Extreme Fatigue From Niacinamide- Lipolysis Dependence?

[unexamined_whimsy]

Further data on sex hormones after T3 supplementation by same authors of previous study.
This study is here, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9439537

There was a 42% increase in serum levels of total testosterone (18.5 +/- 1.3 to 26.3 +/- 1.8 nmol/L, P = .005) and a 150% increase in SHBG (18.0 +/- 2.2 to 44.9 +/- 7.0 nmol/L, P = .008) following T3 treatment. Estradiol and free testosterone levels were unchanged by treatment, although free testosterone decreased from 142.8 +/- 18.4 to 137.3 +/- 19.5 pmol/L.

So it seems T3 is good for the libido too ! (and no need to worry about estrogen increases)

Free testosterone has a much higher correlation with libido than total testosterone levels. It's naive to look at just an increase in total testosterone per se, since the binding strengths for testosterone and estrogen with SHBG are quite different. The intuitive notion of T/E2 ratio breaks down when SHBG is high. Further, it's difficult to find studies that measure the actual tissue concentration of estrogen -- that can be very different to the serum levels. Most importantly, there is a 'well known' (not my words, mind you) association of gynecomastia and sexual dysfunction with hyperthyroidism. Afterall, many studies even show a clear increase in serum estradiol in hyperthyroidism.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

In my original quote, "Anything more than the slightest excess of exogenous T3 perceived by the body is quickly deactivated via the D3 deiodinase into reverse-T3. D3 also converts some of the T4 into T2." I had switched reverse-T3 for T2. To be clear, D3 converts T3 --> T2 and T4 --> reverse T3. The point remains that excess T3 can be deactivated.

Per, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16131330 :

Type 3 iodothyronine deiodinase (D3) is the physiologic inactivator of thyroid hormones, catalyzing the inner ring deiodination of thyroxine (T(4)) to reverse triiodothyronine (rT(3)) and (T(3)) to 3, 3'-diiodothyronine (T(2)), both of which are biologically inactive.

So, you were wrong and I don't have to read all those references you gave ?

Taken as a whole, studies on levothyroxine vs liothyronine are clearly quite equivocal. Those arguing staunchly in favor of T3, or adding T3, are cherry picking the research. I think individual requirements lie along a continuum between 100% T4 and 100% T3.

So are you saying those supplementing T3 are cherry picking research ? I beg to differ.
I am doing very well supplementing only with a bit of T3 and can feel the warmth going into my feet after a dose of T3. T4 does not do this for me. But that's just my experience and I'd like to see the research you claim that prove T3 on it's own is detrimental. So what if a bit of extra T3 gets converted into T2. Is T2 bad for you?

People's need for supplemental T4 and T3 lie along a continuum, not that T3 is necessarily detrimental, as you infer. If you look at the experience of users of cytomel online, you find that its catabolic properties are well known and the general view is to 'take cytomel only with androgens'. Personally too, I find T3 extremely catabolic and that it raises estrogen palpably per the many studies on this subject.

T2 is biologically inactive (though it induces weight loss in rats) vs. T3 and depending on the individual D3 activity can be stimulated either by the excess T3 or by the increased peripheral conversion of estrogens.

 

[Filip1993]

@unexamined_whimsy Do you think coffee can increase estrogen in the same way as thyroid?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

@unexamined_whimsy Do you think coffee can increase estrogen in the same way as thyroid?

I don't have references for this but my symptoms certainly suggest that.

 

[Filip1993]

Yeah, caffeine seems to make my water retention worse, gonna try decaf for a couple of days.

 

[Mittir]

Yeah, caffeine seems to make my water retention worse, gonna try decaf for a couple of days.

I asked RP about coffee raising Estrogen and here is his response.

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1035&start=90#p24334

 

[Filip1993]

Thanks for the link Mittir, I'm gonna try coffee with some cheese and lots of sugar to see if it makes a difference because I really do like the taste of coffee.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Yeah, caffeine seems to make my water retention worse, gonna try decaf for a couple of days.

I asked RP about coffee raising Estrogen and here is his response.

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1035&start=90#p24334

Thanks for posting that very detailed response from Dr. Peat.

A majority of the studies he posted were performed in women and all of them showed an increase in SHBG.

