Linus Pauling May Have Been Vindicated - Vitamin C May Treat Cancer

[yerrag]

Pauling argues that humans need much more. If you were to take the amount synthesized in the body by animals such as cats and dogs and extrapolate this onto humans who cannot make their' own, it is much more than what is commonly eaten except for some raw vegans perhaps.

Stay away from refined foods like rice and wheat and heat-treated foods. This way, you should get enough, or near enough. Ascorbate is heat-labile, so even pasteurized pineapple juice will have near zero ascorbate unless it is added afterwards.

I think he is correct, but a bane to the medical and food industries exactly for this reason.

Nobody can refute him. He was one of the most brilliant chemists in history. I adhere to his theory on cardiovascular disease 100%. I even did some fact-checking on lysine and lipoprotein A and it checks out. Theses two molecules do have a very high affinity for each other and bond 100% to each other when Lp(a) is passed through a chromatography column packed with lysine-doped media.

For those who haven't read that link, his theory on cardiovascular disease involves lipoprotein A bonding to lysine residues of collagen that hasn't been crosslinked. Citamin C is necessary to crosslink the collagen, this is beyond dispute. Pauling argues that lipoprotein A is actually a defense mechanism which plugs leaky vessels in the absence of vitamin c.

This helps explain why some carnivores cannot get atherosclerosis; they all biosynthesise their own vitamin C endogenously.

@Travis, I read somewhere that primates compensate for its inability to produce vitamin C by producing uric acid. And in one of the threads of haidut, it was mentioned that people with high amounts of uric acid, to the point of having gout, have little risk of getting cancer. I was talking to a friend who has breast cancer, and I mentioned this tidbit about uric acid and cancer, and she confirmed that she indeed has very low uric acid.

What came to my mind is what she could do to increase uric acid. I thought she could take a lot of fructose, but I didn't think it would just by itself produce enough uric acid in so short a time. I thought maybe she needed some blood vessel constriction mechanism to create hypoxic conditions so that uric acid production can be stimulated. But that would be too traumatic and dangerous. Now I'm thinking that megadosing with Vitamin C might be more appropriate, given that maybe the lack of uric acid can be compensated by megadosing with Vitamin C.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Dave Clark]

I know it isn't megadoses, but if you are looking for a true food source vitamin C supplement, try a company called Grown by Nature. Also, I know that the Wild Food vitamin C product by Rothkranz has those australian plums, along with other food source vitamin C. The label claims to have approx. 6000mg of vitamin C per serving.

 

[Travis]

@Travis, I read somewhere that primates compensate for its inability to produce vitamin C by producing uric acid.

This could be true. Uric acid could take over the general antioxidant effects of vitamin C. It appears that our bodies need a small water-soluble antioxidant to regenerate the more important ones like vitamin K, CoQ₁₀, and vitamin E.

But I don't think that uric acid can increase collagen synthesis like vitamin C can:

It does this in part by increasing procollagen RNA in the cell.

Perhaps instead of upregulating uric acid, you could try drinking coffee? Caffeine and uric acid are similar molecules:

Ray Peat talks about this is one of his articles. Here is a quote:

To talk about caffeine, it’s necessary to talk about uric acid. Uric acid, synthesized in the body, is both a stimulant and a very important antioxidant, and its structure is very similar to that of caffeine. A deficiency of uric acid is a serious problem. Caffeine and uric acid are in the group of chemicals called purines.

Purines (along with pyrimidines) are components of the nucleic acids, DNA and RNA, but they have many other functions. In general, substances related to purines are stimulants, and substances related to pyrimidines are sedatives.

When the basic purine structure is oxidized, it becomes in turn hypoxanthine, xanthine, and uric acid, by the addition of oxygen atoms. When methyl groups (CH3) are added to nitrogens in the purine ring, the molecule becomes less water soluble. Xanthine (an intermediate in purine metabolism) has two oxygen atoms, and when three methyl groups are added, it becomes trimethyl xanthine, or caffeine. With two methyl groups, it is theophylline, which is named for its presence in tea. We have enzyme systems which can add and subtract methyl groups; for example, when babies are given theophylline, they can convert it into caffeine.

