Can I Live Off Of Milk And Orange Juice Alone?

[Westside PUFAs]

To answer your question, can you?

Yes, you could.

Will you thrive?

No.

Will you do it for the rest of your life?

No.

At least throw a Peat carrot in there for some fiber.

 

[YuraCZ]

liquid diet only will **** you up completely. From the teeth to the colon.. Good Luck..

 

[schultz]

Don't you think the coffee would grab onto the manganese?

Do you mean inside the body or the grinds would bind the manganese and not let it go into the brewed liquid?

The manganese figures I got for coffee are based on brewed coffee. Are you proposing that the manganese wouldn't be absorbed from this?

I think things like lead and cadmium are retained in the actual grinds.

That it would be difficult to absorb.

Oh, well I don't know to be honest. Maybe you know something I don't? What is your reason for thinking it would be hard to absorb? Something intrinsic to coffee? If it's not absorb-able then that sucks 'cause I thought I was on to something with this whole manganese and coffee thing...

 

[schultz]

If you add potatoes and butter once a week you'll be fine. In fact, it has been shown that you can live only on potatoes and butter indefinitely (the study was 2 years I think) and not incur deficiencies.Potato is really good, it will drain you of the extra ammonia all protein produces through metabolism.
I agree with user "john" above - iron stores would be the only concern on high milk diet. My ferritin dropped from 87 to 59 in just 6 months of high milk and cheese diet. Milk chelates iron very well so be aware of this potential side effect.

No one has really defined how much of the 2 of these things a person would be eating if they were to be living off this diet. When I answered above I was thinking 16 cups of 1% milk and 16 cups of juice. I would do most, if not all, of the juice in concentrate form as to lower the liquid. A friend of mine combines milk and OJ concentrate and calls it orange milk (clever name! ), this way when he drinks 1 cup of milk he is also getting the equivalent of one cup of juice.

16 cups of OJ and 16 cups of milk give 9.1mg of iron, which for me is 114% of DV.
Haidut, do you think this amount of iron would not be enough given the large amount of milk present?

Of course if I were to do this diet I would add coffee in. Who wants to live without coffee? Though the thread simply asks about living off OJ and milk so the coffee is kind of beyond the threads question. However, the coffee would give you the manganese. You would be relying on bacteria for your vitamin K, unless you were drinking grass-fed milk.

Between the citric acid in OJ (which is an iron chelator) and milk one may need some more iron-rich foods to compensate. I think the suggestion above about liver once a week should give enough iron and copper to balance things out.

What about the vitamin C in the orange juice? Doesn't that enhance absorption?

 

[haidut]

If you add potatoes and butter once a week you'll be fine. In fact, it has been shown that you can live only on potatoes and butter indefinitely (the study was 2 years I think) and not incur deficiencies.Potato is really good, it will drain you of the extra ammonia all protein produces through metabolism.
I agree with user "john" above - iron stores would be the only concern on high milk diet. My ferritin dropped from 87 to 59 in just 6 months of high milk and cheese diet. Milk chelates iron very well so be aware of this potential side effect.

No one has really defined how much of the 2 of these things a person would be eating if they were to be living off this diet. When I answered above I was thinking 16 cups of 1% milk and 16 cups of juice. I would do most, if not all, of the juice in concentrate form as to lower the liquid. A friend of mine combines milk and OJ concentrate and calls it orange milk (clever name! ), this way when he drinks 1 cup of milk he is also getting the equivalent of one cup of juice.

16 cups of OJ and 16 cups of milk give 9.1mg of iron, which for me is 114% of DV.
Haidut, do you think this amount of iron would not be enough given the large amount of milk present?

Of course if I were to do this diet I would add coffee in. Who wants to live without coffee? Though the thread simply asks about living off OJ and milk so the coffee is kind of beyond the threads question. However, the coffee would give you the manganese. You would be relying on bacteria for your vitamin K, unless you were drinking grass-fed milk.

