Cooperation, And Not Competition, Is Our Thermodynamic Future

[Such_Saturation]

Science has been corrupted. Cooperation is not a property of space. Your interpretation of the paper makes it sound like some global citizen, new world order psyop. Yet another mandate set down by SCIENCE, the new God of our secular religion.

SCIENCE says evolution is real and we're highly evolved primates. Lord have mercy if you believe different.

SCIENCE says black holes are real and the universe started in a big bang. Textbooks rewritten. Questions forbidden.

SCIENCE says global warming is real and is responsible for everything from refugees to hurricanes: billions spent in tracking global warming, green cars, green tax, green legislation, this and that and more of this

Now SCIENCE says we have to come together as one or perish...hmm



Few points:
1) The game is rigged.
2) we're not rational agents.
3) defection is hidden.

Game theory doesn't work in a system as complex and scaled up as ours.

That's because those aren't science. If you get a bit into Ray Peat you will start to see how to distinguish.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

That's because those aren't science. If you get a bit into Ray Peat you will start to see how to distinguish.

Are you kidding? these guys compare game theory to magnetism and then use a simulation of atomic magnetism to predict social behavior. Sounds like pop sci to me.

My original point was that the real world doesn't work like that. You cannot punish those who defect against you because you do not have repeats interactions with the majority of people you meet. Traffic is a good example. You also have no power to punish those who influence your life (tsa workers, judges, cops, presidents, hr) if they defect.

Game theory breaks down at a certain scale. You can't punish the nameless horde. You can't punish the DMV worker. You can't punsh your boss. But you can punish your wife and your children.

Not to mention the hidden defection of the elites. How is it that a handful of people own as much wealth as 50% of humanity. Defection. Defection. Defection.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Are you kidding? these guys compare game theory to magnetism and then use a simulation of atomic magnetism to predict social behavior. Sounds like pop sci to me.

My original point was that the real world doesn't work like that. You cannot punish those who defect against you because you do not have repeats interactions with the majority of people you meet. Traffic is a good example. You also have no power to punish those who influence your life (tsa workers, judges, cops, presidents, hr) if they defect.

Game theory breaks down at a certain scale. You can't punish the nameless horde. You can't punish the DMV worker. You can't punsh your boss. But you can punish your wife and your children.

Not to mention the hidden defection of the elites. How is it that a handful of people own as much wealth as 50% of humanity. Defection. Defection. Defection.

I'm not saying defection is impossible I'm saying cooperation is the most efficient system when working at the global scale. A few working against many can mean great gains for the few, but this is only possible because of smaller defections among us that they can exploit; these happen primarily because of 1. a reciprocating chain of taking advantage / stress, and 2. failure to see the physical properties that make cooperation more desirable.

 

[chrismeyers]

No, just no.. I have a general tenet that I strongly believe in. Advancement and development only occur when individuals each seek their own best interest to their personal benefit. When people collaborate anywhere on anything considered a 'public good' they fail. Conversely, when a guy seeks to invent or improve something for monetary and personal gain, all of society is eventually improved. Let me give you my favorite example. India, up to the 80s was a prototypical commie state set up for the 'public good'. They had one tv channel, state owned. They had 2 airlines, both state owned. One international, one domestic. And relevantly to my major example, they had one phone company, state owned. All lf these state owned services were filled with advertising and messaging to the public how they served the people, and were the national provider of these services to every man, the common man, and most especially to the masses of the poor man. At its peak, the great national telephone company, working with a common national purpose, achieved about 60 million phone connections. This in a nation of 1 billion. Ten years later, India finally opened up its market to a whole lot of people who wanted to personally each get rich and dominate the market. What happened? Today there are approximately 900 million people in India with a phone connection, and about 10 vibrant private companies serving more and more of them in dramatically more advanced ways. Theres a dramatic lesson here. Dramatically more people (almost 150 fold) are now being served versus the collaborative national approach. And this lesson echos in all other industries. India now has a vibrant ultra competitive airline industry. It has 100 tv channels. And every single one of these that have improved the lives of virtually everybody in society came from a system rewarding people looking out for THEIR financial best interest. Your collaborative theory is bunk and leads to stagnation and lack of advancement

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

I'm not saying defection is impossible I'm saying cooperation is the most efficient system when working at the global scale. A few working against many can mean great gains for the few, but this is only possible because of smaller defections among us that they can exploit; these happen primarily because of 1. a reciprocating chain of taking advantage / stress, and 2. failure to see the physical properties that make cooperation more desirable.

