Low Estradiol and Low DHEA-S (Joint Pain, Night Sweats, Paresthesia)

[Julian]

So I've been dealing with:
Joint pain, night sweats, and paresthesia (vibrating tingling feelings in my feet mostly).

Back Story

I'm a 34-year-old male. I transitioned into Peating after years of fasting a lot and eating low sugar. When I started adding more carbs I gained a lot of weight (mostly belly fat) but my overall health has improved. Nowadays I hardly have cold hands and feet anymore, so I think my thyroid is functioning much better.

However, I've been dealing with random joint pain and paresthesia for a long time. Sometimes it's pretty much gone for a long period of time, and then it suddenly comes back again. It usually comes and goes and is felt in my fingers and feet.

I lift weights 3 times a week and I have been looking at increasing testosterone. In my quest to do this I found the method of Icing your balls with an icepack 3 times a day for about 20-30 minutes. This really seemed to work, however, this started more joint pain for me and I started getting night sweats. I must say that I also experimented a bit with DHEA and Pansterone (not for a long time though).

Because I really thought I would have high estrogen, I ordered some Aromasin and took 5mg one time. I noticed that my joint pain got really intense that day. So this made me actually question the high estrogen hypothesis. I started browsing the forums here and I found many anecdotes of people who got similar symptoms from low estradiol levels. So I decided to get some labs and see what my hormone levels are:

My Hormone Labs:

Estradiol 18.52 pg/ml
Testosteron 326 ng/dL
Free Tesosterone 76.2 pg/mL
SHBG 25 nmol/l

Estradiol seems pretty low which is probably why I am having these symptoms. And Testosterone doesn't seem that high as well.

Low DHEA-S

However, then I got the lab results back from DHEA-S

DHEA-S 2.4 umol/l

The normal range for this is 4.1-14.4 umol/l. So I'm thinking that the low estradiol and lowish testosterone could be due to the low DHEA-S. Which might indicate an issue with the adrenals.

Some of my thoughts

I'm not sure what to do now. Should I go to the doctor and ask for a specialist to check my adrenals? (I find it's pretty hard to work with the healthcare system here in the Netherlands, doctors are so stuck in their paradigms and don't really listen to self-diagnosis and personal concerns)

I'm afraid to supplement more DHEA, because I'm not sure if supplementing it made things worse. And shall I eat some phytoestrogens to get my estradiol up?

Would love some input

Do you have any idea what could be causing this and how I can fix it?

Any help would be highly appreciated.

 

[Julian]

@TheBeard I saw you talking about low estradiol and hormones on occasion, would you care to comment on my post? Would really appreciate it.

 

[mostlylurking]

So I've been dealing with:
Joint pain, night sweats, and paresthesia (vibrating tingling feelings in my feet mostly).

Back Story

I'm a 34-year-old male. I transitioned into Peating after years of fasting a lot and eating low sugar. When I started adding more carbs I gained a lot of weight (mostly belly fat) but my overall health has improved. Nowadays I hardly have cold hands and feet anymore, so I think my thyroid is functioning much better.

However, I've been dealing with random joint pain and paresthesia for a long time. Sometimes it's pretty much gone for a long period of time, and then it suddenly comes back again. It usually comes and goes and is felt in my fingers and feet.

I lift weights 3 times a week and I have been looking at increasing testosterone. In my quest to do this I found the method of Icing your balls with an icepack 3 times a day for about 20-30 minutes. This really seemed to work, however, this started more joint pain for me and I started getting night sweats. I must say that I also experimented a bit with DHEA and Pansterone (not for a long time though).

Because I really thought I would have high estrogen, I ordered some Aromasin and took 5mg one time. I noticed that my joint pain got really intense that day. So this made me actually question the high estrogen hypothesis. I started browsing the forums here and I found many anecdotes of people who got similar symptoms from low estradiol levels. So I decided to get some labs and see what my hormone levels are:

My Hormone Labs:

Estradiol 18.52 pg/ml
Testosteron 326 ng/dL
Free Tesosterone 76.2 pg/mL
SHBG 25 nmol/l

Estradiol seems pretty low which is probably why I am having these symptoms. And Testosterone doesn't seem that high as well.

