Low Toxin Diet Let's Talk About Eggs, Why Do Some People Seem to Do Better On Them in the Low Toxin Groups?

[charlie]

First, we need to be able to discuss about all aspects of the low toxin movement and not get tunnel vision. It is my belief that this forum will be able to refine this movement to even better then it is now, and the next great steps of knowledge will be made here. So we need to be able to discuss all angles of the low toxin movement and I very much welcome it.

Eggs are a definite confusing topic in the low toxin groups. Some people do well on them, while others do not do well on them. From my experience I do not seem to do well on them, but I never have my entire life. Eggs always give me heartburn and bad indigestion and make me feel inflammed. I get the same reports from family members.

@orangebear has reported that he does better on eggs, I believe he said that his digestion improves with them, and I am not sure what else. Hopefully he can fill us in on how he felt before eggs, and how he felt afterwards and what they improved. And also hopefully @orangebear can bring us up to speed on why he thinks these improvements happened and what are the reported great thing about eggs.

It is reported that the choline in the eggs drives "vitamin A" into the liver and locks it there, or I think that is how the argument goes? Is that how it makes a person feel better by slowing down the detox? Or, is it somehow helping the detox and maybe opening up bottlenecks?

Is the "vitamin A" content all that high in eggs and enough to worry about? Is there substances in eggs that we need to help the detox? Lets crack open this subject and see what we find.

 

[youngsinatra]

Biotin, phospatidylcholine (thins bile; makes it less sludgy - similar to taurine), maybe folate (in HQ pasture-raised ones)

I never did that well with eggs, but I think it’s due to their allergic potential. Alongside dairy, gluten, soy and corn it’s one of the most common food sensitivity/allergen.

 

[charlie]

phospatidylcholine

That brings another great question. If a person does not handle eggs, should they might supplement Phosphatidylcholine for the reported detox enhancing properties?

 

[PopSocket]

It is important to question EVERYTHING. Good you are making this thread.

I believe by consuming eggs(choline) and creatine people feel better as they put less burden on the body to synthesize them. Especially when using Niacin.

The nutritional burden of methylation reactions

This is why some people (recently Will) feels better on more meat. (methionine) Tried to get the conversation on twitter in this direction but kept it for myself, for now. They think it is ATP depletion (which may also be part of the issue).

I do supplement with a little creatine while on Niacin and felt better when ate 2 eggs. I was feeling as if I am being poisoned while on 1gr Niacin and zero choline. Putting enough gelatin (glycine) that is required for creatine synthesis did not help much. I am consuming ~36gr of gelatin per day to make sure glycine is abundant.

Anything in excess that pushes the body to detox or whatever causes more need for certain materials that the body needs to provide. Too much restraints on the diet can cause issues and should be reserved for some people that are in terminal condition. Just my humble opinion.

 

[youngsinatra]

That brings another great question. If a person does not handle eggs, should they might supplement Phosphatidylcholine for the reported detox enhancing properties?

I don’t know. I felt heavily depressed/anhedonic from sunflower-derived phospatidylcholine.

Some people who are poor methylators can have issues with the biosynthesis of phospatidylcholine, which heavily relies on good levels of SAMe. (In fact 40-45% of all synthesized SAMe is used to make phospatidylcholine, another 40-45% to make creatine, and only 10-15% used for histamine clearance, neurotransmitters…)

We need good thyroid function & functional energy metabolism (Mg-ATP) to make SAMe from methionine (dietary protein). And sufficient riboflavin, folate and B12 to recycle it.

 

[PopSocket]

I don’t know. I felt heavily depressed/anhedonic from sunflower-derived phospatidylcholine.

Me too. The depression lasts around 24h and it feels artificial, chemically driven. My girl at the time felt the same thing. AlphaGPC put us both in a very awkward sad state of mind.

Eggs in excess does this too. So for me it was 1 day on 2 eggs then 1 day off. More than 3 days and I catch myself super depressed. No amount of thyroid or any vitamin combination helped. Just had to wait it out.

 

[youngsinatra]

High acetylcholine can inhibit dopamine/norepinephrine release iirc, leading to this depressed state.

I get a similar effect from taking too much thiamine, pantothenic acid or from eating night shades.

 

[mosaic01]

There are so many foods with choline, including beef, that it doesn't make sense to me that people are dependent on eggs for choline itself.

I think the reason eggs help some people is a liver-cleansing effect. Maybe that is due to the special form of choline, phosphatidylcholine, as it helps the liver deal with toxins, but we could also be looking at an unique effect of egg yolks to induce some kind of liver-cleansing.

I really doubt people will have the same experience when they take isolated phosphatidylcholine. for example sunflower lecithin, but I could be wrong.