Between the citric acid in OJ (which is an iron chelator) and milk one may need some more iron-rich foods to compensate. I think the suggestion above about liver once a week should give enough iron and copper to balance things out.

What about the vitamin C in the orange juice? Doesn't that enhance absorption?

It does, but I am assuming all the iron you are getting is from milk and orange juice. In that case the chelation effect will be stronger than the absorption increase due to vitamin C.

 

[DKayJoe]

liquid diet only will f*** you up completely. From the teeth to the colon.. Good Luck..

Any scientific backing for this?

 

[johns74]

It does, but I am assuming all the iron you are getting is from milk and orange juice. In that case the chelation effect will be stronger than the absorption increase due to vitamin C.

Does the 'chelation effect' of milk and orange juice remove iron out of the body?

If not, how is it relevant?

 

[schultz]

It does, but I am assuming all the iron you are getting is from milk and orange juice. In that case the chelation effect will be stronger than the absorption increase due to vitamin C.

Does the 'chelation effect' of milk and orange juice remove iron out from the body?

If not, how is it relevant?

Are you suggesting it's not relevant due to adults having pretty big iron stores, regardless of any dietary intake?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Oh, well I don't know to be honest. Maybe you know something I don't? What is your reason for thinking it would be hard to absorb? Something intrinsic to coffee? If it's not absorb-able then that sucks 'cause I thought I was on to something with this whole manganese and coffee thing...

Well it binds to iron, does it not? I imagine it would be bound pretty well to its own stuff.

liquid diet only will f*** you up completely. From the teeth to the colon.. Good Luck..

Exactly. Adults are the result world wars and stuff.

 

[haidut]

It does, but I am assuming all the iron you are getting is from milk and orange juice. In that case the chelation effect will be stronger than the absorption increase due to vitamin C.

Does the 'chelation effect' of milk and orange juice remove iron out of the body?

If not, how is it relevant?

Yes, both citric acid and the protein lactoferrin in milk chelate iron out of the body. Milk is especially effective, and this is a common cause of iron deficiency anemia in toddlers who are mostly breast fed beyond the age of 12 months.

 

[johns74]

milk chelate iron out of the body

Source?

 

[johns74]

Milk is especially effective, and this is a common cause of iron deficiency anemia in toddlers who are mostly breast fed beyond the age of 12 months.

I think that's because milk reduces iron absorption, not because it removes it out of the body.

 

[tara]

Hi Dave,
You make some good points, but just wanted to comment on a couple.

Lastly, there's the question of 1% vs skim, and there are quite a few members on this forum who oppose skim due to the cholesterol that is oxidized in its processing. Also note that skim milk is a more expensive option, as you get fewer calories per dollar.
...
As shown, skim milk with coconut oil offers a superior PUFA profile than 1% milk with coconut oil, but at the cost of harmful cholesterol oxidation, fewer calories per dollar, and a lower absorption of fat-soluble vitamins in the milk, which may be augmented by adding melted coconut oil prior to drinking the skim milk.

I think people's concern here about oxidised cholesterol is about powdered milk, and applies at least as much to whole milk powder as to skim milk powder. The concerns I've read about wet skim milk are that some people react badly to the form that supplemental vitamins are added to it.
I agree with your other points about skim versus whole milk.

Why is liver necessary, and why is low iron a problem? Is Peat's iron recommendation misguided for some individuals?

My reading of Peat is that he has said a lot of people benefit from a lowish iron diet, because a lot of people get too much iron. But he has not said this applies to everyone. He has also suggested that for those people who do need more iron (based on iron tests, not just assumptions based on symptoms of eg of anemia), that getting it from iron-rich foods is probably safer, eg liver with OJ to aid absorption. I don't think what Peat has said seems misguided, though it's quite possible that some people's interpretations of his writing might be overly simplistic.

 

[Such_Saturation]

One time Ray Peat told me "Pasteurization is where most of the
oxidation is likely, not the skimming."

