Meditation Is a Psychological Stressor and Should Not Be Recommended

[dhtsupreme]

I used to stare at a candle for hours lol. It's fascinating for me how something so ruthless and fierce as fire can also be so calming and lock your gaze for so long.

It is! Not just that, it gives life (the sun), energy, and warmth. I like how Dr. Peat recognizes how significant it is to an organism

People used to worship the sun. I never knew to what degree some religions are based off of it

 

[Daft]

I used to stare at a candle for hours lol. It's fascinating for me how something so ruthless and fierce as fire can also be so calming and lock your gaze for so long.

It's been with us since the beginning :)

 

[AlexR]

Oh boy you make it sound like it's as serious as taking an ssri drug. 14 people had issues in 19 meditation studies scientists have conducted. Do you not realize how miniscule that is? There are probably other reasons why they struggled and got acute psychosis that researchers were unaware of

Is Mindfulness Useful or Dangerous for Individuals with Psychosis? | Here to Help

Tania Lecomte, PhD, RPsych, and Alicia Spidel, MA, PhD Candidate Reprinted from the Mindfulness issue of Visions Journal, 2016, 12 (2), p. 10

www.heretohelp.bc.ca

"Almost all reported cases of meditation-induced psychosis took place during meditation retreats where people meditated for several hours each day.4"

Most people don't meditate for several hours a day. If you feel odd then just stop. How difficult is that? Is this not common sense?

No it's not common sense that soybean oil is good for your heart. You're taking a bean and extracting the oil at high concentrations for consumption. Common sense is that sugar from a naturally growing fruit on a tree is healthy and 100 times better than sugar in a candy cane from a factory devoid of anything else. That's simple thinking. Most don't need an article to realize that. What they struggle with is stopping the habit of eating a candy cane. Meditation helps with that. You feel the urge to eat a candy cane and stay calm focusing on your breath, watch the thought to eat a candy cane go away like a cloud passing through the sky and eat a nice fruit feeling good about yourself

It's been done for 1000's of years. There's so many anecdotes of it working for individuals and here you are saying it causes psychosis off of a few cases lol Meditation is so useful and can also help people that struggle with thinking before they speak. You should try it gl

Just because only so many cases were reported, doesn't mean they don't exist. It clearly demonstrates that meditation has the potential to cause some serious damage as opposed to the mainstream view that it is always beneficial. Plus, you say the people who had serious effects had prior conditions like stress and mental health problems, but these are exactly the people who meditation is targeted at. You simply can't always stop having serious psychosis when it occurs, so your point about "just stopping" is moot and it's irresponsible and unethical to suggest something that can potentially have extreme consequences.

 

[AlexR]

I have heard instances of people having adverse experiences with meditation, but meditation is not supposed to always feel comfortable, because uncomfortable thoughts, physical sensations, sexual urges etc. may arise during the process. This doesn’t mean that meditation itself is bad. In fact, meditation is often described as a purification, and that means it is not always peaceful and pleasant.

Here is where the problem lies. Meditation dogma will tell you that adverse reactions are a natural part of the process, but it is clear that this may actually be a stressor that can cause serious harm in some individuals. Just because some people tolerate a poison better than others, doesn't mean that it isn't a poison.

 

[AlexR]

Lmfao i think its funny how youre only responding to my comments, guess i struck a nerve

I guess you didn't read the thread. I thought meditation was supposed to cultivate self-control and discipline? What's the deal with you?

 

[dhtsupreme]

Just because only so many cases were reported, doesn't mean they don't exist. It clearly demonstrates that meditation has the potential to cause some serious damage as opposed to the mainstream view that it is always beneficial. Plus, you say the people who had serious effects had prior conditions like stress and mental health problems, but these are exactly the people who meditation is targeted at. You simply can't always stop having serious psychosis when it occurs, so your point about "just stopping" is moot and it's irresponsible and unethical to suggest something that can potentially have extreme consequences.

