Implementing Low-fat Diet And Needing Advice

[DanielleB]

You should speak for yourself not Ray.
If someone presented to him with proper pulse/temps/mood/labs/etc and that was attained through low fat he would in fact advocate for it
saying he's said from 20-50 and less for weight loss is an ENORMOUS range. And that's the point. If there's health, function and well being you can bet your bippy he'd advocate for it. Again.... its about conducting the experiment and making adjustments along the way. Not drawing a conclusion before hand making a narrative and keeping to the narrative.

Well said....I also highly appreciated the use of "you can bet your bippy"...haven't heard that one in a while

 

[MissRed]

...So far, I've noticed no more bloating, energy is fantastic, I feel less hair-trigger emotional...like I can deal with stresses better than before AND the best part is my clothes are fitting looser and I'm looking smaller in the mirror! It's only been a week though so I'm kind of trying to contain my excitement by thinking that I may have hit the sweet spot for weight loss (yet...at least). I believe I will be starting a weekly VLF log here in the forums...I can let you know when I post it...probably not until it's been a full week which would be Sunday. Stay tuned! lol

YAAY! I am so happy you are feeling energetic and more even-keeled. PLz let me know if you start the forum!
BTW am jealous you have a source for raw milk. I may need to go start knocking on some farmers' doors.

 

[Jon]

I appreciate the responses and sources to look through :) At this point, it's just going to be trial and error through logging everything and noting what works for me and doesn't.

Without a doubt the greatest asset to you is a journal that tracks EVERYTHING you do and feel. That one thing made the difference for me in every aspect of my health. Plus when you figure things out for yourself and actually fix problems that kind of info is invaluable to people suffering like you did :) good luck!

 

[walker_in_aus]

Awesome, thanks! How much weight did you lose?

In three weeks I lost about 3kgs. But I also lost about 4cm from waist and bust, 6cm from hips and 1 from arms. Which I thought was pretty amazing for how I felt and how much I ate.

 

[Braveheart]

Without a doubt the greatest asset to you is a journal that tracks EVERYTHING you do and feel. That one thing made the difference for me in every aspect of my health. Plus when you figure things out for yourself and actually fix problems that kind of info is invaluable to people suffering like you did :) good luck!

If you are not tracking your food/nutrition you are just blowin' in the wind...

 

[Jon]

If you are not tracking your food/nutrition you are just blowin' in the wind...

I think it even goes beyond that. Sleep patterns, heart rate, temps, moods, libido, cravings, times of day you feel certain things, weight, bodyfat percentage, 4 month bloodwork ups, basically as many objective things you can track in relation to your health that are daily occurrences and will show trends.

 

[danishispsychic]

So I did some research on the progesterone and it seems like it's a bit of gamble with what results I might get. Some users report negative side effects/symptoms after taking it.....namely, gaining weight. Did you have any negative side effects from usage?

The only was to tell is to either have a hormone panel and see where your numbers are or just try it and see how you feel.

 

[General Orange]

I'd expect large quantities to somewhat inhibit release of stored fat. But small quantities of niacinamide (eg 20-50mg per meal) might be useful. Certainly some of us have lost fat while eating B-vits including niacinamide.

When you suggest that a moderate dosage of isolated Niacinamide to be useful in weight loss, this implies a more advanced method and then it would be nice to have some references to that effect and its consequences? Also for Aspirin. I'm not certain how this works myself. Is it that they protect against liberation of PUFA but still continue main fat burning activity in rest accordingly with the Randle cycle? "The Randle cycle, also known as the glucose fatty-acid cycle, a metabolic process involving the competition of glucose and fatty acids for substrates."
But wouldn't that mean the timing of certain food and suppl. becomes more important also? Or is it enough to just keep blood sugar stable all day long or with pauses?
Then what would also be good additional advise is to use sodium bicarbonate in the OJ to increase CO2 intake to compensate for its loss when in fat burning phases. :)

 

[tara]

When you suggest that a moderate dosage of isolated Niacinamide to be useful in weight loss, this implies a more advanced method and then it would be nice to have some references to that effect and its consequences?

I'm afraid I just have a vague memory of discussion in previous threads of this point, and Peat's view being along the lines that small amounts of niacinamide would not hinder lipolysis significantly, but would support metabolism. There might be a quote in the email depository, but not sure.
And then there's my and others' personal experiences. I aimed at ~ 50mg niacinamide twice daily for quite a while. Some of that time I was gaining fat and weight, some of it I was losing. I wasn't aiming to control my weight/fat, and it wasn't enough to be a determining factor for me.

 

[cyclops]

Would it be true to say that when eating a very low fat diet in an effort to burn body fat, it's almost as if your body is "eating" a higher fat diet because your body is using fat (body fat) for fuel?

So you do not need to worry about eating dietary fat because you are getting plenty of fat from your own fat stores?

