Hashimoto's (Autoimmune Diseases) And Peat Protocol

[j.]

Penetrating red light is possibly the fundamental anti-stress factor for all organisms.

It would be interesting to know if there is a certain intensity, in Watts, where the red light if incandescent bulbs starts to be "penetrating".

 

[Isadora]

narouz, so one year of Peat dieting and supplementation brought nothing new on the Hashimoto front? Antibodies remained at the same levels -- or even increased?

As I said, I ordered CynoPlus and Cytomel, they have yet to arrive.

I think being a "Peatarian" involves a very open mind and a willingness to experiment with things that make sense, even if only on an intuitive level. I think we would have had none of Peat's recommendations hadn't he experimented himself with different things. He also keeps an eye on those who do and how they do it and studies all kinds of cases and uses them as examples or to further his comprehension of things. I thought this was what this forum was about.

For conditions such as ours, really, there isn't even much to talk about -- there are a few who claim they have a handle on things, the famous (and controversial) "Dr. K", and some other experimental options. I am happy when I hear of new molecules and I am interested in how they might interplay with the others. Peat stays curious and so should we. Also, since he has none of these conditions, I don't think there is any reason for him to experiment on himself and tell us how it all went -- it's the other way around, we should be reporting here on everything we do, especially if and when we encounter successes. That's how science moves ahead.

I hope that my gut isn't still leaky -- when I tested for gluten sensitivity, the Anti-Gliadin IgA was at 4.5 (should be below 12), so maybe it has healed, after all? IgA, IgG, IgM were within limits and there were no Anti Transglutaminase antibodies, so they ruled out Coeliac disease at the University hospital here. The level of protein in my blood was kinda elevated and the biggest protein of all, CA-125, huge guy (22000 amino acids), was above normal -- which prompted doctors to look for two types of cancer, finding none (after a bunch of Rx's and sonograms and an MRI) I never believed in their cancer theories, I was like, dudes, did you see my badass immune system? How could it let a whole cancer develop, when it's eating my thyroid? :) I'm kidding now, but it's true, somehow I never felt concerned. Maybe I was wrong and they were right to check.

Or maybe, just maybe, the poor Anti-dsDNA that got me so worried had just cleaned up the remains of some tumor and now they were unemployed and ready to withdraw from the scene... :)

In the Red Light district, I am happy to report that I am only using incandescent bulbs in my house -- tons of them. My face is lit by four of them as I write this. I turn them on even on overcast days. :)

 

[j.]

My face is lit by four of them as I write this.

Out of curiosity, to how many watts do they add?

 

[Isadora]

320W... If you mean the four bulbs in the office area.

 

[j.]

320W... If you mean the four bulbs in the office area.

I see. I'm using 200W (though it's next to my face right now), and I am still increasing my time exposure, as I'm not yet comfortable if I expose myself to it all the time. I do plan to get to 750W as Peat advises.

 

[Isadora]

I didn't know he advised that much, thanks for the tip! I'll round up some extra lamps, see how that feels...

 

[narouz]

narouz, so one year of Peat dieting and supplementation brought nothing new on the Hashimoto front? Antibodies remained at the same levels -- or even increased?

As I said, I ordered CynoPlus and Cytomel, they have yet to arrive.

I think being a "Peatarian" involves a very open mind and a willingness to experiment with things that make sense, even if only on an intuitive level. I think we would have had none of Peat's recommendations hadn't he experimented himself with different things. He also keeps an eye on those who do and how they do it and studies all kinds of cases and uses them as examples or to further his comprehension of things. I thought this was what this forum was about.

For conditions such as ours, really, there isn't even much to talk about -- there are a few who claim they have a handle on things, the famous (and controversial) "Dr. K", and some other experimental options. I am happy when I hear of new molecules and I am interested in how they might interplay with the others. Peat stays curious and so should we. Also, since he has none of these conditions, I don't think there is any reason for him to experiment on himself and tell us how it all went -- it's the other way around, we should be reporting here on everything we do, especially if and when we encounter successes. That's how science moves ahead.