Listen it's not moot. You're not going to get psychosis with 5 minutes of meditation. If you had a bad experience and got psychosis then hope you get better and don't do it anymore. Most simply don't have that experience. Recommendation is start slow, not go to a 10 day meditation retreat. That's like choosing to run a marathon when you barely walk. If you're meditating for hours which is highly unlikely, do it with a teacher. Most do it for 15 minutes. You're not developing acute psychosis in 15 minutes

Most of your arguments are irrational. There's studies proving it improves thyroid function, lowers cortisol, raises dopamine and gaba. It activates the parasympathetic nervous system through the vagus nerve. You know bowel movements activate the vagus nerve? I'm sure you can find a case of psychosis from bowel movements if you try hard enough. Should we hold them now?

Drinking water can be a stressor if it's from the wrong source. Breathing from your mouth instead of your nose can have adverse effects on jaw structure and function. Exercise can age you depending on how much and what kind. If you chew food the wrong way you can choke. Should you just not drink water, breath, exercise, or eat? Meditation is simply focusing on one thing in a calm way while paying attention to thoughts/emotions. You do that while walking, eating, breathing, exercising, writing, playing an instrument or sport, having sex. You do it everyday without awareness. Meditation is a more direct way that lets you do it with awareness. It's the perfect means to accessing "flow"

 

[Cloudhands]

My theory is that people with high seritonin and low MAO activity end up having psychotic episodes if they meditate too much. But these people were likely pretty messed up to begin with. Theyll have this authoritative attitude, then meditate and believe theyve found some kind of spiritual enlightenment, or just have a full on psychotic break. These are usually the same people who cant handle psychedelics, and many of them are people who fast as well. They usually have low glycogen stores, are hypometabolic and have authoritative attitudes. Personally, ive found meditation helpful, it makes me feel "fresh" after, and theres tons of literature supporting meditation and mindfulness. Ive seen studies that talk about it increasing DHEA levels, increasing the cortical surface area, reducing lactate levels, pgc1a upregulation etc. Everytime i do it i feel good. It doesnt make me psychotic, but sure it could for some people. Its helped me so much i wouldnt want this post to discourage people from expirimenting with it at their own risk lol. Thats my deal :) wether or not what someone does is "good meditation" is debatable. Theres many different kinds, and most of them are helpful for most people most of the time, with exceptions.

 

[Cloudhands]

Listen it's not moot. You're not going to get psychosis with 5 minutes of meditation. If you had a bad experience and got psychosis then hope you get better and don't do it anymore. Most simply don't have that experience. Recommendation is start slow, not go to a 10 day meditation retreat. That's like choosing to run a marathon when you barely walk. If you're meditating for hours which is highly unlikely, do it with a teacher. Most do it for 15 minutes. You're not developing acute psychosis in 15 minutes

Most of your arguments are irrational. There's studies proving it improves thyroid function, lowers cortisol, raises dopamine and gaba. It activates the parasympathetic nervous system through the vagus nerve. You know bowel movements activate the vagus nerve? I'm sure you can find a case of psychosis from bowel movements if you try hard enough. Should we hold them now?

Drinking water can be a stressor if it's from the wrong source. Breathing from your mouth instead of your nose can have adverse effects on jaw structure and function. Exercise can age you depending on how much and what kind. If you chew food the wrong way you can choke. Should you just not drink water, breath, exercise, or eat? Meditation is simply focusing on one thing in a calm way while paying attention to thoughts/emotions. You do that while walking, eating, breathing, exercising, writing, playing an instrument or sport, having sex. You do it everyday without awareness. Meditation is a more direct way that lets you do it with awareness. It's the perfect means to accessing "flow"

Cool how none of the horomonal and neurological benefits we mentioned overlap, increasing this thread to an even more diverse list of all of the awesome benefits of meditation

 

[AlexR]

Listen it's not moot. You're not going to get psychosis with 5 minutes of meditation. If you had a bad experience and got psychosis then hope you get better and don't do it anymore. Most simply don't have that experience. Recommendation is start slow, not go to a 10 day meditation retreat. That's like choosing to run a marathon when you barely walk. If you're meditating for hours which is highly unlikely, do it with a teacher. Most do it for 15 minutes. You're not developing acute psychosis in 15 minutes

Most of your arguments are irrational. There's studies proving it improves thyroid function, lowers cortisol, raises dopamine and gaba. It activates the parasympathetic nervous system through the vagus nerve. You know bowel movements activate the vagus nerve? I'm sure you can find a case of psychosis from bowel movements if you try hard enough. Should we hold them now?