 

[haidut]

Milk is especially effective, and this is a common cause of iron deficiency anemia in toddlers who are mostly breast fed beyond the age of 12 months.

I think that's because milk reduces iron absorption, not because it removes it out of the body.

Lactoferrin actually chelates iron already in the body and this is thought to be behind some of the anti-inflammatory effects of raw milk consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160095

 

[johns74]

Lactoferrin actually chelates iron already in the body and this is thought to be behind some of the anti-inflammatory effects of raw milk consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160095

My question was whether it removes iron out of the body, and the source of that claim.

 

[schultz]

It does, but I am assuming all the iron you are getting is from milk and orange juice. In that case the chelation effect will be stronger than the absorption increase due to vitamin C.

Does the 'chelation effect' of milk and orange juice remove iron out of the body?

If not, how is it relevant?

Yes, both citric acid and the protein lactoferrin in milk chelate iron out of the body. Milk is especially effective, and this is a common cause of iron deficiency anemia in toddlers who are mostly breast fed beyond the age of 12 months.

Interesting! I simply thought milk was low in iron, but it actually has a chelating effect lowering iron even more? So what's the big worry about iron then? Assuming one is avoiding grain products with added iron, and multi-vitamins with iron and eating only 4-8oz of meat each day, avoidance of iron seems quite simple and not a big deal at all.

 

[johns74]

I simply thought milk was low in iron, but it actually has a chelating effect lowering iron even more? So what's the big worry about iron then?

Yeah, nothing! Those guys with excess iron doing 50 phlebotomies a year are just uninformed!

Seriously, you guys keep spreading this kind of misinformation you're going to have people reading this forum killed from being misled, if it hasn't happened already.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

So what's the big worry about iron then? Assuming one is avoiding grain products with added iron, and multi-vitamins with iron and eating only 4-8oz of meat each day, avoidance of iron seems quite simple and not a big deal at all.

"The real issue is that you can hardly avoid getting iron, even when you try." - RP

"Iron is a potentially toxic heavy metal; an excess can cause cancer, heart disease, and other illnesses. " - RP

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/iron-dangers.shtml

Also, eating meat each day as you say, is quite an influx of anti-thyroidness, unless glycine is consumed simultaneously.

 

[schultz]

So what's the big worry about iron then? Assuming one is avoiding grain products with added iron, and multi-vitamins with iron and eating only 4-8oz of meat each day, avoidance of iron seems quite simple and not a big deal at all.

"The real issue is that you can hardly avoid getting iron, even when you try." - RP

"Iron is a potentially toxic heavy metal; an excess can cause cancer, heart disease, and other illnesses. " - RP

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/iron-dangers.shtml

I am aware of the problem iron posses. My point was that if you eat a fruit and dairy centered diet, with occasional meat, eggs and starch, and also drink a lot of coffee, then you really have no need to even think about iron because it's already taken care of. The diet is already low in iron and the coffee and milk lower it further.

Ray's article is directed towards the standard diet or people in danger of taking iron supplements, not to people who already eat the way he recommends.

Also, eating meat each day as you say, is quite an influx of anti-thyroidness, unless glycine is consumed simultaneously.

You may be right in the sense of being optimal, and I understand the potential pitfalls of muscle meat, but do you think, for example, that eating 100g of steak and 2 eggs really has that much of an anti-thyroid effect? Ray himself doesn't take glycine, he simply chooses meat cuts that are higher in gelatin.

I simply thought milk was low in iron, but it actually has a chelating effect lowering iron even more? So what's the big worry about iron then?

Yeah, nothing! Those guys with excess iron doing 50 phlebotomies a year are just uninformed!

Seriously, you guys keep spreading this kind of misinformation you're going to have people reading this forum killed from being misled, if it hasn't happened already.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Can you be more clear with your stance?

People have to think for themselves. I'm pretty careful with what I say so if someone kills themselves from something I have written then they were pretty stupid and were probably going to die sooner or later anyway, regardless of what I said on a forum.