I hope that my gut isn't still leaky -- when I tested for gluten sensitivity, the Anti-Gliadin IgA was at 4.5 (should be below 12), so maybe it has healed, after all? IgA, IgG, IgM were within limits and there were no Anti Transglutaminase antibodies, so they ruled out Coeliac disease at the University hospital here. The level of protein in my blood was kinda elevated and the biggest protein of all, CA-125, huge guy (22000 amino acids), was above normal -- which prompted doctors to look for two types of cancer, finding none (after a bunch of Rx's and sonograms and an MRI) I never believed in their cancer theories, I was like, dudes, did you see my badass immune system? How could it let a whole cancer develop, when it's eating my thyroid? :) I'm kidding now, but it's true, somehow I never felt concerned. Maybe I was wrong and they were right to check.

Or maybe, just maybe, the poor Anti-dsDNA that got me so worried had just cleaned up the remains of some tumor and now they were unemployed and ready to withdraw from the scene... :)

In the Red Light district, I am happy to report that I am only using incandescent bulbs in my house -- tons of them. My face is lit by four of them as I write this. I turn them on even on overcast days. :)

Yes, yes...I agree about experimentation.
As I said, I didn't want to come off as a censor.
My point was that I would get a thorough understanding of Peat
employ his ideas over time
and see how it goes.
Rather than emphasizing isolated pharmaceuticals or pill supplements.
With the glutamine, if you look into it,
you will find that Peat wouldn't recommend it.
With the Antabloc or whatever--I'm not against it,
I'm just saying that there are a whole lot of much more basic Peat foods
to which I would direct my hopes and energies
before pharmaceuticals which Peat hasn't signed off on.

 

[narouz]

narouz, so one year of Peat dieting and supplementation brought nothing new on the Hashimoto front? Antibodies remained at the same levels -- or even increased?

Isadora--
I've had three different doctors look into my thyroid.
They didn't always measure antibodies every time.
I haven't attached a lot of significance to them.
In fact, I don't attach a lot of significance to thyroid labs in general.
This is because Peat doesn't--he has commented frequently
on how flukey and mis-applied and misunderstood and just plain useless
most thyroid lab tests are.
I'm not sayin' they're nuthin'.
Just that I de-emphasize them

I could go back and look at my labs and check the TPO.
But it hasn't been at all my focus.
Peat places much more emphasis on the "old thyroid science"
practiced by the likes of Broda Barnes,
who looked at symptoms and metabolic measurements.
Peat makes a compelling case for that methodology, to me.

And--I want to be honest about this--
no, I have not experienced any dramatic improvement in my hypothyroidism
over this last 10 months or so of Peating.
I think this testifies to how impressed I am by him as a scientist and nutritionist.
So...I'm sticking with it.

I have had some improvements in my general health.
I feel less anxious.
I feel less needy for what used to be my nightly big Heinekin or two
and toke of pot.
So, quite easily I now only drink/smoke about once a week.
My memory seems somewhat improved.
But I still have a lot of hypothyroid symptoms:
general inertia, some fatigue, some depressive feelings, lack of libido, joint aches, etc.

As I say, I've just recently found out about the world of thyroid resistance.
Some people become or are resistant to T4.
We have some here on our board.
If they take T4 they feel worse.
Their reverse T3 will often be high.
The thinking is that excess of T4 leads to reverse T3
which blocks the good T3's receptors.
This must be "cleared" by a couple/several months of straight T3.
And then there are those who still need, beyond that "clearange" by straight T3,
to employ a circadian dosing schedule--see Paul Robinson's "Recovering with T3."

All that is to say: I think I've never resolved my fundamental thyroid issue.
Without doing that, I don't think even all this Peating is able to help me beyond a certain limit.
Peat does concur with the possibility that excess T4 can be anti-metabolic for some.
But that's about as far as he goes along that line, that I've seen.
And his experiment with straight T3 didn't go very well.
I also have very high iron levels which some think may cause thyroid resistance.

 

[Isadora]

Have you played around within the limits of the Peat diet or have you been constant in your food intake? Have you kept a diary and compared your symptoms?

I also have stopped needing alcohol at night -- while on Paleo, that had become a need, I think my body was simply starved for readily available energy... And I was also craving sweets and chocolate -- not anymore now, sometimes I force myself to eat my evening ice-cream and find reasons not to bother! :) A Peat lifestyle is strange indeed...

Maybe we should follow Dean's suggestion and find a way to keep a food diary and compare what we do and learn from each other? This would especially benefit newcomers like me and, I'm sure, many others...

But we should find a fun way to do it, turn it into a game of sorts. Competitional Peating...:)

Have you played around with other hormones? I know Progest-e is not for guys, but pregnenolone, etc.? For me, the days on lots of Peat food and Progest-e were CRAZY, I was bouncing off the walls with energy -- but at the price of one pound a day gained... I had to put an end to all that partying, it was clearly not sustainable.