Low DHEA-S

However, then I got the lab results back from DHEA-S

DHEA-S 2.4 umol/l

The normal range for this is 4.1-14.4 umol/l. So I'm thinking that the low estradiol and lowish testosterone could be due to the low DHEA-S. Which might indicate an issue with the adrenals.

Some of my thoughts

I'm not sure what to do now. Should I go to the doctor and ask for a specialist to check my adrenals? (I find it's pretty hard to work with the healthcare system here in the Netherlands, doctors are so stuck in their paradigms and don't really listen to self-diagnosis and personal concerns)

I'm afraid to supplement more DHEA, because I'm not sure if supplementing it made things worse. And shall I eat some phytoestrogens to get my estradiol up?

Would love some input

Do you have any idea what could be causing this and how I can fix it?

Any help would be highly appreciated.

from here: 9 Signs Of Thiamine Shortage In Your Body: - amazinghealthtips
snippet:
9. Feeling Of Pins And Needles In Limbs
The peripheral nerves that reach finally your arms and legs rely heavily on the action of thiamine. In cases of deficiency, peripheral nerve damage and paresthesia can happen. Tingling, prickling, burning or the sensation of “pins and needles” in the upper and lower limbs is just a symptom known as paresthesia.

Spend some time watching Elliott Overton videos here: https://www.youtube.com/c/EONutrition/featured

good thiamine articles to consider: You searched for thiamine - Hormones Matter

If you have an issue with excess fat storage it is unlikely that you actually have an estrogen deficiency. Estrogen hides inside the cells and so is not picked up via blood tests.

If you were borderline thiamine deficient and increased your sugar intake and your coffee intake when you started following Ray Peat, you may have exacerbated the thiamine deficiency problem.

Many prescription drugs, including some antibiotics, block thiamine function. It's almost like the medical industry is trying to kill us....

If you are interested in testing out the idea that a thiamine deficiency is to blame, you could simply take 250mg-300mg thiamine hcl. Take your temperature first with a reliable thermometer; digital ones are not very reliable. Then take the thiamine with a glass of water and don't eat any sugar or drink coffee or tea. Within an hour you should notice improvement. It works pretty fast. Take your temperature again to see if it went up. Thiamine lab tests are not reliable, except for the one covered in this video:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG3m3tbEGU0

 

[Hans]

So I've been dealing with:
Joint pain, night sweats, and paresthesia (vibrating tingling feelings in my feet mostly).

Back Story

I'm a 34-year-old male. I transitioned into Peating after years of fasting a lot and eating low sugar. When I started adding more carbs I gained a lot of weight (mostly belly fat) but my overall health has improved. Nowadays I hardly have cold hands and feet anymore, so I think my thyroid is functioning much better.

However, I've been dealing with random joint pain and paresthesia for a long time. Sometimes it's pretty much gone for a long period of time, and then it suddenly comes back again. It usually comes and goes and is felt in my fingers and feet.

I lift weights 3 times a week and I have been looking at increasing testosterone. In my quest to do this I found the method of Icing your balls with an icepack 3 times a day for about 20-30 minutes. This really seemed to work, however, this started more joint pain for me and I started getting night sweats. I must say that I also experimented a bit with DHEA and Pansterone (not for a long time though).

Because I really thought I would have high estrogen, I ordered some Aromasin and took 5mg one time. I noticed that my joint pain got really intense that day. So this made me actually question the high estrogen hypothesis. I started browsing the forums here and I found many anecdotes of people who got similar symptoms from low estradiol levels. So I decided to get some labs and see what my hormone levels are:

My Hormone Labs:

Estradiol 18.52 pg/ml
Testosteron 326 ng/dL
Free Tesosterone 76.2 pg/mL
SHBG 25 nmol/l

Estradiol seems pretty low which is probably why I am having these symptoms. And Testosterone doesn't seem that high as well.

Low DHEA-S

However, then I got the lab results back from DHEA-S

DHEA-S 2.4 umol/l

The normal range for this is 4.1-14.4 umol/l. So I'm thinking that the low estradiol and lowish testosterone could be due to the low DHEA-S. Which might indicate an issue with the adrenals.