We have enzymes that can modify all of the methyl groups and oxygen atoms of caffeine and the other purine derivatives. Caffeine is usually excreted in a modified form, for example as a methylated uric acid.

One of the ways in which uric acid functions as an “antioxidant” is by modifying the activity of the enzyme xanthine oxidase, which in stress can become a dangerous source of free radicals. Caffeine also restrains this enzyme. There are several other ways in which uric acid and caffeine (and a variety of intermediate xanthines) protect against oxidative damage.

• Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen
• Stimulation of Collagen Gene Expression by Ascorbic Acid in Cultured Human Fibroblasts
• Ascorbate stimulation of PAT cells causes an increase in transcription rates and a decrease in degradation rates of procoDagen mRNA

 

[yerrag]

This could be true. Uric acid could take over the general antioxidant effects of vitamin C. It appears that our bodies need a small water-soluble antioxidant to regenerate the more important ones like vitamin K, CoQ₁₀, and vitamin E.

But I don't think that uric acid can increase collagen synthesis like vitamin C can:
View attachment 5980
It does this in part by increasing procollagen RNA in the cell.
View attachment 5981
Perhaps instead of upregulating uric acid, you could try drinking coffee? Caffeine and uric acid are similar molecules:
View attachment 5982
Ray Peat talks about this is one of his articles. Here is a quote:



• Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen
• Stimulation of Collagen Gene Expression by Ascorbic Acid in Cultured Human Fibroblasts
• Ascorbate stimulation of PAT cells causes an increase in transcription rates and a decrease in degradation rates of procoDagen mRNA

Thanks Travis. I've passed on to my friend with breast cancer the benefits of drinking coffee, as far as it being a purine and can help with the production of uric acid.

As far as collagen synthesis is concerned, I am keloidal and never understood why I'm prone to forming keloids. It is considered a hereditary disease, and incidences of it are higher the darker the skin color. I don't know the mechanism behind keloid formation, and what causes it. But from personal observation, my keloid scars increased markedly when I went to the US from the Philippines close to thirty years ago. So, I'm thinking it may have something to do with sunlight and maybe vitamin D.

If vitamin C increases collagen synthesis, I wonder if this would be a good thing or not as far as keloids are concerned. If keloid is viewed as a benign cancer, and is a disease where growth and division is encouraged, and differentiation suppressed, would vitamin C be able to restore the differentiation ability to prevent the formation of keloid?

 

[TubZy]

What is your guys opinion on combing vit C with MSM for better absorption? I know Peat doesn't like MSM really due to possible allergy (he basically put DMSO and MSM in the same category of potential allergy).

 

[Wagner83]

@Travis what do you think of this quote (from @Amazoniac ):
The total collagen content of the body increases with aging, and the stiffness of that collagen also increases. The total collagen content in cancer patients is higher than in people without cancer (Zimin, et al., 2010).

 

[Travis]

I remember reading that quote before. That's a Ray Peat excerpt from The Cancer Matrix.

I tracked down that reference from Zimin:

Impact of the Content of Collagens I and III and Their Ratio in Cancer Patients for the Formation of Postoperative Ventral Hernia
Bulletin of Experimental Biology and Medicine
Ju. I. Zimin, D. A. Chichevatov, and E. E. Ponomareva

This article compares three groups of people who had hernias. The authors measured the collagen around the interior abdominal wall, ostensibly to see if the collagen content was related to the hernias. Here are the results:

Group 1 is the cancer group; group 2 is a non-cancer hernia group; and group 3 is non-cancer non-hernia group.

These numbers were created by counting pixels of stained type I and type III collagen digital micrographs. This would make these numbers a measure of collagen area, not collagen weight. Note the increase in type I over type III collagen.

Another one of Ray Peat's references is called:
Type I collagen turnover and cross-linking are increased in irradiated skin of breast cancer patients
Mirja Sassi

Conclusions: Radiotherapy induces a long-term increase in the turnover of type I collagen and leads to the accumulation of cross-linked type I collagen in skin.