It's strange that egg yolks have this special place, and many people notice that they need eggs and can't replace them with anything else.

I think the best way to test whether eggs are needed is to take 1-2 raw egg yolks on an empty stomach without other food, and that may be sufficient to do every 1-2 weeks to help the liver.

Edwin’s Egg Yolk Liver Flushing | The Cure Manual

For majority of the people who are sick with cancer or other diseases, the liver needs cleaning and nourishing. What better way to do this than with egg yolk liver flushing as the liver is nourished and cleansed at the same time. If this is the first time you are doing a liver flush, you

www.curemanual.com

When taking niacin, the methylation needs to run smoothly - but betaine should be sufficient to offset any methylation-related problems with niacin.

 

[PopSocket]

There are so many foods with choline, including beef, that it doesn't make sense to me that people are dependent on eggs for choline itself.

I think the reason eggs help some people is a liver-cleansing effect. Maybe that is due to the special form of choline, phosphatidylcholine, as it helps the liver deal with toxins, but we could also be looking at an unique effect of egg yolks to induce some kind of liver-cleansing.

I really doubt people will have the same experience when they take isolated phosphatidylcholine. for example sunflower lecithin, but I could be wrong.

It's strange that egg yolks have this special place, and many people notice that they need eggs and can't replace them with anything else.

I think the best way to test whether eggs are needed is to take 1-2 raw egg yolks on an empty stomach without other food, and that may be sufficient to do every 1-2 weeks to help the liver.

Edwin’s Egg Yolk Liver Flushing | The Cure Manual

For majority of the people who are sick with cancer or other diseases, the liver needs cleaning and nourishing. What better way to do this than with egg yolk liver flushing as the liver is nourished and cleansed at the same time. If this is the first time you are doing a liver flush, you

www.curemanual.com

When taking niacin, the methylation needs to run smoothly - but betaine should be sufficient to offset any methylation-related problems with niacin.

Was also thinking about raw yolks away from other vit A foods. Next thing on the list to try.

Edit: the betaine idea is nice. Thanks.

 

[mosaic01]

Edit: the betaine idea is nice. Thanks.

Not Betaine HCL by the way - betaine is usually called trimethylglycine (TMG).

 

[taralynne]

First, we need to be able to discuss about all aspects of the low toxin movement and not get tunnel vision. It is my belief that this forum will be able to refine this movement to even better then it is now, and the next great steps of knowledge will be made here. So we need to be able to discuss all angles of the low toxin movement and I very much welcome it.

Eggs are a definite confusing topic in the low toxin groups. Some people do well on them, while others do not do well on them. From my experience I do not seem to do well on them, but I never have my entire life. Eggs always give me heartburn and bad indigestion and make me feel inflammed. I get the same reports from family members.

@orangebear has reported that he does better on eggs, I believe he said that his digestion improves with them, and I am not sure what else. Hopefully he can fill us in on how he felt before eggs, and how he felt afterwards and what they improved. And also hopefully @orangebear can bring us up to speed on why he thinks these improvements happened and what are the reported great thing about eggs.

It is reported that the choline in the eggs drives "vitamin A" into the liver and locks it there, or I think that is how the argument goes? Is that how it makes a person feel better by slowing down the detox? Or, is it somehow helping the detox and maybe opening up bottlenecks?

Is the "vitamin A" content all that high in eggs and enough to worry about? Is there substances in eggs that we need to help the detox? Lets crack open this subject and see what we find.

I have been on and off eggs throughout as I can't definitively decide if it more helpful to include them or not. When I started the low A diet I took eggs out and did not eat them except 1 occasionally for the first several months or so. When I first added them back in they seemed to help with digestion but also caused increased hair shedding so I stopped eating them again. I tried again a couple more times but digestive benefits never returned and I was only able to finally tolerate 1 egg/day. Any more than that and hair shedding would get worse again. I kept at 1 egg/day for several months as I like eggs and its nice to have some variety to the diet but I took them out yet again about 2 weeks ago as I noticed they were regularly causing bloating. Since taking them out my nails seem to be improving again which was an early benefit to the diet but which had then stalled. I would assume that ideally I probably should not eat eggs as they are a food that I mostly stayed away from for years due to dietary sensitivities but I really would like to include them as they are quick & easy to prepare and I much prefer eggs for breakfast than beef. I'm sure I'll trial them again in the future at some point but for now I'm taking a break. Interested as well to hear the experiences of others in regard to eggs.

 

[youngsinatra]

When taking niacin, the methylation needs to run smoothly - but betaine should be sufficient to offset any methylation-related problems with niacin.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true.

If one has problems with high homocysteine and recycling of SAMe - yes.