Among the postmenopausal women, there was a positive association between caffeine and coffee intake and SHBG levels (P-trend = .03 and .06, respectively).

High intakes of caffeinated coffee, green tea, and total caffeine were commonly correlated with increasing sex hormone-binding globulin on Days 11 and 22 of the cycle after controlling for potential confounders [Spearman correlation coefficients (r) ranged from 0.23 to 0.31]. Green tea but not caffeinated coffee intake was inversely correlated with estradiol on Day 11 of the cycle (r = -0.32, p = 0.04).

The last study had a miniscule sample size of 4 for the male group consuming caffeinated coffee and it reported:

At 4 weeks, decaffeinated coffee was associated with a borderline significant increase in SHBG in women, but not in men.

Nevertheless, at 8 weeks SHBG for the male caffeinated drinkers increased from a baseline of 21.4 nmol/L to 23.1 nml/L. Total estradiol went up from 24.0 to 25.2 pg/mL and free estradiol went up from 0.5pg/mL to 0.5. Testosterone/Estradiol ratio reduced from 16.2 to 16.1.

 

[Mittir]

Thanks for the link Mittir, I'm gonna try coffee with some cheese and lots of sugar to see if it makes a difference because I really do like the taste of coffee.

RP mentioned that he recommends taking coffee with meal to people who can not tolerate
coffee. He found that everyone was able tolerate coffee this way.
He thinks low metabolism is the underlying cause. I drink half to 1 oz of instant coffee daily,
Mostly with meal. I just add coffee to small amount of water to drink after meal.
I think coffee can irritate sensitive stomach and that can cause problem.
I have noticed bad reaction to certain brands of instant coffee.

 

[Filip1993]

@unexamined_whimsy So the studies actually shows an increase in estrogen after coffee consumption? We don't really now how they used coffee, with a meal or not. And if coffee increases metabolism and they didn't get enough calories/nutrients there is certainly an increase in estrogen, right?

@Mittir Do you just mix water with instant coffee? Do you heat the water or something?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

@unexamined_whimsy So the studies actually shows an increase in estrogen after coffee consumption? We don't really now how they used coffee, with a meal or not. And if coffee increases metabolism and they didn't get enough calories/nutrients there is certainly an increase in estrogen, right?

@Mittir Do you just mix water with instant coffee? Do you heat the water or something?

As I qualified above, studies about coffee and sex steroids in men are scant. However, I would be very surprised if coffee didn't tend to increase SHBG just like supplemental thyroid does. Having said that, I love coffee as much as the next man. I think there can be significant differences among individual thyroid and mineral statuses and their response to stimulants may vary accordingly. Just don't go about swilling something if you find it's doing you more harm than good.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Thanks for the link Mittir, I'm gonna try coffee with some cheese and lots of sugar to see if it makes a difference because I really do like the taste of coffee.

RP mentioned that he recommends taking coffee with meal to people who can not tolerate
coffee. He found that everyone was able tolerate coffee this way.
He thinks low metabolism is the underlying cause. I drink half to 1 oz of instant coffee daily,
Mostly with meal. I just add coffee to small amount of water to drink after meal.
I think coffee can irritate sensitive stomach and that can cause problem.
I have noticed bad reaction to certain brands of instant coffee.

Like scripture, his comment is open to interpretation. My view is that he speaketh, "Thou shalt accompany coffee with a source of calories to prevent the jitters."

 

[SAFarmer]

Like scripture, his comment is open to interpretation. My view is that he speaketh, "Thou shalt accompany coffee with a source of calories to prevent the jitters."

You know what ? I don't like your attitude towards Ray Peat. Your comment above is out of line as is this one viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2499&p=30333#p30333 It seems that you are out to discredit him in some way by making obscure statements that is in contradiction to what the man is trying to say. When you are challenged to give references to prove your point, you quickly try to do a Google search for some studies, which then actually disproves your ascertions, and then try to back out of it by saying you mistakenly put in T3 instead of T2 !

Please tell us what your background are, because I have trouble to believe that you actually understand biochemistry or endocrinology. I suspect you are some bodybuilder or similar, viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3268&p=38634#p38634, from where your testosterone and estrogen problems come from and your comments from what you read "in forums" about catabolic effects of T3 without taking also testosterone. You know how much those people take, do you ? T3 is NOT a catabolic hormone in it's overall effects, unless it's taken in extreme dosis where people also not have proper nutrition to go with it. Go read some proper Thyroid books like "the Tyroid" by Mcgavack and don't get your info from bodybuilding forums only.