Back to the Zimin article: The non-cancer groups (2 and 3) were operated on for "inguinal and femoral hernias, gastric ulcers, appendicitis, cholecystitis, acute ileus, and varicocele." Group 1 consisted of patients which had "gastric, rectal, uterine, and ovarian malignant tumors."

I would think that the cancer group ( group 1) would have been exposed to more radiation around the abdominal region potentially causing more crosslinked type I collagen (Sassi). This is a cofounder, and could perhaps explain the increase in both the total collagen and the type I/III ratio.

Ray Peat makes is sound like increased collagen is a general observation in cancer patients, and maybe it is. But if this were a general observation, I would have expected him to cite a more powerful study without the potential cofounder of ionizing radiation.

The small increase of collagen in cancer patients could be the result of medical imaging and radiation therapy, which crosslinks collagen making it more resistant to proteolysis.

 

[Amazoniac]

I remember reading that quote before. That's a Ray Peat excerpt from The Cancer Matrix.

I tracked down that reference from Zimin:

Impact of the Content of Collagens I and III and Their Ratio in Cancer Patients for the Formation of Postoperative Ventral Hernia
Bulletin of Experimental Biology and Medicine
Ju. I. Zimin, D. A. Chichevatov, and E. E. Ponomareva

This article compares three groups of people who had hernias. The authors measured the collagen around the interior abdominal wall, ostensibly to see if the collagen content was related to the hernias. Here are the results:
View attachment 5997
Group 1 is the cancer group; group 2 is a non-cancer hernia group; and group 3 is non-cancer non-hernia group.

These numbers were created by counting pixels of stained type I and type III collagen digital micrographs. This would make these numbers a measure of collagen area, not collagen weight. Note the increase in type I over type III collagen.

Another one of Ray Peat's references is called:
Type I collagen turnover and cross-linking are increased in irradiated skin of breast cancer patients
Mirja Sassi

Back to the Zimin article: The non-cancer groups (2 and 3) were operated on for "inguinal and femoral hernias, gastric ulcers, appendicitis, cholecystitis, acute ileus, and varicocele." Group 1 consisted of patients which had "gastric, rectal, uterine, and ovarian malignant tumors."

I would think that the cancer group ( group 1) would have been exposed to more radiation around the abdominal region potentially causing more crosslinked type I collagen (Sassi). This is a cofounder, and could perhaps explain the increase in both the total collagen and the type I/III ratio.

Ray Peat makes is sound like increased collagen is a general observation in cancer patients, and maybe it is. But if this were a general observation, I would have expected him to cite a more powerful study without the potential cofounder of ionizing radiation.

The small increase of collagen in cancer patients could be the result of medical imaging and radiation therapy, which crosslinks collagen making it more resistant to proteolysis.

Your posts are very good.

 

[lollipop]

Your posts are very good.

+1 learning a lot @Travis. Appreciating you making the effort to post.

 

[yerrag]

Is there a form of Vitamin C that when taken lasts longer in the body? Supposedly regular Vitamin C stays in the body only 2 hours, while the "higher grade" stays for 9 hours. Could the higher grade be DHA? I came across this reading a guide on how to treat a cat with feline distemper, on the subject of Vitamin C. So I'm wondering if this is true or not. If so, what is this form of vitamin C?

 

[ddjd]

Doesn't vitamin c increase nitric oxide?

 

[yerrag]

Sorry this is the correct one.

Nice and very informative video.

What is a good source of L-ascorbic powder where lead content is minimal?