Some of my thoughts

I'm not sure what to do now. Should I go to the doctor and ask for a specialist to check my adrenals? (I find it's pretty hard to work with the healthcare system here in the Netherlands, doctors are so stuck in their paradigms and don't really listen to self-diagnosis and personal concerns)

I'm afraid to supplement more DHEA, because I'm not sure if supplementing it made things worse. And shall I eat some phytoestrogens to get my estradiol up?

Would love some input

Do you have any idea what could be causing this and how I can fix it?

Any help would be highly appreciated.

Have you checked cortisol as well? Sometimes DHEA is very low, but cortisol very high.

 

[Explorer]

Have you checked cortisol as well? Sometimes DHEA is very low, but cortisol very high.

Could it be a sign of adrenal problems or just some form of a stressor causing high cortisol? I too had a blood test and my DHEA-S is on the lower end and my cortisol was like 604nmol/ml (with maximum reference being in 500s for the morning)

Would DHEA or Pregnenolone supplementation help balance that?

 

[Julian]

Have you checked cortisol as well? Sometimes DHEA is very low, but cortisol very high.

I haven't but I might soon. It would be weird if it is very high since my hands and feet are pretty warm nowadays..

 

[Julian]

If you are interested in testing out the idea that a thiamine deficiency is to blame, you could simply take 250mg-300mg thiamine hcl. Take your temperature first with a reliable thermometer; digital ones are not very reliable. Then take the thiamine with a glass of water and don't eat any sugar or drink coffee or tea. Within an hour you should notice improvement. It works pretty fast. Take your temperature again to see if it went up. Thiamine lab tests are not reliable, except for the one covered in this video:

Thanks for your post. However, I don't think it's thiamine. I have tried Allithiamine a few times and it doesn't really make a difference.

 

[Julian]

Could it be a sign of adrenal problems or just some form of a stressor causing high cortisol? I too had a blood test and my DHEA-S is on the lower end and my cortisol was like 604nmol/ml (with maximum reference being in 500s for the morning)

Would DHEA or Pregnenolone supplementation help balance that?

Hmm yeah would be strange since I feel like my metabolism has really improved in the last year. However, I haven't tested cortisol yet.

I also wonder if DHEA supplementing would be a good idea. But I'm kinda afraid to supplement it again because I took it before and I'm not sure if that was actually something that worsened the symptoms.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for your post. However, I don't think it's thiamine. I have tried Allithiamine a few times and it doesn't really make a difference.

Allithiamine gave me a raging headache. Thiamine hcl, on the other hand, saved my life. You will see more studies using allithiamine; it's synthetic and newer whereas hcl is generic and dirt cheap, but that does not mean that hcl doesn't work; it's just old and boring.

What you describe (paresthesia) points to nerve inflammation/damage. I've recently been through that. Thiamine corrects this problem. Dr. Costantini of Italy treated over 4,000 Parkinson's Disease patients successfully with thiamine hcl. He stated that it is the only one that would "get into the neurons". Here's his website: HIGH-D0SE THIAMINE (HDT) THERAPY for Parkinson's Disease

If you want to try the thiamine hcl, it's cheap and safe and over the counter. If not, that's okay, suit yourself.

If you want to pursue the DHEA supplementation, you might consider taking pregnenolone instead; it turns into DHEA but it won't make too much. Taking too much DHEA can be problematic because it can turn into estrogen which is inflammatory. I've supplemented with pregnenolone for over 6 years. My DHEA levels on my blood work are optimal.

 

[Julian]

Allithiamine gave me a raging headache. Thiamine hcl, on the other hand, saved my life. You will see more studies using allithiamine; it's synthetic and newer whereas hcl is generic and dirt cheap, but that does not mean that hcl doesn't work; it's just old and boring.

What you describe (paresthesia) points to nerve inflammation/damage. I've recently been through that. Thiamine corrects this problem. Dr. Costantini of Italy treated over 4,000 Parkinson's Disease patients successfully with thiamine hcl. He stated that it is the only one that would "get into the neurons". Here's his website: HIGH-D0SE THIAMINE (HDT) THERAPY for Parkinson's Disease

If you want to try the thiamine hcl, it's cheap and safe and over the counter. If not, that's okay, suit yourself.