You also make the statements about "free" levels being far more important, (as if you know), where it is clear that Dr. Ray Peat thinks total levels is the thing to look at, and that he does not believe in the "recepter" model where dogma thinks only "free" hormones can enter cells.

As I say, I may be completely wrong (and if you can convince me otherwise, I will apologize unconditionally) but since you are also from Germany, have powerlifting friends, loves coffee, and make all these statements about Dr peat and have differing views which you try to forward...

...you remind me very much of a very similar person that was banned from this forum not too long ago ...but hey, I can be wrong .

 

[aquaman]

I could swallow a whole thyroid pills at a time without any effect. I don't think I'm estrogen dominant however, but maybe serotonin overloaded.

INteresting - I have the same thing, like Thyroid doesn't have much impact on me. Hardly notice it.

Because of Estrogen?

 

[Drareg]

Anything more than the slightest excess of exogenous T3 perceived by the body is quickly deactivated via the D3 deiodinase into reverse-T3. D3 also converts some of the T4 into T2. In fact, too-much-too-soon T3 makes one functionally even more hypothyroid, contrary to what is usually assumed. I think the general drift of Ray's recommendation is to take a micro gram or two every few hours to prevent D3 from being stimulated too much. Considerations similar to T3 also apply for coffee. Nevertheless, I would again question the use of thyroid in the first place.

I don't think Ray is too enthusiastic about the Vitamin E subfraction: tocotrienols, however, they have been a most effective supplement against estrogen, at least for me. The tocotrienols dramatically raised my libido and made my gonads noticeably more ample. Tocopherols, whether Gamma E (whose viscosity is very questionable) or other more expensive formulations haven't done anything palpable so far.

Oysters would certainly be the best way of getting trace minerals but I have found supplementing zinc to be more effective in controlling estrogen. Maybe that's just because I cannot afford to eat fresh oysters everyday, and by supplementing one gets a consistent daily dose. Regarding the excipients try effervescent tablets for they generally don't contain silica.

You have an interesting insight here on deiodinase 3, it seems to be up regulated very easily, I'm thinking epigentically some are possibly more susceptible.
Have you any further thoughts?

I have been searching for inhibitors or the like, the only thing I currently found that mildly inhibits it is a dodgy steroid called dexamethasone.
Anecdotal --The bodybuilders are claiming to use T4 with growth hormone, GH supposedly inhibits deiodinase 3 rather than t3 , they always complained t3 needed juice with it, some reckoned it was because of t3 enhancing deiodinase 3.

 

[haidut]

You have an interesting insight here on deiodinase 3, it seems to be up regulated very easily, I'm thinking epigentically some are possibly more susceptible.
Have you any further thoughts?

I have been searching for inhibitors or the like, the only thing I currently found that mildly inhibits it is a dodgy steroid called dexamethasone.
Anecdotal --The bodybuilders are claiming to use T4 with growth hormone, GH supposedly inhibits deiodinase 3 rather than t3 , they always complained t3 needed juice with it, some reckoned it was because of t3 enhancing deiodinase 3.

I thought T3 gets deactivated into T2 and not rT3?? I am not sure T3 can convert directly into rT3, it is excess T4 that does that.

 

[Drareg]

I thought T3 gets deactivated into T2 and not rT3?? I am not sure T3 can convert directly into rT3, it is excess T4 that does that.

That's what I thought but after reading more about deiodinase 3 Im lost on it.
I posted some other bits of info I gathered on deiodinase 3 elsewhere, there isn't much on it at the moment.
It's worth watching the research I think.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

I thought T3 gets deactivated into T2 and not rT3?? I am not sure T3 can convert directly into rT3, it is excess T4 that does that.

Yeah, I meant T3 --> T2. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Parsifal]

So is T3 oestrogenic?
What about the SHBG thing?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I'm not sure that free T is really the only T that is meaningful. I think SHBG T is just as important. As men age, more T is SHBG T, but their T isn't declining, only changing form. I'm not sure this is a bad thing at all.