Drinking water can be a stressor if it's from the wrong source. Breathing from your mouth instead of your nose can have adverse effects on jaw structure and function. Exercise can age you depending on how much and what kind. If you chew food the wrong way you can choke. Should you just not drink water, breath, exercise, or eat? Meditation is simply focusing on one thing in a calm way while paying attention to thoughts/emotions. You do that while walking, eating, breathing, exercising, writing, playing an instrument or sport, having sex. You do it everyday without awareness. Meditation is a more direct way that lets you do it with awareness. It's the perfect means to accessing "flow"

None of those things are comparable at all. Also, relaxation will induce all those changes too. Meditation is applying your brain in a way that takes advantage of its inherent properties and it is proven that it can cause serious adverse reactions. Just in this thread alone, other people have admitted multiple times that it creates negative effects in them or in others, and those effects can be extremely dangerous. The brain is simply too complex to be manipulated in the way that meditation does as it is too unpredictable when someone will develop full-blown psychosis or be fine. I have seen far too many people ruin their lives because of this and is the reason I will never do it. Even the people who claim they get benefits seem to be experiencing negative effects and act very strange after.

 

[AlexR]

My theory is that people with high seritonin and low MAO activity end up having psychotic episodes if they meditate too much. But these people were likely pretty messed up to begin with. Theyll have this authoritative attitude, then meditate and believe theyve found some kind of spiritual enlightenment, or just have a full on psychotic break. These are usually the same people who cant handle psychedelics, and many of them are people who fast as well. They usually have low glycogen stores, are hypometabolic and have authoritative attitudes. Personally, ive found meditation helpful, it makes me feel "fresh" after, and theres tons of literature supporting meditation and mindfulness. Ive seen studies that talk about it increasing DHEA levels, increasing the cortical surface area, reducing lactate levels, pgc1a upregulation etc. Everytime i do it i feel good. It doesnt make me psychotic, but sure it could for some people. Its helped me so much i wouldnt want this post to discourage people from expirimenting with it at their own risk lol. Thats my deal :) wether or not what someone does is "good meditation" is debatable. Theres many different kinds, and most of them are helpful for most people most of the time, with exceptions.

That is already disproven by the study. Half of the people had no issues before starting and still developed psychosis. Also, people who are told to meditate are generally unhealthy people who are told it can help them, so it doesn't make sense why the people in this thread are saying that unhealthy people are the ones at risk. Yeah, that's the point. Finally, all of those benefits can be experienced simply through lowering stress and relaxation. Knowing that, it is extremely irresponsible and unethical to recommend meditation to people when millions of other stress relieving activities exist. Why do the one that is proven to cause psychosis?

 

[dhtsupreme]

If I'm honest I think it's you that has/had psychosis and high serotonin. Don't do it then and start really applying Dr. Peat's principles. Don't use the forum, read his articles. And stop telling other people to think like you. There's too many it works for and too little that suffer from it. Science shows it's more effective than ineffective. More beneficial than harmful. If the practice was harmful it wouldn't have existed for 1000's of years until today for science to uncover more about how good it is. It would have been lost in history. It works for me and many others here on the forum

All those things I mentioned are comparable. If you tried some of them yourself, you'd find many relationships between them. Many use meditation to enhance those activities and vice versa. I'm not even trying to convince you anymore. I'm providing perspective for those that want to try it and aren't sure. Like riding a bicycle you start with tricycles like a kid and move up. The process is a marathon and will never be a cure all

 

[Cloudhands]

That is already disproven by the study. Half of the people had no issues before starting and still developed psychosis. Also, people who are told to meditate are generally unhealthy people who are told it can help them, so it doesn't make sense why the people in this thread are saying that unhealthy people are the ones at risk. Yeah, that's the point. Finally, all of those benefits can be experienced simply through lowering stress and relaxation. Knowing that, it is extremely irresponsible and unethical to recommend meditation to people when millions of other stress relieving activities exist. Why do the one that is proven to cause psychosis?