If you want to pursue the DHEA supplementation, you might consider taking pregnenolone instead; it turns into DHEA but it won't make too much. Taking too much DHEA can be problematic because it can turn into estrogen which is inflammatory. I've supplemented with pregnenolone for over 6 years. My DHEA levels on my blood work are optimal.

Thanks for your input. I'm pretty sure the joint issues and paraesthesia are because of the low estrogen, which in turn is probably because of the low DHEA-S. I also feel pretty numb emotionally, which is also a symptom of low estradiol.

I might try pregnenolone, however, I'm a bit hesitant now to start introducing hormone supplements again in fear of making things worse.

 

[Julian]

Just measured my blood pressure and its: 140/67

This seems to be a bit on the high end. Normally my blood pressure was definitely lower.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for your input. I'm pretty sure the joint issues and paraesthesia are because of the low estrogen, which in turn is probably because of the low DHEA-S. I also feel pretty numb emotionally, which is also a symptom of low estradiol.

I might try pregnenolone, however, I'm a bit hesitant now to start introducing hormone supplements again in fear of making things worse.

Because I spent over 40 years being estrogen dominant and suffered a LOT from joint pain all that time, I tend to doubt your idea that joint pain is from estrogen deficiency. Estrogen's sole purpose is to cause inflammation. See Ray Peat's articles about estrogen here: Programmable Search Engine

After about 40 years of the estrogen dominance, I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, including some pretty serious joint degeneration. The rheumatoid arthritis and the joint degeneration resolved from taking an optimized dose of prescription natural desiccated thyroid (Acella brand) with the help of a good endocrinologist, along with a large dose of progesterone daily which drove the estrogen out of the cells so the liver could detox it. After six years, the joint pain returned last fall with a vengeance due to severe thiamine functional blockage (caused by Bactrim antibiotic). That joint inflammation resolved via high dose thiamine hcl. The common thread in this story is joint pain is a symptom of damaged metabolic energy production. Estrogen lugs down your liver so it can't convert T4 to T3, causing hypothyroidism. Both hypothyroidism and also thiamine deficiency/blockage cause severely reduced metabolic energy production.

PUFA causes joint inflammation too, basically in the same way that estrogen does. It too causes severely reduced metabolic energy.

You might find reading about the thyroid helpful. Here's a link to Ray Peat's articles about thyroid: Programmable Search Engine

Start with this one that talks about hypothyroidism and arthritis: Blocking Tissue Destruction

There's also a trio of Ray Peat interviews on Politics and Science that discuss estrogen and progesterone that you may find helpful:

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for your input. I'm pretty sure the joint issues and paraesthesia are because of the low estrogen, which in turn is probably because of the low DHEA-S. I also feel pretty numb emotionally, which is also a symptom of low estradiol.

I might try pregnenolone, however, I'm a bit hesitant now to start introducing hormone supplements again in fear of making things worse.

question: what are you basing your ideas about estradiol's "attributes" on? Sources?

 

[Julian]

question: what are you basing your ideas about estradiol's "attributes" on? Sources?

When you do a google search for low estrogen symptoms you'll find things like:
- Joint pain
- Night Sweats and hot flashes
- Numb emotions
- Sleep problems

I have experienced all of those.

There are also a lot of anecdotes on this forum. You can read some for instance in this post:

Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

Or just search the forum for low estrogen.

There are also many anecdotes of body builder on the body building forums where they use an aromatase inhibitor and experience these symptoms like joint pain.

When I tried an aromatase inhibitor the joint pain immediately got way worse. So I'm very much convinced these symptoms are because of the low estradiol. (my blood labs also show pretty low levels).

My mind has also been blown btw, because I totally bought into the whole "get estrogen as low as possible" narrative. But you probably don't want to go too low.

 

[mostlylurking]

When you do a google search for low estrogen symptoms you'll find things like:
- Joint pain
- Night Sweats and hot flashes
- Numb emotions
- Sleep problems

I have experienced all of those.