 

[Elderflower j58]

Sorry having trouble with link

 

[Elderflower j58]

Yellow Bell Peppers for Male Infertility & Lead Poisoning? | NutritionFacts.org

Here it is

 

[Elderflower j58]

Here it ishttps://nutritionfacts.org/video/yellow-bell-peppers-for-male-infertility-and-lead-poisoning/

 

[Elderflower j58]

I seemed to have mucked it up
Not good with links, it disappeared
And then reappeared

Sorry

 

[yerrag]

I seemed to have mucked it up
Not good with links, it disappeared
And then reappeared

Sorry

lNo worries. Really glad to see that even vitamin C megadosing can help with lead toxicity. It's serendipitous that I asked about vitamin C with low lead content, as my question was more about finding vitamin C with low lead contamination, as there was concern that Vitamin C is manufactured under conditions where it could be contaminated with lead. Instead, you showed me some links about vitamin C helping with the removal of lead from tissues. This makes me more compelled to megadose with vitamin C in the near future, in case what I'm doing now with garlic isn't successful.

Still, I would be more inclined to use the oxidized DHAA method with the zucchini, rather than the yellow bell peppers. Pretty good stuff, your links! Thanks!

 

[squanch]

I've already asked in the other vitamin c thread, but I'll ask it here again.
Any thoughts on vitamin c in the form of freeze dried acerola cherry / camu camu fruit powder? (for example this one)
Would most of the vitamin c be oxidized into dehydroascorbic acid and further breakdown products during freeze drying and storage? Is there any way to test this at home? @Travis Dye titration to measure ascorbic acid of the freeze dried fruit powder probably isn't something that can be easily done at home?

Also juicing red bell peppers might be an option if one wants to get the vitamin c from fresh foods (~200 mg vitamin c per red bell pepper)

 

[Travis]

Would most of the vitamin c be oxidized into dehydroascorbic acid and further breakdown products during freeze drying and storage?

I would guess that it wouldn't because it would be immobolized. And without any water, it would have no way of diffusing towards the iron. All fruits have low amounts of iron. Get the powder wet and the vitamin C might then find something to react with, somewhere.

But we don't need to get too theoretical, as this has been tested:

Santos, P. H. S., and M. A. Silva. "Retention of vitamin C in drying processes of fruits and vegetables—A review." Drying Technology 26.12 (2008): 1421-1437.

The vitamin C can be easily degraded, depending on many variables such as pH, temperature, light, and presence of enzymes, oxygen, and metallic catalyzers.

Fruit powder in a bag should mitigate all of these factors, besides temperature.

...this review aims to present the state-of-the-art on the retention of vitamin C in fruits and vegetables....

Be modest now Dr. Santos.

This article is organized in two major sections: degradation kinetics of ascorbic acid and drying methods. [...] This part compiles several works published during 1978–2008. Different drying methods and strategies, from the simplest ones to the most sophisticated, were applied to 60 kinds of fruits and vegetables.

DEGRADATION KINETICS OF ASCORBIC ACID: [...] It has been suggested that the degradation of ascorbic acid can be described by first-order kinetics: dC/dt = –kC

He's assuring the readers that he knows calculus. Wait until you see the Thermal Death Time (TDT) integral equation...

Lee and Labuza[4] determined the ascorbic acid degradation as a function of water activity (aw). Varying [activity of water] from 0.32 to 0.84, the highest rate of loss was reported at 0.84. [...] However, increasing the water content, the aqueous phase becomes less viscous, enhancing diffusion in the media. These effects facilitate the reaction of oxidation and consequently the degradation.

There is a paradoxical effect that doesn't really matter to our topic, but it's interesting nonetheless. When drying, the ascorbic acid oxidation rate actually increases at first because the reactants become more concentrated with less water. Oxidation reaches its peak around 70% water. But after that it drops rapidly. This was done in tomatoes.

According to the authors, it is necessary to introduce a correction coefficient in this model due to the enhanced ascorbic acid degradation in the tomato halves.

Don't try to model the oxidation kinetics of tomatoes without a mathematician at hand. Only lychees can be modeled by first-order kinetics.

The low degradation rate at the beginning of the drying was attributed to the integrity of the sample structure. The intact tissue provides a protection effect from the cell oxidative components.