That is already disproven by the study. Half of the people had no issues before starting and still developed psychosis. Also, people who are told to meditate are generally unhealthy people who are told it can help them, so it doesn't make sense why the people in this thread are saying that unhealthy people are the ones at risk. Yeah, that's the point. Finally, all of those benefits can be experienced simply through lowering stress and relaxation. Knowing that, it is extremely irresponsible and unethical to recommend meditation to people when millions of other stress relieving activities exist. Why do the one that is proven to cause psychosis?

I dont think meditation is just one activity. There are many forms of it, all which tend to be relaxing/stress relieving activities. Its symantically abstract. Painting, like ray peat does, could be considered a mindfulness meditation. Focus on breath, exercising, focusing on thoughts. Simply finding examples of people doing what they called meditation and then experiencing psychosis just goes to show there was something mechanically different than those who dont experience psychosis. Maybe they meditated differently? Maybe they had predisposition to psychosis? Maybe they did it too much (which ive seen is most often the case)? The blanket statement "Meditation Is a Psychological Stressor and Should Not Be Recommended" just sounds so fearful and sounds like it came from someone whos never had success with meditation themselves. Its a simple, gentle exercise, and to think that someone could experience psychosis from a doing a mild amount of chi kung is laughable to anyone who practices it. Any amount of nerds in lab coats and analyze any amount of "case reports" of meditation and create a report of its potential dangers, but its nothing new to those who are experienced, therell always be those who overdo something. And to address the notion that its usually reccomended to people who have mental troubles, (im paraphrasing you), so why reccomend it at all? Well usually it helps. Actually, when done correctly it RARELY ever goes wrong. You can quote your study, and bring up some case report of people at a retreat etc, but most people do well with quality meditation and thats that. You, or anyone else, doesnt HAVE to believe me, i couldnt care less, im just putting my 2cents out there because i think meditation is awesome and ive only seen it help basically everyone i know whos tried it.

 

[AlexR]

If I'm honest I think it's you that has/had psychosis and high serotonin. Don't do it then and start really applying Dr. Peat's principles. Don't use the forum, read his articles. And stop telling other people to think like you. There's too many it works for and too little that suffer from it. Science shows it's more effective than ineffective. More beneficial than harmful. If the practice was harmful it wouldn't have existed for 1000's of years until today for science to uncover more about how good it is. It would have been lost in history. It works for me and many others here on the forum

All those things I mentioned are comparable. If you tried some of them yourself, you'd find many relationships between them. Many use meditation to enhance those activities and vice versa. I'm not even trying to convince you anymore. I'm providing perspective for those that want to try it and aren't sure. Like riding a bicycle you start with tricycles like a kid and move up. The process is a marathon and will never be a cure all

I love how you assume that I must have gone through meditation-induced psychosis. When did I ever say I did? I became deeply skeptical of meditation after seeing many people get destroyed by it and decided to research more. In my research, and after having multiple people contact me in my past business to fix themselves of the serious damages they received from meditating, I discovered that meditation-induced psychosis is a very common phenomena and is completely brushed under the rug. This is exactly the same case with the irresponsible recommendation of psychedelics to resolve trauma or to "discover" yourself, and when people are irreversibly harmed, their experiences are ignored and not looked into more. Also, "science" does not say anything. It is a method for discovering truth, not a religion that dictates what is right and what is wrong. Cultures with history of meditation acknowledge that there are serious negative effects, they just don't care and chalk it up to some spiritual mumbo jumbo nonsense. Easy to explain something away when you can just blame it on demons or the energy of the universe and brush it under the rug.

 

[AlexR]

