Losing Weight - Article Containing Hints From Ray Peat Via Functional PS

[Milena]

Toxicity of Stored PUFA – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

“In a young person, good food, sunlight, and a high altitude can often overcome severe and progressive inflammatory conditions. In an older person, whose tissues contain larger amounts of polyunsaturated fats and their breakdown products, it takes more environmental support to get out of the inflammatory pattern.”

I found info contained in this article hard to find via searches on the forums. It contains a lot of strategies to take and pitfalls to avoid when losing weight (different strategies for different ages etc.)

 

[Orion]

Thanks, good find. Especially for those that do not want to read through all of Ray's articles on his site. Condense a lot of good thought/quotes to one page.

 

[Milena]

Thanks, good find. Especially for those that do not want to read through all of Ray's articles on his site. Condense a lot of good thought/quotes to one page.

Yep. I'd been looking for something like that for a while. Still, I know more than I did when I started looking at RP so perhaps I'm biased.

 

[Tarmander]

"Environmental support." Peat really emphasizes how important environment is. It's kind of sad for people stuck in toxic cities. But Peat is right, it's so hard to make any progress stuck under EMF towers, bad food, bad air, etc...

 

[whodathunkit]

Yes, @Milena, good find! Thank you!

I'm finding that my appetite is changing for the better, albeit slowly. Bringing this up because appetite is a significant factor in weight loss, especially in people who have been overweight for a long time.

For me, inflammation seems to have a great deal to do with my appetite. As my inflammation goes down, so does my yen for eating crap PUFA food and also for stuffing myself. I used to be a junk food junkie, living to eat. I often, if not always, planned my life around food. But now I'm healthier and inflammation seems to be steadily receding, I'm more of an eat to live kind of person. I still like my food but my preferences are much healthier, and my portions are saner. Healthy foods taste better and satisfies me. Thinking about what to eat next and food binges no longer occupies my time. When I"m hungry I mostly just grab something I have on hand and eat it, and I'm happy with that. If I'm in an indulgent mood I put butter or chocolate on it. Sometimes I do get a yen for crap PUFA food like pizza, pasta, etc., but it's generally only for a meal or a day, instead of a weeks-long or never-ending binge. And the intervals between PUFA yens is getting longer and longer.

Appetite reduction started several years ago when I was experimenting with choline supplementation. I accidentally dosed myself to the point of some kind of "liver cleanse" where I got sick for about a week and had deep algae-green watery stools. I've always called it a "choline flu". It was almost like a bile purge or something. Appetite changed completely and permanently after that. I've always wondered about the connection between what seemed to be going on with my liver and my appetite. Maybe it had to do with the fact that PUFA in the presence of choline deficiency produces inflammation in the liver

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.324.9877&rep=rep1&type=pdf

So maybe when I resolved the choline deficiency in my liver, inflammation started going down. I dunno. I'm still not sure that the choline flu was entirely a good thing, although it seems to have had a lot of beneficial effects. Overdosing on choline was not a particularly pleasant process...before the "choline flu" started I got some signs of excitotoxicity from too much choline, felt pretty anxious and frazzled. But interestingly, it also produced startling energy and motiviation the likes of which I hadn't seen in over a decade. After the flu appetite went down, but so did motivation and energy. But not back down to pre-choline flu levels. Motivation and energy were overall much improved over my pre-choline flu life, even if not ideal.

Things have been up and down since then but again, appetite has never returned to pre-choline flu levels. Appetite reduction seems to be permanent. As do the smaller gains in energy and motivation.

And it's getting better, especially as I spend more time in a lower-fat lifestyle (thereby helping my liver function better) and am able to incorporate more Peaty strategies for reducing inflammation. I can take gelatin daily now, am doing well with small doses of T3, am incorporating some niacinimide (which was formerly a no-go), stuff like that. My weight has stabilized at 60lbs less than my former set point. I still want to lose more but permanently lowering the set point for someone who has been significantly overweight for a longer period of time (as opposed to just a few years) may be a step-down process rather than a one-time rush to the bottom. I'm currently making a push for a lower set point. We'll see how it goes.

Another thing I think is key to solving appetite problems, which is probably related to inflammation, is resolving nutritional deficiencies, with supps if necessary. Peat doesn't like supps, particularly, but for some they may be crucial. Overweight people who eat crap PUFA food are likely to be deficient in many nutrients and minerals. Even when labs show normal levels of this or that in the blood, it doesn't really tell us whether the body is able to use those nutrients in a beneficial way.

