Estrogen And Attraction

[PTP]

There is a common idea in mainstream science that men are attracted to more highly estrogenic women.

Hormone levels predict attractiveness of women

That article might be behind a paywall, but here's the relevant quotation:

"...photograph of each woman that had been taken at the time of her highest urine-oestrogen level...this correlated to the point of ovulation in the women’s menstrual cycles. These photographs were rated...for attractiveness, health and femininity.

The group also rated two composite face images. One composite was an amalgamation of the 10 women with the lowest peak-oestrogen levels, while the other image was a combination of the 10 women with the highest levels (see image)....“There was a very strong and direct correlation between the level of each woman’s oestrogen and how attractive, healthy and feminine they were found to be, showing that fertility is related to attractiveness,”"

Now, since estrogen is considered a stress hormone in Peat world, I'd be surprised if men found it attractive. So I have two possible Peat compatible theories: Maybe higher estrogen comes naturally with a higher progesterone level, and that is what men are finding attractive. Or maybe the women are excreting more estrogen in their urine (how it was measured in the study), and therefore have less in their bodies. I think I recall Peat writing that the idea of supposedly low estrogen levels in menopausal women was an issue with the hormone level analysis.

I wondered if anyone here has an explanation for this?

 

[Ableton]

Well, there is certainly a cultural aspect to it. White men are often times less attracted to estrogenic women than latino or black men for example. Media plays a role in this also.
It’s not just biological.
Also, men are attracted to a broader spectrum of women than vice versa.

 

[Peater]

r maybe the women are excreting more estrogen in their urine (how it was measured in the study)

I like this idea a lot. The side bar tells me everything I need to know about New Scientist's level of real science.

 

[Dobbler]

I know a person who takes estrogen. Very stressful to be around, negative outburst and mood swings, nervous energy. Never in a million years would i date someone who takes estrogen. You can smell and feel it. Sick stuff.

 

[PTP]

White men are often times less attracted to estrogenic women than latino or black men for example. Media plays a role in this also.

I don't know if this is true. Do you have any evidence that latino and black men are more attracted to high estrogen women? This study came from Britain and likely was based on input from a majority of white men (and white women). I agree that media and culture plays a role in directing sexual desire, but there's a limit to how much they can fight biology.

The side bar tells me everything I need to know about New Scientist's level of real science.

Well I did say it was a mainstream view. You can't expect mainstream publications to be at the Peat level for another 20 years (if ever).

I know a person who takes estrogen. Very stressful to be around, negative outburst and mood swings, nervous energy. Never in a million years would i date someone who takes estrogen. You can smell and feel it. Sick stuff.

Well a lot of women take estrogen as a form of birth control, and they're not always nightmares of nervous energy. It's probably because some have higher progesterone levels that can counter some of the damage.

 

[PTP]

This sentence from Peat's article makes me think my second theory swings closer to reality:

"The healthy liver inactivates practically all the estrogen that reaches it, mostly by combining it with the “sugar acid,” glucuronic acid. This makes the estrogen water soluble, and it is quickly eliminated in the urine."

- Tissue-bound estrogen in aging

 

[Ableton]

I don't know if this is true. Do you have any evidence that latino and black men are more attracted to high estrogen women? This study came from Britain and likely was based on input from a majority of white men (and white women). I agree that media and culture plays a role in directing sexual desire, but there's a limit to how much they can fight biology.

Well I did say it was a mainstream view. You can't expect mainstream publications to be at the Peat level for another 20 years (if ever).

Well a lot of women take estrogen as a form of birth control, and they're not always nightmares of nervous energy. It's probably because some have higher progesterone levels that can counter some of the damage.

women with curves = high E
Fat tissue produces E

i do not know about any studies.

but even white men where in different eras attracted to heavier women.

its mostly cultural.

things like sxmmetry, dimorphism in face is mostly biological

even black nba players with sky high smv more often than not go for high E queens, despite media fetishizing slim women. It’s part of black culture I would think

 

[opethfeldt]

I had an ex I gave progesterone to and she both acted and looked less attractive. I think that estrogen does make women more attractive but only in women who are healthy enough to balance out the stress promoting effects by producing lots of progesterone. The ones who don't are the unhealthy, usually overweight women.