I dont think meditation is just one activity. There are many forms of it, all which tend to be relaxing/stress relieving activities. Its symantically abstract. Painting, like ray peat does, could be considered a mindfulness meditation. Focus on breath, exercising, focusing on thoughts. Simply finding examples of people doing what they called meditation and then experiencing psychosis just goes to show there was something mechanically different than those who dont experience psychosis. Maybe they meditated differently? Maybe they had predisposition to psychosis? Maybe they did it too much (which ive seen is most often the case)? The blanket statement "Meditation Is a Psychological Stressor and Should Not Be Recommended" just sounds so fearful and sounds like it came from someone whos never had success with meditation themselves. Its a simple, gentle exercise, and to think that someone could experience psychosis from a doing a mild amount of chi kung is laughable to anyone who practices it. Any amount of nerds in lab coats and analyze any amount of "case reports" of meditation and create a report of its potential dangers, but its nothing new to those who are experienced, therell always be those who overdo something. And to address the notion that its usually reccomended to people who have mental troubles, (im paraphrasing you), so why reccomend it at all? Well usually it helps. Actually, when done correctly it RARELY ever goes wrong. You can quote your study, and bring up some case report of people at a retreat etc, but most people do well with quality meditation and thats that. You, or anyone else, doesnt HAVE to believe me, i couldnt care less, im just putting my 2cents out there because i think meditation is awesome and ive only seen it help basically everyone i know whos tried it.

You constantly contradict yourself. You've already said that your "master" has experience with people developing psychosis and knows how to deal with it since it happens frequently enough, but now you say it's laughable that it can ever happen. What is laughable is how certain you are that nothing can ever go wrong with manipulating your mind in a way that it would never be unless you were taught the technique. Painting is nothing like meditation. It is active and involves creativity and thought, whereas a lot of meditations are passive and involve observations or simple elementary states and emotions that require being held for long periods of time. A lot of meditations exploit the brain and its capaibilities and that is where I believe the problems arise.

 

[dhtsupreme]

I love how you assume that I must have gone through meditation-induced psychosis. When did I ever say I did? I became deeply skeptical of meditation after seeing many people get destroyed by it and decided to research more. In my research, and after having multiple people contact me in my past business to fix themselves of the serious damages they received from meditating, I discovered that meditation-induced psychosis is a very common phenomena and is completely brushed under the rug. This is exactly the same case with the irresponsible recommendation of psychedelics to resolve trauma or to "discover" yourself, and when people are irreversibly harmed, their experiences are ignored and not looked into more. Also, "science" does not say anything. It is a method for discovering truth, not a religion that dictates what is right and what is wrong. Cultures with history of meditation acknowledge that there are serious negative effects, they just don't care and chalk it up to some spiritual mumbo jumbo nonsense. Easy to explain something away when you can just blame it on demons or the energy of the universe and brush it under the rug.

It's been used to help people suffering from psychosis

 

[Cloudhands]

You constantly contradict yourself. You've already said that your "master" has experience with people developing psychosis and knows how to deal with it since it happens frequently enough, but now you say it's laughable that it can ever happen. What is laughable is how certain you are that nothing can ever go wrong with manipulating your mind in a way that it would never be unless you were taught the technique. Painting is nothing like meditation. It is active and involves creativity and thought, whereas a lot of meditations are passive and involve observations or simple elementary states and emotions that require being held for long periods of time. A lot of meditations exploit the brain and its capaibilities and that is where I believe the problems arise.

Its laughable that someone doing a mild amount of chi kung would experience this. Chi kung isnt isnt exploitative of the brain or its capabilities, its literally just focusing on breath and movement while doing some simple movement. The only people known at my practice to have psychosis were neyrotic people who did way too much of the same exercise over and over. Idk what you think meditation is, since you call it exploitation of the brain, what exactly does that entail because it doesnt really mean anything to me lol

 

[AlexR]

It's been used to help people suffering from psychosis

So have lobotomies

 

[Cloudhands]

And if you say that painting is nothing like meditation, than id venture to say you know not what proper meditation is.

 

[AlexR]

My sifu has spoken about something called chi kung psychosis which i believe is in the chinese DSM

Its laughable that someone doing a mild amount of chi kung would experience this.

lmao

 

[AlexR]

The Dark Knight of the Soul

For some, meditation has become more curse than cure. Willoughby Britton wants to know why.

www.theatlantic.com

Buddhist Meditation and the Dark Night of the Soul

A "dark night" in this case is a disturbing or damaging meditation experience. How do these happen?

www.learnreligions.com

It's not even controversial that meditation can destroy your mind. It's even acknowledged by major religions that its a thing that happens and you need to meditate more (lol) to get yourself out of it. Redditors even know of people killing themselves over it and this is all from a quick 10 second google search. I wonder how many more meditation horror stories exist that are actively ignored and covered up.