 

[Jon]

@cyclops fatloss will only happen in a calorie deficit. Once in ketosis you'll be burning as much fat as your deficit is short of sufficient calories. If you're eating a lowfat diet while this is happening then yes your body will use this fat for hormonal processes and such but it won't be doing so at 100% because the body "sees" you are slowly starving and starts to try to conserve energy by decreasing faculties like sex hormone production and NEAT. This kind of thing happens reguardless of fat intake during a deficit but from one extreme (vlf) to another (Vlc) the effects are slightly different but equally bad. A 15% lower from TDEE calorie deficit doesn't effect testosterone output as badly as a higher one but is large enough to see consistent weighloss that's obvious. I think a safe place for fat intake all year round no matter what your bodycomposition goals are is 0.3grams per pound of lean bodymass.

 

[cyclops]

@cyclops fatloss will only happen in a calorie deficit. Once in ketosis you'll be burning as much fat as your deficit is short of sufficient calories. If you're eating a lowfat diet while this is happening then yes your body will use this fat for hormonal processes and such but it won't be doing so at 100% because the body "sees" you are slowly starving and starts to try to conserve energy by decreasing faculties like sex hormone production and NEAT. This kind of thing happens reguardless of fat intake during a deficit but from one extreme (vlf) to another (Vlc) the effects are slightly different but equally bad. A 15% lower from TDEE calorie deficit doesn't effect testosterone output as badly as a higher one but is large enough to see consistent weighloss that's obvious. I think a safe place for fat intake all year round no matter what your bodycomposition goals are is 0.3grams per pound of lean bodymass.

Interesting. I had a theory that if you eat zero fat (or as close to it as possible) and as much sugar and good protein as you crave, your body would tap into your own bodyfat stores because your body needs to burn fat for some things (I heard muscles at rest for instance burn fat). People have said we are always burning fat 24/7 to some degree. But you make it sound like you need to be in ketosis to burn fat?

 

[Jon]

@cyclops I'm sorry! I didn't mean to suggest you only burn fat in ketosis but you will only LOSE bodyfat in ketosis.

the energy deficit is the most important part for fatloss. Don't get me wrong, I have Ray Peat and the members of this forum to thank for my newfound health, but I think things get alittle skewed in favor of an extreme approach on the forum. I think trying to keep a good balance of macros during any type of bodycomposition goals (maintenance, weight gain, weight loss) is the best approach for overall health. I discussed earlier in this thread that I think in general men do better with a lowfat (0.3grams fat per lb of lean mass) high carb diet and that women do well with a moderate carb moderate fat (0.8-1grams fat per lb of lean mass) diet and that both need about 0.8g of protein per lb of lean mass from around minimum 80% animal sources. I think this more balanced approach is less stressful on the body and mind and prevents orthorexia (which a person is more prone to anyway during fatloss, since anxiety and stress is heightened due to a calorie deficit).

 

[cyclops]

@cyclops I'm sorry! I didn't mean to suggest you only burn fat in ketosis but you will only LOSE bodyfat in ketosis.

the energy deficit is the most important part for fatloss. Don't get me wrong, I have Ray Peat and the members of this forum to thank for my newfound health, but I think things get alittle skewed in favor of an extreme approach on the forum. I think trying to keep a good balance of macros during any type of bodycomposition goals (maintenance, weight gain, weight loss) is the best approach for overall health. I discussed earlier in this thread that I think in general men do better with a lowfat (0.3grams fat per lb of lean mass) high carb diet and that women do well with a moderate carb moderate fat (0.8-1grams fat per lb of lean mass) diet and that both need about 0.8g of protein per lb of lean mass from around minimum 80% animal sources. I think this more balanced approach is less stressful on the body and mind and prevents orthorexia (which a person is more prone to anyway during fatloss, since anxiety and stress is heightened due to a calorie deficit).

Cool, but I'm thinking maybe a person could burn fat even at maintenance calories if eating zero fat. The metabolism will be high because of all of the carbs and since the body needs to burn some fat it will have to pull it from bodyfat stores. What you think about that?

There would probably be times of the day when your burning more fat then other times too. Meal timing would play a part. You probably burn less fat right after eating for instance.

 

[Jon]

@cyclops I think that could be a possibility but I still think at the end of the day the mechanism causing you to lose weight is an energy deficit shifting your main calorie source to ketones. Reason being is that say your hormonal profile was improved by the lowfat/highcarb intake, that would signify an increase in basal metabolic rate; this increase in metabolism means an increase in the requirement for maintenance calories. So at the end of the day you're eating under maintenance calories, due to the improvement of hormonal profiles, eliciting ketosis, causing fat loss. If you are eating enough calories from carbs and protein to sustain weight, you will no longer be losing bodyfat.

During and after eating there is always a decrease in fatloss as insulin stops catabolic activity. Usually the post-prandial window for this stoppage in catabolism lasts for around 4hours (depending on the caloric density and macro make up of a meal) hence the recommendation for eating every 3 1/2 hours minimum to prevent stressful metabolic mechanism action (ketosis) when trying to rectify metabolic insufficiencies (i.e. Poor glucose utilization)

 

[cyclops]

@cyclops I'm sorry! I didn't mean to suggest you only burn fat in ketosis but you will only LOSE bodyfat in ketosis.