 

[baccheion]

There is a common idea in mainstream science that men are attracted to more highly estrogenic women.

Hormone levels predict attractiveness of women

That article might be behind a paywall, but here's the relevant quotation:

"...photograph of each woman that had been taken at the time of her highest urine-oestrogen level...this correlated to the point of ovulation in the women’s menstrual cycles. These photographs were rated...for attractiveness, health and femininity.

The group also rated two composite face images. One composite was an amalgamation of the 10 women with the lowest peak-oestrogen levels, while the other image was a combination of the 10 women with the highest levels (see image)....“There was a very strong and direct correlation between the level of each woman’s oestrogen and how attractive, healthy and feminine they were found to be, showing that fertility is related to attractiveness,”"

Now, since estrogen is considered a stress hormone in Peat world, I'd be surprised if men found it attractive. So I have two possible Peat compatible theories: Maybe higher estrogen comes naturally with a higher progesterone level, and that is what men are finding attractive. Or maybe the women are excreting more estrogen in their urine (how it was measured in the study), and therefore have less in their bodies. I think I recall Peat writing that the idea of supposedly low estrogen levels in menopausal women was an issue with the hormone level analysis.

I wondered if anyone here has an explanation for this?

The study compared ones with the highest peak to ones with the lowest peak. Women don't always have higher estrogen. After ovulation, for example, progesterone goes up and becomes the main hormone.

The highest peak occurs just before and during ovulation (egg dropping), times of peak fertility. It makes sense the body would try to maximize appeal, as more attractive = better odds of mating and with a better mate.

 

[haidut]

estrogen is considered a stress hormone in Peat world

...when CHRONICALLY elevated. Nobody said estrogen does not have a physiological role. Same for cortisol, prolactin, etc. Sexual activity raises all of those in both men and women. That does not mean it is a bad thing...but if you do it too often (and "too often" depends on each person's individual health) it can certainly become a problem, especially if it is of the routine type. Namely, it is common now for PCP and gynos to encourage women to have more sex and "schedule" it regularly. I can think of few things that can kill the excitement and intimacy more effectively than putting "sex on Tuesday" on both partners' calendars. Peat also spoke of too frequent sexual activity as something that can become a problem and activate latent viruses, especially herpes and JCV. Both can be lethal in an immuno-compromised person, especially the latter, despite the fact that most of us carry both of these viruses our whole lives and very few people experience outbreaks of either.
Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy - Wikipedia

Finally, I would like to see an experiment where they also measured women's prolactin and/or estrone sulfate (E1S), which are biomarkers of systemic estrogenic load. High serum/urine estradiol is more likely to indicate lower tissue estrogen levels. The women I know who have chronically high levels of prolactin/E1S are far from attractive, and not just by my judgment.

 

[PTP]

...when CHRONICALLY elevated. Nobody said estrogen does not have a physiological role

Well I don't think I can recall Peat ever saying anything positive about estrogen, even if he's never said it was completely unnecessary, though I haven't read or listened to every word he's ever said. Regardless, I'd be surprised if elevated levels of something considered unhealthy would be attractive to men. I think we have a general consensus here that what they're describing as elevated estrogen levels are in fact signs of lower estrogen levels in the tissues.

The women I know who have chronically high levels of prolactin/E1S are far from attractive, and not just by my judgment.

That's consistent with what I'd expect from a Peat based understanding of physiology. Although, are these women actually giving you their hormone measurements or are you just estimating from their actions/appearances?

I had an ex I gave progesterone to and she both acted and looked less attractive.