 

[charlie]

One other idea that strikes me as valid and useful (and frankly I can't remember if I read this from Peat, Dr. Derry, Dr K. or someone on STTM) is that in Hashimotos you can supress the gland completely, as measured by a TSH around 0.1, with enough thyroid hormone and that will lower antibodies, but that if you are taking any of the natural dessicated thyroid extracts your body may still be producing antibodies to the porcine-derived thyroid tissue in the pill. In this case, synthetics like cynomel are probably especially helpful.

Of course if something like LDN corrects the immune response, worrying about this shouldn't even be necessary...

Robert, welcome to the forum.

 

[narouz]

Have you played around within the limits of the Peat diet or have you been constant in your food intake? Have you kept a diary and compared your symptoms?

I also have stopped needing alcohol at night -- while on Paleo, that had become a need, I think my body was simply starved for readily available energy... And I was also craving sweets and chocolate -- not anymore now, sometimes I force myself to eat my evening ice-cream and find reasons not to bother! :) A Peat lifestyle is strange indeed...

Maybe we should follow Dean's suggestion and find a way to keep a food diary and compare what we do and learn from each other? This would especially benefit newcomers like me and, I'm sure, many others...

But we should find a fun way to do it, turn it into a game of sorts. Competitional Peating...:)

Have you played around with other hormones? I know Progest-e is not for guys, but pregnenolone, etc.? For me, the days on lots of Peat food and Progest-e were CRAZY, I was bouncing off the walls with energy -- but at the price of one pound a day gained... I had to put an end to all that partying, it was clearly not sustainable.

I've been pretty strict about my Peat diet
once I got a good grasp of just what that is.
I've kept pretty close records of my temps and pulses,
and I try to be aware of the relationship between how I feel, sleep, etc.

I too gained weight.
It took off right away but then stabilized at about 15 to 20lbs over what it had been (on LowCarb).
So...this is another thing that testifies to my respect for Peat.
I've always put a lot of stock in my body--
if it looked muscular and not fat.
So this fat bothers me.
It's not the weight gain--it is the bulging flab in the wrong areas.

But you have to keep in mind I'm pushing 60 years old,
have eaten a ton of PUFA (while Low Carbing, thinking it was healthy! )
and have exercised intensely and regularly in exactly the way Peat thinks is anti-metabolic
and injurious to the thyroid.
Stored PUFA is something that might explain my lack of dramatic improvement:
Peat does say it takes years for it to exit,
and while it is present it can cause problems.

 

[Isadora]

I am totally opposed to letting myself gain weight. Weight is fat, fat is estrogenic, it will further attack my thyroid, it's hard to get rid of, makes one feel old, no way, I won't accept that. I will raise my metabolism without the fat gain, even if it takes longer. I listened to the recent radio interview you posted the link to -- it's not like Peat recommends the weight gain as part of some program. He said it himself -- if you need 700 calories/day, going over that will make you put on weight, and that won't be muscle, let's be serious. Everyone knows how hard it is to build muscle. And, for a woman, especially if she follows Peat's advice with progesterone supplementation -- as per testimonials here, on this forum, Peatarian's mostly, one may lose even more muscle because of that, so? I don't want to turn into a walking pile of bone and fat, how will that make me feel good? Easy does it... It takes years anyway to get rid of stored PUFAs, and Peat said that the fat one puts on tends to be PUFA-rich as one advances in age. This means that even being on a PUFA-free diet, one filtrates basically all the PUFAs that still enter one's system and adds them to one's already stored PUFAs, for a rainy metabolic day.

I think my body is still in shock from being fed so much sugar and milk and can't believe its luck! I'll go on, trying to convince it that this trend is not going away. Yes, we're in for the good life, Mr. Body, it's gonna be like that, trust me and use that energy, make some heat, I will never lead you down the crazy Paleo path again, you were right to react and prepare for some cave-hidden hibernation... No, we have not travelled back in time. We are still in the 21st century, oranges grow on trees year round, they're easily available, cows roam on pastures, tons of them, all we've gotta do is cook and process some of that and enjoy life. :)

 

[charlie]

Peat has said that you can put on quite a bit of muscle when getting the right food. Also, if you came off low carb, I think it's safe to expect to gain around 10 pounds of glycogen weight.