I missed this before. Is this an undisputed fact? I ask because I thought I read on here that there are at least a couple ways to burn bodyfat...I think someone was saying the liver could take care of it.

Also, is it not true that "the body is always burning bodyfat even at rest?" I heard that resting muscles are always using fat as energy. If your eating at maintenance (so not turning carbs into body fat) and your not eating any dietary fat I would have thought you have to be burning through some bodyfat at all times. No?

 

[Jon]

I suppose no, it is not undisputed fact. You can lose lean body mass (blood, bone, visceral organ tissue) by not eating enough protein even at maintenance calories so I would think there's a possibility to body recompose your body by such means. I guess the part I have trouble with is the mechanism by which bodyfat would be mobilized for energy utilization if not by a catabolic energy system (one that utilizes cortisol and adrenaline).

You're correct, muscles burn fat at rest. I believe this is aerobic metabolism. Anaerobic metabolism requires glucose for fuel.

I suppose I need to be careful to not speak in absolutes when I myself am not 100% certain of an outcome, I apologize. If anyone can share their experience of losing bodyfat while keeping lean mass in maintenance calories on a very low fat diet I'd like to hear it. I'd wonder how stressful it felt, if not much then I guess there's an unidentified mechanism helping the body to utilize fat stores that doesn't operate on stress. In all my experimentation on myself I never once was able to stick to an extremely lowfat diet even at maintenance it caused me too much stress (things I felt when on a large calorie deficit) and I experienced edema indicating cortisol rise and poor sleep and anxiety indicating adrenaline rise.

My 2 cents but again I could definitely be wrong! Thanks for helping me amend my statements.

 

[General Orange]

Some things I have noticed is that I will seem to have days where I am full of energy and temps are pretty consistent and then some days where I am very tired throughout the day and temps are low. Would the "bad days" correlate with PUFA release?

- Probably yes, and slow metabolism, consider niacinamide and aspirin against that.

“It’s the stored PUFA, released by stress or hunger, that slow metabolism. Niacinamide helps to lower free fatty acids, and good nutrition will allow the liver to slowly detoxify the PUFA, if it isn’t being flooded with large amounts of them. A small amount of coconut oil with each meal will increase the ability to oxidize fat, by momentarily stopping the antithyroid effect of the PUFA. Aspirin is another thing that reduces the stress-related increase of free fatty acids, stimulating metabolism. Taking a thyroid supplement is reasonable until the ratio of saturated fats to PUFA is about 2 to 1.” RP

I should mention I am also doing 45 minutes of medium-intensity weight lifting 5x a week since starting the low-fat experiment and noticed that after doing a particularly intense weight day like, say legs, the day after is when I will experience lethargy and lower temps.

- Too low fat can lead to brain fog, things against that are niacinamide, egg yolks or phosphatidylcholine for brain function support and l-carnitine for ATP. edit: some olive oil, not hemp oil. Hemp oil could be used with this trick -non Peat

I am wanting to lose weight but also increase metabolism and I'm thinking fat free will help me with that but I am feeling like I should maybe only weight train 3x a week instead of 5 to mitigate stress and improve recovery but it seems ironic that activity is supposed to help with metabolism yet in my experience, it seems to have the opposite effect, at least with training 5x a week. I should mention I have a mostly sedentary job as well.

- No, fat free is not gonna help losing weight per sé, and is disruptive, you will start craving fats sooner or later.
faster metabolism is accompanied with more fat burning and PUFA release.
- Higher activity training will increase caloric use and stress by increases PUFA release faster while burning more fat in rest.
- Again, To minimize bad effects of PUFA consider niacinamide and aspirin with the vitamin E.

“The competition between fatty acids and glucose, which has been called the “Randle cycle” for about 50 years, can be applied to the treatment of diabetes and other degenerative/stress problems by adjusting the diet, or by using supplements such as niacinamide and aspirin, which improve glucose oxidation by lowering the free fatty acids in the serum.” RP
The Randle Cycle (Glucose-Fatty Acid Cycle) – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

“Niacinamide, used in moderate doses, can safely help to restrain the excessive production of free fatty acids, and also helps to limit the wasteful conversion of glucose into fat. There is evidence that diabetics are chronically deficient in niacin. Excess fatty acids in the blood probably divert tryptophan from niacin synthesis into serotonin synthesis.” -Ray Peat
Ray Peat, PhD Quotes on Therapeutic Effects of Niacinamide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Dangers of HFLC - http://180degreehealth.com/how-to-burn-fat-and-why-you-shouldnt/

 

[Jem Oz]

Helpful info @Jon One comment though: that Katch-McArdle BMR calculator says I only need 1850 a day. Most people round these parts would say that's alarmingly low.

 

[DanielleB]

YAAY! I am so happy you are feeling energetic and more even-keeled. PLz let me know if you start the forum!
BTW am jealous you have a source for raw milk. I may need to go start knocking on some farmers' doors.

Miss Red, here is the website that lists all raw milk farms for consumers! This has helped me find raw milk in all kinds of different cities and states, very helpful indeed. Hope it helps!

https://www.realmilk.com/real-milk-finder/