He get's around to explaining the dilemma: If water content increases oxidation, then why doesn't pineapple come fully-oxidized at the store? Apparently fruit has internal structure that keeps things separated. Albert Szent-Györgyi talks about this when he talks about bruising. He's written an entire article on this:

The Polyphenol Oxidase: Colors always fascinated me and so one of my earliest biochemical problems was the discoloration shown on damage by many plants. If you drop your apple, the next day you find a brown patch on the damaged place. It was known, then, that this coloration was due to the oxidation of a polyphenol to a quinone by a polyphenoloxidase. –Szent-Györgyi

Vitamin C is also a quinone.
Szent-Györgyi, Albert. "Steric, electronic and integrative factors in enzymic regulation." Advances in enzyme regulation 7 (1969): 5-11.

Another point discussed by them was the influence of light on the degradation reaction. When the light intensity was increased, ascorbic acid degradation enhanced. –Santos

Hidden on the bottom of this paper is a table showing references to other articles arranged by fruit. There were two cited for acreola:

1 Acerola or Barbados Cherry [90, 103]

Marques, Luanda G., Ana M. Silveira, and José T. Freire. "Freeze-drying characteristics of tropical fruits." Drying technology 24.4 (2006): 457-463.
Click to embiggen
An insignificant reduction upon freeze-drying the Barbados cherry. The ascorbic acid content was determined using dichlorophenolindophenol titration. This is a redox technique so would be expected to measure full-reduced vitamin C only, the only form with spare electrons to donate to the titrant. The other common technique—ultraviolet absorption—would probably be less accurate in differentiating between the two forms.

Marques, Luanda G., Maria C. Ferreira, and José T. Freire. "Freeze-drying of acerola (Malpighia glabra L.)." Chemical Engineering and Processing: Process Intensification 46.5 (2007): 451-457.

Acerola, also known as West Indian cherry, Barbados cherry or Cherry of Antilhas (Malpighia glabra L., Malpighia punicifolia L. or Malpighia emarginata DC.) is a fruit original from Antilhas which grows also in the northeast of South America and in Central America. It is round shaped, with diameter varying from 3 to 6 cm. Its fleshy and succulent pulp is encased by a very thin protection peel...

So the Barbados cherry and and acreola berry are synonymous.

The ascorbic acid contents in the “in nature” and freeze-dried samples were determined using the dichlorophenol–indophenol titration.

More losses here, but there is still quite a bit of vitamin C remaining. This is a high mega-vitamin berry!

Is there any way to test this at home? @Travis Dye titration to measure ascorbic acid of the freeze dried fruit powder probably isn't something that can be easily done at home?

You could do it, but it would be somewhat expensive. You would need a way to accurately measure the volume of dichlorophenolindophenol solution delivered the precise mass of the acreola powder to be determined, down to the microgram. A glass burette and an accurate scale would be necessary.

This is the method used Dr. Luanda G Marques:

Harris, Leslie J., and Mamie Olliver. "Vitamin methods: The reliability of the method for estimating vitamin C by titration against 2: 6-dichlorophenolindophenol. 1. Control tests with plant tissues." Biochemical Journal 36.1-2 (1942): 155.

 

[Ideonaut]

This could be true. Uric acid could take over the general antioxidant effects of vitamin C. It appears that our bodies need a small water-soluble antioxidant to regenerate the more important ones like vitamin K, CoQ₁₀, and vitamin E.

But I don't think that uric acid can increase collagen synthesis like vitamin C can:
View attachment 5980
It does this in part by increasing procollagen RNA in the cell.
View attachment 5981
Perhaps instead of upregulating uric acid, you could try drinking coffee? Caffeine and uric acid are similar molecules:
View attachment 5982
Ray Peat talks about this is one of his articles. Here is a quote:

According to Nathan Hatch http://www.fuckportioncontrol.com/blog/2017/3/18/supplement-guide "Inosine directly stimulates the production of Uric acid and will act against sleepiness. "

I remember reading in the 60s about people with higher uric acid being more ambitious/accomplished, and some of the most accomplished people, like Ben Franklin and Goethe, having had gout.





• Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen
• Stimulation of Collagen Gene Expression by Ascorbic Acid in Cultured Human Fibroblasts
• Ascorbate stimulation of PAT cells causes an increase in transcription rates and a decrease in degradation rates of procoDagen mRNA