 

[Milena]

...Appetite reduction started several years ago when I was experimenting with choline supplementation. I accidentally dosed myself to the point of some kind of "liver cleanse" where I got sick for about a week and had deep algae-green watery stools. I've always called it a "choline flu". It was almost like a bile purge or something. Appetite changed completely and permanently after that. I've always wondered about the connection between what seemed to be going on with my liver and my appetite. Maybe it had to do with the fact that PUFA in the presence of choline deficiency produces inflammation in the liver

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.324.9877&rep=rep1&type=pdf

So maybe when I resolved the choline deficiency in my liver, inflammation started going down. I dunno. I'm still not sure that the choline flu was entirely a good thing, although it seems to have had a lot of beneficial effects. Overdosing on choline was not a particularly pleasant process...before the "choline flu" started I got some signs of excitotoxicity from too much choline, felt pretty anxious and frazzled. But interestingly, it also produced startling energy and motiviation the likes of which I hadn't seen in over a decade. After the flu appetite went down, but so did motivation and energy. But not back down to pre-choline flu levels. Motivation and energy were overall much improved over my pre-choline flu life, even if not ideal.

Things have been up and down since then but again, appetite has never returned to pre-choline flu levels. Appetite reduction seems to be permanent. As do the smaller gains in energy and motivation.

And it's getting better, especially as I spend more time in a lower-fat lifestyle (thereby helping my liver function better) and am able to incorporate more Peaty strategies for reducing inflammation...

WOW! Your experience and, in particular that bit of research encourages me to get back on the eggs! Where did you get your choline from? particular foods or supplement? And how much were you taking, daily?
:) on the wordy words

 

[tfcjesse]

"Environmental support." Peat really emphasizes how important environment is. It's kind of sad for people stuck in toxic cities. But Peat is right, it's so hard to make any progress stuck under EMF towers, bad food, bad air, etc...

I've read this multiple times. Are big cities bad in general? Where are these optimal places to live? Lots of places in SoCal (thinking Newport Beach/Laguna Beach etc.) have plenty of sunlight, good food, nature nearby, air quality index <50.. elevation is sea level, however. Are these cities detrimental to progress?

 

[Milena]

@whodathunkit
I eased off on my eggs, that I'd started just before Peating. I will go back to 1 or 2 (raw with biotin) a day and maybe research choline supplements, too. I did feel better on weekly liver and eggs albeit a little gassy smelly.

 

[Tarmander]

I've read this multiple times. Are big cities bad in general? Where are these optimal places to live? Lots of places in SoCal (thinking Newport Beach/Laguna Beach etc.) have plenty of sunlight, good food, nature nearby, air quality index <50.. elevation is sea level, however. Are these cities detrimental to progress?

What you describe does not sound so bad except for maybe cell towers. Think like Detroit. I also live in a city, but live in a very clean part of it, by nature, out of range of cell towers...so you can find little oasis here and there. Living in like an apartment building in Chicago I think would be hard.

 

[Milena]

What you describe does not sound so bad except for maybe cell towers. Think like Detroit. I also live in a city, but live in a very clean part of it, by nature, out of range of cell towers...so you can find little oasis here and there. Living in like an apartment building in Chicago I think would be hard.

Just build a little faraday cage for some light relief.

 

[whodathunkit]

WOW! Your experience and, in particular that bit of research encourages me to get back on the eggs! Where did you get your choline from? particular foods or supplement? And how much were you taking, daily?

IMO if you have a sluggish liver eggs are not the best idea to resolve a deficiency because they're typically loaded with PUFA even if "free range". I say this because I ate a lot of eggs before supplementing with powdered choline and they didn't seem to do me much good. Certainly not like supplementing with the powders. Of course I usually ate eggs with butter or other PUFA fat like bacon, which was also adding to the fat load in my liver, so take that for what it's worth. However, my feeling is that supplementation might be best in the beginning, to resolve an existing deficiency, simply because eggs are fatty and probably add to an existing PUFA load.

To supplement I used pure alpha GPC powder and pure citicholine powder from Peak Nootropics. Very high quality stuff, although PN alpha GPC will eventually melt away because it's pure and doesn't have any dessicants in it. So if you get it, don't buy too much. Taking too much choline is not a good idea, anyway, especially if you drink coffee (coffee antagonizes the enzyme that breaks down choline, thereby extending its effects). My idea is to resolve a potential deficiency by "loading", and then keep an adequate level up going forward. My thinking is that eggs can probably keep levels adequate but may not be so good at resolve a deficiency, especially if the deficiency is severe. YMMV.

Worth noting is that I definitely overdosed, and this is something no one wants to do. I was taking over 1000mg/day of choline for a couple months. Too much! I'd say probably 250mg/day for a week is suffiicent, then judge how you feel. Back off at the first noticing of fuzzy-brain, stress, headache, etc.

