Vs. Rick Morias: Full Fight

I think this the fight.
Love it, man! Wonderful linear and "entering in" style.
Your opponent never once had his energy directed toward you and also tried to rely on wide hooks.
Pretty much the exact opposite of you.

 

[Milena]

Can the mods add 'Liver' somewhere into the title of this thread and maybe NALFD, too.
I have been searching and only found this thread by accident.

 

[T-3]

The first day I took 600mg in one sitting I had trouble sleeping. After 2 days however it actually started making me sleepy. I know other people who were perked up by caffeine initially but then became sedated by it.
If it still affects your sleep after a few days I'd reduce the dosage and only increase it once a week by 200mg.

I also find caffeine sedating on quite a few (but not all) occasions. I regularly take well over 1000mg during the day. Then I often drift off to sleep (sometimes unintentionally) shortly after taking a bedtime dose (intended to keep me reading/working) 200mg + two cups of coffee. I would be interested to hear more about those who experience sedation from caffeine because I've noticed this for 10 years or more as a longtime very heavy coffee drinker. After reading Ray and Haidut, I've been upping doses using caffeine pills on top of coffee. There is a profile of noticeable caffeine overdose symptoms. For me, computer fonts become unreadable as if the mind is seeing each font with such granularity that each one looks like a dot-matrix abstract image. My mind stops being able to see computer-screen fonts as approximately smooth and recognizable shapes. That's when I know I've had too much. Other than that, the effects of taking large-dose caffeine have become more and more compressed, less noticeable, but almost all positive and associated with feeling positively engaged with the world ready for a state of serious play.

 

[Orion]

I have read through this thread again, since I am still having issues with caffeine stress response. Going to attempt the ~1,000mg daily range and push through the stress response with B1/B3/cypro/theanine/taurine. Using K2 ~10mg.

Been using 200-400mg caffeine daily for the past year and glycogen storage is still not optimal. So I suspect fibrosis issues over NAFLD, as also been doing PUFA depletion for 6 months (zero fat and zero starch).

Will try to update, week by week.

 

[Regina]

I have read through this thread again, since I am still having issues with caffeine stress response. Going to attempt the ~1,000mg daily range and push through the stress response with B1/B3/cypro/theanine/taurine. Using K2 ~10mg.

Been using 200-400mg caffeine daily for the past year and glycogen storage is still not optimal. So I suspect fibrosis issues over NAFLD, as also been doing PUFA depletion for 6 months (zero fat and zero starch).

Will try to update, week by week.

Cool! I'm looking at things and attempting with a similar approach.
Looking forward to your updates.

 

[JDreamer]

I was taking both caffeine and vitamin K2. That was more than a year ago, and I was taking 400mg caffeine and 15mg - 30mg K2 (MK-4). Within a week I was able to pound 1,000mg+ daily and that "tolerance" never disappeared afterwards. Within 2 weeks I was able to skip meals without getting stress reaction symptoms, which means glycogen storage improved a lot. I am assuming the "tolerance" to caffeine the studies talk about is simply improved liver function and ability to metabolize caffeine quickly.

Verrrrrrry interesting.

I can always feel the stress response immediately when I miss my meals.