If one has mitochondrial problems, thus low SAMe and consequently low-normal homocysteine aswell, then no. (This is much more what I see in people with CFS etc. and why classic methylation protocols fail)

But niacin by increasing ATP/NAD likely even improves methylation.

 

[peter88]

You’d have to eat 2 pounds of 93/7 ground beef to get the RDA of choline while 4 eggs contains the same amount.

 

[mosaic01]

But niacin by increasing ATP/NAD likely even improves methylation.

I agree, in low amounts it probably improves it, like 50-100mg. Only large doses put a burden on methylation.

You’d have to eat 2 pounds of 93/7 ground beef to get the RDA of choline while 4 eggs contains the same amount.

But choline is in many foods, and I would say a whole foods diet has sufficient amounts fo not cause an outright deficiency that responds so quickly to egg yolks but not to other foods.

Those who respond to egg yolks often just need one egg. But one egg only has 130mg of choline. A meal of beef, beans and cauliflower gives 400mg easily.

 

[mosaic01]

If one has mitochondrial problems, thus low SAMe and consequently low-normal homocysteine aswell, then no. (This is much more what I see in people with CFS etc. and why classic methylation protocols fail)

What do you think is the solution in that case?

TMG increases SAMe.

"In rats supplemented with an additional 0.5% betaine in their feed, it appears that SAMe production in the liver is increased two-fold relative to control; this is increased to five-fold if the rats were pretreated with ethanol (which normally impairs this pathway)[137] and injections of betaine have demonstrated dose-dependent increases in red blood cell concentrations of SAMe in rats.[138]"

Research Breakdown on Betaine - Examine

examine.com

 

[Hans]

Eating just 3 eggs have been shown to increase T by 270ng/dl compared to 6 egg whites. Most animal foods contain peptides and other nutrients that are anti-inflammatory, anti-hypertensive, anti-fibrotic, etc.
Eggs are also rich in vitamins that are hard to obtain from other foods, e.g. biotin.

In terms of vit A, according to cronometer, the vit a content of 8 egg yolk is 500IU and I generally recommend 3 - 6 eggs (particularly the yolks and depending on the individual's micronutrient needs). So Charlie, my TestoShakes are far from poisoning people to say the least.

 

[mosaic01]

In terms of vit A, according to cronometer, the vit a content of 8 egg yolk is 500IU and I generally recommend 3 - 6 eggs (particularly the yolks and depending on the individual's micronutrient needs). So Charlie, my TestoShakes are far from poisoning people to say the least.

Cronometer says 8 medium sized eggs have 500 micrograms of vA. Daily intake of >300mcg induces biliary retinol excretion, as the body tries to get rid of it as fast as possible. Thus a healthy diet should try to stay below 300mcg.

This is around 1500 IU.

The lutein also needs to be considered.

3-6 eggs per day in the context of a diet with lots of dairy and other high A foods definitely makes them toxic, it adds up.

Now, on the other hand, if someone is doing a zero A diet, then adding in a few egg yolks here and there is another story, since the absolute vA intake will stay below 300mcg.

 

[Jabuger]

Daily intake of >300mcg induces biliary retinol excretion, as the body tries to get rid of it as fast as possible. Thus a healthy diet should try to stay below 300mcg.

Do you have a reference for this, I'd like to read it.

 

[Hans]

Cronometer says 8 medium sized eggs have 500 micrograms of vA

Sorry, yes you're right.

Daily intake of >300mcg induces biliary retinol excretion, as the body tries to get rid of it as fast as possible. Thus a healthy diet should try to stay below 300mcg.

Everyone's needs are different. Someone who is active, builds muscle, gets a lot of sunlight, etc, can get away with more A.
Also, the body is good at regulating A. It can down regulate absorption and enhance excretion. Just like with all other nutrients.

3-6 eggs per day in the context of a diet with lots of dairy and other high A foods definitely makes them toxic, it adds up.

Lots of low fat non fortified dairy is fine and healthy.

Now, on the other hand, if someone is doing a zero A diet, then adding in a few egg yolks here and there is another story, since the absolute retinol intake will stay below 300mcg.

I don't agree with your conclusion.

 

[Blossom]

I’ve been on again off again with eggs since early 2020 when covid was first unleashed on us. I started eating some again on work days for convenience and to avoid starving when I was working at the hospital. There weren’t many decent choices to say the least so that’s my excuse.
I’m currently off eggs and I think my problem with them personally is sulfur tbh but I’m homozygous for CBC c699t and apparently people with that SNP do better keeping sulfur low. Right now I’m experimenting with sunflower lecithin but it’s only been a couple days so it’s too soon for me to tell anything yet.