 

[narouz]

I am totally opposed to letting myself gain weight. Weight is fat, fat is estrogenic, it will further attack my thyroid, it's hard to get rid of, makes one feel old, no way, I won't accept that. I will raise my metabolism without the fat gain, even if it takes longer.

Well, that had kinduv been my mindset and I guess it still is somewhat, Isadora. And yet...I gained weight on Peat's diet. Why? Maybe I was not as expert as I needed to be at counting calories and restricting. But I've never counted calories and I've seldom had a problem being fat. I tried cutting way down on the good Peat fats--cut my butter intake, even coconut oil, switched to lowfat cheeses. Got rid of the half-and-half I added to my coffee. I was drinking non-fat milk already. I cut out almost all starches. Didn't make much difference. I went up from about 175lbs to about 195lbs and leveled out there. And it is not just muscle weight I've gained--my belly's front and side are blobby. Even places like my pectorals seem to be padded with fat layers. And--I include this because it may be significant--below my belly in that area I guess you'd call it the groin--I notice that area has a lot of fat. I say it may be significant because I just read somewhere that fat collection in that area--the source called it by its Latin?/medical name: mons pubus or something like that--is very diagnostic of hypothyroidism.

I really wrestled with this. Look around the forum at some old threads and you'll see one I started called
"Peat and Weight Gain" or something like that.

But, as I wrestled, I also shifted some in my long-held views about body image and such. I considered that Low Carb/Paleo had indeed been successful at keeping me lean. Before it wrecked my metabolism. I came to think that my goal was health, not slimness. And Peat says there is nothing about his diet that dooms one to being fat. In fact he says the opposite. People who try Peat seem to have mixed experiences. Some stay slim. Some gain weight at first then lose it, presumably after their metabolism kicks in. And I do, personally, suspect that a lot of people try what they think is a Peat diet, get fat, and quit.

Part my weight problem was probably caused by the other giant shift I encountered with Peat: exercise seemed to be bad in his view. And I had always been a big exerciser--having evolved into forms of exercise that are actually the very worst in Peat's view: jogging for 20-40 minutes, or intense burst training to absolute exhaustion and muscle failure. Now I'm starting to get a handle on how to exercise in a healthy Peatian way, but I have become nearly completely sedentary over this past 10 months.

My take is that I'm pretty old, I've stored a lot of PUFA during my misbegotten low-carb days, I've done damage with all the breathless, exhausting exercise, etc. It will take some time. Also, as I've said elsewhere, I suspect I may have a somewhat rare condition: thyroid resistance. I take thyroid supplement, even up to the high levels where my lab work shows high RT3--and where my doctor refuses to prescribe more for me. That kind of situation is considered "thyroid resistance" by some--(the now deceased) Dr. John Lowe, a Yahoo group called RT3, and maybe also Paul Robinson who wrote "Recovering with T3." I seems he believes in the concept of thyroid resistance in addition to his ideas about circadian dosing. So anyhow: I think I may be an anamoly in my Peat experience with weight gain. I think I've not yet solved the central part of the Peatian puzzle: get my metabolism cranked up; get my thyroid working healthily.

I guess what I'm trying to respond to in your post is your view about the unacceptability of weight gain. I felt that way. It led me into low carb, Paleo hibernation. I came to the view that, regrettably, for me, weight gain was acceptable--at least in the short term. I used to think of being healthy as being slim and muscular. I still hope that can be true. But I found that, for me, there's a danger in identifying slimness single-mindedly with health.

I listened to the recent radio interview you posted the link to -- it's not like Peat recommends the weight gain as part of some program. He said it himself -- if you need 700 calories/day, going over that will make you put on weight, and that won't be muscle, let's be serious. Everyone knows how hard it is to build muscle.

I don't think he said that. When he was talking about 700 calories/day, Peat was talking about what very old, unhealthy women were found to be consuming in their hospital rooms. His point was that they were maintaining their weight fine at that level--because their metabolisms were in hibernation mode. But Peat doesn't think most healthy people need only that amount of calories per day in order to stay slim.

"...Peat said that the fat one puts on tends to be PUFA-rich as one advances in age. This means that even being on a PUFA-free diet, one filtrates basically all the PUFAs that still enter one's system and adds them to one's already stored PUFAs, for a rainy metabolic day."

And this too: I'm not sure that is exactly what Peat was saying. It was a complicated part of the interview and I was trying to listen as I was working, so...you may be right. I will have to re-listen. But my impression about what Peat said there on the PUFAs...I didn't come away with as doomsy a view as you interpret.