Also, I've read that raw eggs are not the greatest, although I can't remember exactly why now. Not because of salmonella but something about poor digestion or they block something that's crucial. LOL Maybe biotin? I used to whisk raw eggs into OJ and milk to make a kind of Orange Julius, but now always cook them. In general I use them very sparingly.

Too keep up choline I take 5oomg of alpha GPC once or possibly twice a week. Usually once. Alpha GPC has more available choline than any other form. I'm taking it for the potential benefit to the liver rather than any nootropic benefit. Other cholines like bitartrate and citicholine reportedly have more nootropic benefit.

Anyway, good luck! :)

 

[Milena]

IMO if you have a sluggish liver eggs are not the best idea to resolve a deficiency because they're typically loaded with PUFA even if "free range". I say this because I ate a lot of eggs before supplementing with powdered choline and they didn't seem to do me much good. Certainly not like supplementing with the powders. Of course I usually ate eggs with butter or other PUFA fat like bacon, which was also adding to the fat load in my liver, so take that for what it's worth. However, my feeling is that supplementation might be best in the beginning, to resolve an existing deficiency, simply because eggs are fatty and probably add to an existing PUFA load.

The PUFA is pretty low (0.7g per yolk), therefore, as I don't add fat.

To supplement I used pure alpha GPC powder and pure citicholine powder from Peak Nootropics. Very high quality stuff, although PN alpha GPC will eventually melt away because it's pure and doesn't have any dessicants in it. So if you get it, don't buy too much. Taking too much choline is not a good idea, anyway, especially if you drink coffee (coffee antagonizes the enzyme that breaks down choline, thereby extending its effects). My idea is to resolve a potential deficiency by "loading", and then keep an adequate level up going forward. My thinking is that eggs can probably keep levels adequate but may not be so good at resolve a deficiency, especially if the deficiency is severe. YMMV.

I eat liver so am not sure I have an actual deficiency. I'll have to find out how to tell (sans blood tests).
Thanks for the details on choline supplements. I'll check whether they are available in UK at reasonable price.

Also, I've read that raw eggs are not the greatest, although I can't remember exactly why now. Something about poor digestion or they block something that's crucial. LOL I used to whisk raw eggs into OJ and milk to make a kind of Orange Julius, but now always cook them. In general I use them very sparingly. Instead I take 5oomg of alpha GPC once or twice a week. Alpha GPC has more available choline than any other form. I'm taking it for the potential benefit to the liver rather than any nootropic benefit. Other cholines like bitartrate and citicholine reportedly have more nootropic benefit.

I think it's the avidin in the raw white which hammers the biotin. I add a little biotin to the milk I lob the eggs into. I really can't be bothered to cook the eggs.

Anyway, good luck! :)

 

[Tarmander]

Just build a little faraday cage for some light relief.

Oh yeah. I almost got stuck by an airport and I had a 10x10 popup and a roll of screen door ready to go!

 

[Milena]

Oh yeah. I almost got stuck by an airport and I had a 10x10 popup and a roll of screen door ready to go!

 

[whodathunkit]

I eat liver so am not sure I have an actual deficiency. I'll have to find out how to tell (sans blood tests).

I had some symptoms of choline deficiency such as fatigue, cognitive difficulty, memory decline, etc. Symptoms of other things, too, but my history also showed the potential for moderate to severe deficiency (poor eating habits, drug and alcohol abuse, other lifestyle factors correlating with low-level liver problems, etc.). So I just decided to try it. I was also taking sulbutiamine, ALCAR, and a nootropic called Noopept at the same time, so those actually could account for some of the anxiety and cholinergic symptoms. But I was only taking very small amounts of sulbutiamine and Noopept, and my gut tells me most of what happened to me was due to the choline. Certainly the bile purge indicates interesting things going on with the liver, which points back to the large doses of choline.

I did not realize liver had choline in it. Duh. Thanks for the heads up on that! I'm eating liver once per week (I do eat that raw) so will probably space out my choline supplementation away from liver intake.

Not necessarily nudging you into choline supps. But since it did me good I figure it might help others similarly, so sharing all the deets in case they're helpful. :)

 

[Milena]

I had some symptoms of choline deficiency such as fatigue, cognitive difficulty, memory decline, etc. Symptoms of other things, too, but my history also showed the potential for moderate to severe deficiency (poor eating habits, drug and alcohol abuse, other lifestyle factors correlating with low-level liver problems, etc.). So I just decided to try it. I was also taking sulbutiamine, ALCAR, and a nootropic called Noopept at the same time, so those actually could account for some of the anxiety and cholinergic symptoms. But I was only taking very small amounts of sulbutiamine and Noopept, and my gut tells me most of what happened to me was due to the choline. Certainly the bile purge indicates interesting things going on with the liver, which points back to the large doses of choline.