There are also a lot of anecdotes on this forum. You can read some for instance in this post:

Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

Or just search the forum for low estrogen.

There are also many anecdotes of body builder on the body building forums where they use an aromatase inhibitor and experience these symptoms like joint pain.

When I tried an aromatase inhibitor the joint pain immediately got way worse. So I'm very much convinced these symptoms are because of the low estradiol. (my blood labs also show pretty low levels).

My mind has also been blown btw, because I totally bought into the whole "get estrogen as low as possible" narrative. But you probably don't want to go too low.

So did you read the Comments below the video? If you want to believe this video, it's entirely your choice. I'm going to stick with Ray Peat's advice and articles because I've learned over time that I can trust Ray's knowledge.

I really don't think that you can successfully "go too low" when it comes to estrogen because the blood tests are not very reliable. If you've got inflammation, you've got estrogen. If you are carrying extra fat, you've got estrogen there too. It's sort of like saying you can "go too low" when avoiding PUFA. PUFA is pretty much in everything edible.

There is an enormous difference between relying on Ray Peat's knowledge and relying on strangers posting on the Ray Peat Forum. Just because you found it posted on this forum does not make it true. Discernment is a survival skill.

 

[Julian]

So did you read the Comments below the video? If you want to believe this video, it's entirely your choice. I'm going to stick with Ray Peat's advice and articles because I've learned over time that I can trust Ray's knowledge.

I really don't think that you can successfully "go too low" when it comes to estrogen because the blood tests are not very reliable. If you've got inflammation, you've got estrogen. If you are carrying extra fat, you've got estrogen there too. It's sort of like saying you can "go too low" when avoiding PUFA. PUFA is pretty much in everything edible.

There is an enormous difference between relying on Ray Peat's knowledge and relying on strangers posting on the Ray Peat Forum. Just because you found it posted on this forum does not make it true. Discernment is a survival skill.

I wasn't talking about the video of the original poster. I was talking about the many experiences of people throughout that thread.

Look man, I get it. I parroted all the anti-estrogen stuff too. But my estrogen levels are low, and these symptoms are experienced by people with low estradiol. You can find proof of that everywhere. So to me this is an undeniable fact.

Just take a good dose of an aromatase inhibitor like exemestane for a while and I'm pretty sure you'll find out.

I do think that too much estrogen sucks as well, so I'm not debating that.

 

[mostlylurking]

I wasn't talking about the video of the original poster. I was talking about the many experiences of people throughout that thread.

Look man, I get it. I parroted all the anti-estrogen stuff too. But my estrogen levels are low, and these symptoms are experienced by people with low estradiol. You can find proof of that everywhere. So to me this is an undeniable fact.

I do think that too much estrogen sucks as well, so I'm not debating that.

suit yourself.

 

[Julian]

Anybody else have some imput?

What could be causing the low DHEA-S and how do I fix this?

 

[Julian]

If you want to pursue the DHEA supplementation, you might consider taking pregnenolone instead; it turns into DHEA but it won't make too much. Taking too much DHEA can be problematic because it can turn into estrogen which is inflammatory. I've supplemented with pregnenolone for over 6 years. My DHEA levels on my blood work are optimal.

Btw, what doses of pregnenolone did you take? What's recommended?

And did you get a specific brand?

 

[mostlylurking]

Btw, what doses of pregnenolone did you take? What's recommended?

And did you get a specific brand?

I'm using this one: Products - Pregnenolone - healthnatura.com

I took 1/4 teas (= about 600mg)/day for about 6 years. In February I increased the dose to about a gram/day. I could tell I improved on that higher dose so I am continuing with it. I also take about 44mg of progesterone daily.

What's recommended? by who? Here's a Ray Peat article that discusses pregnenolone:

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS AND OTHER HORMONE-RELATED BRAIN SYNDROMES.

The hormones pregnenolone, thyroid, and estrogen are involved in several ways with the changes that occur in multiple sclerosis, but no one talks about them.

raypeat.com

also this one:

Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones

Ray Peat

raypeat.com