1)what defections are they exploiting?

I can spot a few.
greed.
tribalism.
racism.
classism.

2) it's not that they fail to see the benefits of cooperation. That is naivety at best. They're purposefully evil. They believe the world is going to end (yet again) in fire and brimstone and they plan to keep us occupied with A vs B distractions while they C their way out.

 

[Such_Saturation]

1)what defections are they exploiting?

I can spot a few.
greed.
tribalism.
racism.
classism.

2) it's not that they fail to see the benefits of cooperation. That is naivety at best. They're purposefully evil. They believe the world is going to end (yet again) in fire and brimstone and they plan to keep us occupied with A vs B distractions while they C their way out.

Yes that is exactly blindness to the principles. If you have been peating for a while you will notice how many of these nihilistic worldviews melt away when the organism is sufficiently energized.

 

[Such_Saturation]

just no

Ok then

 

[chrismeyers]

Ok then

Read the entire thing kid, and then comment. Youre not that smart, and youre not that stupid. An ok then isnt going to save the societal degradation that would result from the system you propose. Oh yes, you will have all of your common glorious principles and all your isms can be mandated out right? LOL But without that self interest and personal gain as a motivation, you will live in sh-t and be completely convinced it doesnt stink. Its the oppotunity cost that you dont see.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Read the entire thing kid, and then comment. Youre not that smart, and youre not that stupid. An ok then isnt going to save the societal degradation that would result from the system you propose. Oh yes, you will have all of your common glorious principles and all your isms can be mandated out right? LOL But without that self interest and personal gain as a motivation, you will live in sh-t and be completely convinced it doesnt stink. Its the oppotunity cost that you dont see.

I'm not trying to push anything on you. This is something that must emerge physiologically to work, from the ground up. The point is that it will EVENTUALLY

 

[chrismeyers]

I'm not trying to push anything on you. This is something that must emerge physiologically to work, from the ground up. The point is that it will EVENTUALLY

I know you genuinely believe that. Its what I call the bizarro star trek world mentality. That eventually all get together and think collaboratively and cooperatively and society will be utopia. This is the biggest farce in the world. What you would end up with a massive beauracracy and a collective that cant achieve any real progress towards their goals. Think really hard about virtually every single in the 20 and 21st centuries that has dramatically elevated the lives of virtually every person. From electricity to cars to airplanes to steel to smartphones to killer apps. Every single one of these things cascaded out progressively to everybody in society by people ruthlessly seeking their best interest. Competition CREATES advancement, not the other way around. You know why? Because there is always another guy seeking HIS best interest who is going to try to build a better mousetrap in your industry. And thus everybody benefits. This entire notion that competition only ends up looking out for the people trying to get rich is laughable. Infact these people ar always thinking of ways to expand their customer base. They infact will better advance lives than a group of people sitting in a room trying to do something collectively

 

[Such_Saturation]

I know you genuinely believe that. Its what I call the bizarro star trek world mentality. That eventually all get together and think collaboratively and cooperatively and society will be utopia. This is the biggest farce in the world. What you would end up with a massive beauracracy and a collective that cant achieve any real progress towards their goals. Think really hard about virtually every single in the 20 and 21st centuries that has dramatically elevated the lives of virtually every person. From electricity to cars to airplanes to steel to smartphones to killer apps. Every single one of these things cascaded out progressively to everybody in society by people ruthlessly seeking their best interest. Competition CREATES advancement, not the other way around. You know why? Because there is always another guy seeking HIS best interest who is going to try to build a better mousetrap in your industry. And thus everybody benefits. This entire notion that competition only ends up looking out for the people trying to get rich is laughable. Infact these people ar always thinking of ways to expand their customer base. They infact will better advance lives than a group of people sitting in a room trying to do something collectively

Chris, you say there must be winners and losers for things to work, but the very definition of advancement in our case is the elimination of the condition of "loser". You recognize this in your words and it is an inconsistency. A proper directed system needs logical consistency. When everyone recognizes that personal best interest is same as other's best interest and viceversa, the meanings of competition and cooperation merge together. It is the whole that is now working for its own good.

I beg you not to inject "history" into this discussion, as I may treat it the same way you treated my "science". Which is the topic, by the way.

 

[tankasnowgod]

the TLDR for above is simply that anything called "competition" involves a lot of cooperation within it, as a football match you can describe as two teams competing could also be described as two pairs of 20 people cooperating.