I did not realize liver had choline in it. Duh. Thanks for the heads up on that! I'm eating liver once per week (I do eat that raw) so will probably space out my choline supplementation away from liver intake.

Not necessarily nudging you into choline supps. But since it did me good I figure it might help others similarly, so sharing all the deets in case they're helpful. :)

1 egg is about as good as 5oz of beef liver. I may revise my statement about my potential sufficiency. Cauliflower is also very high - won't be going there any time soon although I do like it. On an RP ortho diet (restricted variety) I find I want to know all potential deficiencies and solutions (avoiding, supps) I love the sharing, here.
I've just found out that high ALT may indicate choline deficiency and I have high ALT and have had for sometime.
Wikipedia drops some hints
Methionine and folate are known to interact with choline while homocysteine is undergoing methylation to produce methionine. Recent studies have shown that choline deficiency may have adverse effects, even when sufficient amounts of methionine and folate are present

 

[whodathunkit]

I've just found out that high ALT may indicate choline deficiency and I have high ALT and have had for sometime. Wikipedia drops some hints

I've become convinced our health is pretty much all about the liver. And the hell of it is that problems can exist even in the absence of poor lab values on tests like ALT. I had high ALT for a while when I was overdosing on prescription acetaminophen (long ago) and it went back down after I stopped taking that crap. BUT...ever since I've had lotta signs of poor liver function even in the absence of bad liver tests. Sadly, I was taking the acetaminophen when I first went low carb/Atkins. "Sub clinical" fatty liver, I suspect. So, double whammy there.

IMO choline deficiency is a really overlooked health problem. But it's difficult because it's easy to get too much choline when supplementing, and then there's the prevalence of AChE inhibitors like coffee in our diet, which can exacerbate the neurological effects of choline. Excitotoxicity from too much choline is no fun and no joke. But neither are liver problems due to choline insufficiency. Problem is find the balance. I don't think it's that hard to do but it's not really something we tinker with much. Most people think choline is just a nootropic, and most forms of choline don't have that much actual choline available to the liver. But choline has big ramifcations for overall health via the liver.

1 egg is about as good as 5oz of beef liver. I may revise my statement about my potential sufficiency.

IMO it's not just about the nutrient content of food. I think too many eggs can add to a liver problem because of their high fat content, particularly because they're typically loaded with PUFA. Even free range hens are probably vegetarian fed. But they can claim free range because they have free access to other things. But their diet may be predominantly PUFA-heavy feed. I'm betting they don't strew buckets of worms or crickets across the hen pastures, for instance.

Also because of the fat problem in eggs, they may actually impede the use of the choline that's in them, at least when liver problems are present.

Liver may be a better source of choline in the case of "sub clinical liver problems" because eating the nutrients and things in organ tissues seem to have an affinity for our own organs when eaten. I can't say why, but that seems to always have been the case.

Problem with liver is it will crash your thyroid pretty quick if you eat too much of it, so if you need to make up a bigger deficiency it may not be enough. Which is why I also supplement a little alpha GPC. I probably won't do that forever, either. Just until I get my health where I think it ought to be.

For whatever that's worth. Most of what I think is experiential in that I've experienced it but I can't cite studies to back up what I say. But what often happens is I'll find studies later (that maybe I've already read but forgot ) to back up my crack-brained theories. LOL

 

[Milena]

I went to the two supplement stores in town, today, and found neither carries Alpha DPC although both knew about it. One was too busy (1 person- long till queue) and the other carries http://www.solgar.com/SolgarProducts/CholineInositol-500-mg500-mg-Vegetable-Capsules.htm which I don't know if it's good or not. @whodathunkit any comment? Thanks for the wordy posts; I'z rubizh.

The swelling in my legs does go down when I eat eggs so I will continue with them as a source for now. I love liver but don't crave it at the moment, or even feel like eating it so I guess I'm up to speed B12-wise. I have some lambs liver to fry up in 1/2 tsp CO with onions.

I'm going back low-fat for another 3 weeks. Farewell unpasteurised Comte cheese, I will miss you (every Saturday,170g treat purchase from Lidl)

 

[beachbum]

I've become convinced our health is pretty much all about the liver.

Totally agree. Also Taurine is good for liver. I just started using it.

 

[SQu]

Agree about the choline. It's been my experience too. I get a hangover feeling after a few egg free days. Agree about taurine, it's a favourite of mine.