That surprises me. Was it a sufficient dose to make her body think it was pregnant? Then maybe her body felt it had done it's job and didn't want to send off signals that would be attractive to men as it would be a waste of time.

 

[PTP]

even black nba players with sky high smv more often than not go for high E queens, despite media fetishizing slim women. It’s part of black culture I would think

Do they? I was under the impression that they all went for tiny blonde women, but I'll take your word for it as I don't follow the NBA or it's culture. Perhaps many of them come from poorer background and are more attracted to higher fat levels in women as it shows an ability to survive in leaner times, something they probably maintain an unconscious fear of if they grew up with food worries, regardless of their wealth. Or perhaps it is just part of American black culture. I'd still bet that with the kind of women they're attracted to, they'd find them even more attractive with lower estrogen levels in their tissues, all else being equal.

 

[opethfeldt]

That surprises me. Was it a sufficient dose to make her body think it was pregnant? Then maybe her body felt it had done it's job and didn't want to send off signals that would be attractive to men as it would be a waste of time.

Yes, it was a sufficient dose to stop her cycle. When I say less attractive, I mean sexually. She became a much better girlfriend, though. More faithful and devoted, sweeter. I think I'd rather date a girl with high progesterone but as far as sex appeal, estrogen is more appealing for me. Makes girls act horribly though. Less faithful, argumentative and just irrational. Just my observations.

 

[PTP]

Yes, it was a sufficient dose to stop her cycle. When I say less attractive, I mean sexually. She became a much better girlfriend, though. More faithful and devoted, sweeter. I think I'd rather date a girl with high progesterone but as far as sex appeal, estrogen is more appealing for me. Makes girls act horribly though. Less faithful, argumentative and just irrational. Just my observations.

Very interesting, reminds me of the notion that crazy girls are more fun in bed, but obviously make terrible girlfriends

 

[GreekDemiGod]

What about the idea that modern women are more attracted to feminized / androgynous men?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Very interesting, reminds me of the notion that crazy girls are more fun in bed, but obviously make terrible girlfriends

High progesterone women = girlfriend potential
High estrogen women = one night stand fun
??

 

[baccheion]

I had an ex I gave progesterone to and she both acted and looked less attractive. I think that estrogen does make women more attractive but only in women who are healthy enough to balance out the stress promoting effects by producing lots of progesterone. The ones who don't are the unhealthy, usually overweight women.

Can you provide more details? What was less attractive about her demeanor? How did it change? What about aesthetics? How did they differ? Was there a glow associated with progesterone? Rosy cheeks? I keep searching for before/after pictures of women on progesterone, but I can't find any.

Wouldn't progesterone and estradiol alternate as the !ain hormone, with a bit of high testosterone in the middle? When one is high, the other is lower.

 

[PxD]

What about the idea that modern women are more attracted to feminized / androgynous men?

Any research on this? Everything I've read indicates women are attracted to more masculine men, especially when they're ovulating.

 

[baccheion]

Any research on this? Everything I've read indicates women are attracted to more masculine men, especially when they're ovulating.

Their attraction follows the time of the month. They are attracted to stereotypical masculinity mainly/only during ovulation. After, they are seeking effeminate to take care of the child (lower testosterone and lower estrogen, preferably with lower cortisol; lines up with the higher progesterone of that period). Then there's estrogen mode (feminine faces).

With birth control, the whole thing is biased toward estrogen or progesterone.

Not all women experience the menstrual cycle as expected. Some have a longer/shorter luteal phase, elevated testosterone for too long, etc.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Any research on this? Everything I've read indicates women are attracted to more masculine men, especially when they're ovulating.

i don't have any of my hand. It is a theory in Lookism circles, that women between the ages of 16 - 22, let's say are primarily attracted by androgynous, "pretty-boy"man, and over the age of 22, they tend to favor more masculine traits in men (like a muscular physique, angular jawline...etc)