 

[kiran]

narouz, how do you dose the thyroid?

 

[narouz]

narouz, how do you dose the thyroid?

kiran, it's complicated, but for the short answer scroll down to where I've bolded.

Well, as I say, I've recently discovered this theory of "thyroid resistance,"
and so about 2 or 3 weeks ago I changed from taking CynoPlus (synthetic T4+T3)
to straight T3 (Cynomel).
(And before the CynoPlus I was on NDT and before that straight T4)

Okay, so I've been doing the straight T3 for a couple/three weeks.
I've been following the protocol used over on the Yahoo group RT3 site.
They believe some people get overloaded with T4,
causing Reverse T3 to be made in too high a quantity,
which in turn leads to the "clogging" or blocking of the T3 "receptors."
(I use quotes there because Peat doesn't seem to think such receptors exist,
at least not as envisioned by most.)
Under their protocol one stops all T4 or T4/T3 supps
and begins supplementing with T3 only--in the amount of T3 one was getting in one's combo med,
or, if no T3 was being taken, start with a very small amount of T3.

So I started with about 30mcg of T3, split throughout the day.

The protocol says to increase that dose a little every 4 days or so
as temps and pulses and other metabolic indicators allow.
This is because the excess T4 will be dwindling--which is what is desired.

Now I'm up to about 60 mcg of T3 per day.

About a week ago I discovered the rather allied (it would seem) ideas of Paul Robinson.
The Yahoo RT3 group mentions him and seems to feel his views are harmonious with theirs.
Robinson, as best I can understand without yet having read his book,
was thyroid resistant AND he figured this Circadian Method of dosing his T3 which, effectively, cured him.
Over study and experimentation he found that both the adrenals and the thyroid
follow circadian rhythms.
He found that by taking a dose of T3 a couple of hours (it's more complicated than that, but let's say)
before he awoke (yes, he sets alarm, takes T3, then goes back to sleep)
he gave his adrenals some thyroid hormone just at the time when the adrenals most need it:
in that window of hours before we rise.

So anyhow: I started blending the RT3 thyroid resistance dosing notions with the Robinson circadian dosing.
Now I am taking about 60mcg of T3 per day.
I split that dose and spread throughout the day.
I set the alarm and take a dose about 2 hours before I get up.
And I take a dose before I go to sleep.

The pattern they see at the Yahoo RT3 group is:
after dosing like that--and gradually increasing the dose as necessary--
at approximately the 12 week point give or take
the receptors "clear" and you have to be prepared to drastically reduce dosage
because those cleared receptors now can efficiently use the T3

 

[Birdie]

I did a similar thing to narouz last year and now I have Mr Birdie doing it. Ours has been without the early morning wake up, but I may get him to try adding that in. I think that might be the thing to give his treatment a boost.

I found I could not take the T3 after about 3 pm without wakefulness, but not everyone reacts that way. Good to keep in mind though that some people are affected thus.

Thanks, for reminder to try early am dose with DH, narouz. Appreciate it.

 

[charlie]

It looks like I cannot handle thyroid after a certain time otherwise it disturbs my sleep.

 

[Isadora]

@Charlie: then maybe what happened was that I gained 4 lbs of glycogen, then got rid of 4 lbs of PUFAs and replaced them presto with 4 lbs of muscle. (I should be so lucky!) :P

More likely, I gained some fat and lost some muscle. At least, that's what my scale at home suggests. No biggie, I trust I can gain muscle on this diet, but I need to really work on it, and unfortunately the kettlebells were not my brightest idea, because they hurt my fingers.

@narouz: aww, that's not very peatarian, apparently this thread is doomed, , but tons of thanks for sharing, much appreciated! I will surely need that -- I just hope I will manage to get my hands on some thyroid... You guys made me soooo curious! Also, the nice lady at the lab, last December, as she took 10 vials of blood, was telling me how she practically "got her life back" when she was started on Levothyroxine... She was aiming for a TSH of 1, but she was overjoyed at its effects. She told me that one of the doctors there, just by looking at her neck, sent her to have her thyroid checked, and that she had no idea how ill she actually was. She is a beautiful woman, very skinny, model looks, too, her neck looked perfect, so I can't even begin to imagine what kind of a doctor caught that!

 

[kiran]

It's possibly because you just recently started on it. I sleep better if I take some thyroid before going to bed.