Yep, even beyond that, both sides have to a agree to a time and place and rules of the game (more cooperation) before the competition can even take place.

 

[Queequeg]

The goal comes from the bottom because it is a reflection of physical properties. I don't mean we are at an appropriate time for this to happen, I just think it the only possible outcome.

Ahh the New Age Spiritual Awakening. Sounds lovely in theory.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

The belief that civilization after civilization has been destroyed by extra-terrestrial extinction events and that we face such an event in our near future is not nihilistic...it is fact.

But let's stay on point. You must live in a first world country and have low exposure to crime and violence to belief in this ideology. The vast majority of humanity live in slumlike conditions with no hope of a way out. This is the kind of ideology one expects from a white middle class spoiled boy with no exposure to reality.

The reality is that the best way to succeed is through defection. Be it politics, business, finances, etc.

Are you telling me politicians don't lie?
are you telling me African dictators don't make promises to the people while stealing from the national coffers?
are you telling me corporations and businesses don't screw over the little guy?
are you telling me that bureaucrats don't screw over businesses?
are you telling me that soccer players don't fake fouls?!?!
Are you telling me that makeup, high heels, and tight clothes don't make women more sexually attractive ??
Are you telling me that dishonest advertising doesn't work?
Are you telling me that cheaters don't win?
Are you telling me that honesty IS the best policy?

mindblown.gif

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

The best way to succeed in any enterprise is to defect while avoiding punishment. This is why everyone from chimps to district managers kick down and kiss up.

 

[Such_Saturation]

The belief that civilization after civilization has been destroyed by extra-terrestrial extinction events and that we face such an event in our near future is not nihilistic...it is fact.

But let's stay on point. You must live in a first world country and have low exposure to crime and violence to belief in this ideology. The vast majority of humanity live in slumlike conditions with no hope of a way out. This is the kind of ideology one expects from a white middle class spoiled boy with no exposure to reality.

The reality is that the best way to succeed is through defection. Be it politics, business, finances, etc.

Are you telling me politicians don't lie?
are you telling me African dictators don't make promises to the people while stealing from the national coffers?
are you telling me corporations and businesses don't screw over the little guy?
are you telling me that bureaucrats don't screw over businesses?
are you telling me that soccer players don't fake fouls?!?!
Are you telling me that makeup, high heels, and tight clothes don't make women more sexually attractive ??
Are you telling me that dishonest advertising doesn't work?
Are you telling me that cheaters don't win?
Are you telling me that honesty IS the best policy?

mindblown.gif

The selfish behavior is beneficial during the initial stages of the process, we could draw lines with single-celled organisms, for example. Once the drift from glycolysis to oxidation happens, there is a surplus of energy that allows the evolution of a collaborative structure. This happens because it is more beneficial at that point in time.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

The selfish behavior is beneficial during the initial stages of the process, we could draw lines with single-celled organisms, for example. Once the drift from glycolysis to oxidation happens, there is a surplus of energy that allows the evolution of a collaborative structure. This happens because it is more beneficial at that point in time.

You're just making this up.

 

[Such_Saturation]

You're just making this up.

Have you read any raypeat.com? This is very much in line with his thought. You might even say I lifted off of a few interviews of his. A proper society evolves along the lines of the biology that allows it to exist. A proper biological organism evolves along the lines of the physics that allow it to exist. However I'm glad to hear that when you'll develop a tumor, you will be quite ok with that and consider him a proper go-getter. Your organs will be too naive to compete at that point.

 

[michael94]

The selfish behavior is beneficial during the initial stages of the process, we could draw lines with single-celled organisms, for example. Once the drift from glycolysis to oxidation happens, there is a surplus of energy that allows the evolution of a collaborative structure. This happens because it is more beneficial at that point in time.

I agree, our 'civilization' is built on fermentation both figuratively and literally. Actually Ray does not even take the basic truth of the stress paradigm far enough. It's much deeper than anything he writes about.

Are you telling me that makeup, high heels, and tight clothes don't make women more sexually attractive ??

High heels etc. make women look like prostitutes imo. It's 'stimulating' but not feminine or beautiful.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Actually Ray does not even take the basic truth of the stress paradigm far enough. It's much deeper than anything he writes about.

He does, it's just there's all these doublethinkers who think discussing how to cook mushrooms will be the highest utility of this board. And so he ends up never being asked about these things.