Multi Racial Society - The Biggest Stressor Of Them All?

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
You are constantly referencing populations that have no relation to your claims. Mexicans? Chileans? Who cares? You think Baltics are 15 % middle eastern. What's the deal?

Purity has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. Scandinavians are racially homogenous to the point where each county forms a distinct genetic cluster. So are many other European countries (see the pics that were shared in last page). Whether you want to call these clusters pure or impure is irrelevant sentimentalist argumentation.
You said: "monoracial as it gets when it comes to native populations of these countries."
Happens that native populations of these countries are more related to populations from other locations. And that even Vikings have lots of mixtures and origins even from different continents, at their epoch.

Genetic cluster? Also occurs that people from the same cluster are as different from people from a different cluster.
 

TheSir

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
1,952
You said: "monoracial as it gets when it comes to native populations of these countries."
Happens that native populations of these countries are more related to populations from other locations. And that even Vikings have lots of mixtures and origins even from different continents, at their epoch.
Once again, you are talking about purity, which has nothing do with the subject. All genetic clusters are the results of admixture from various locations. Yet each cluster is a unique combination of admixture. This is what defines a genetic cluster as a distinct race.
 
Last edited:

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
Again, @TheSir Genetic cluster? Also occurs that people from the same cluster are as different from people from a different cluster.

"Furthermore, recent research on regional and racial variance in mtDNA (Excoffier and coworkers, 1992), a traditional marker for human racial groupings, shows a higher proportion of variance within than across racial categories."
"It no longer makes sense to adhere to arbitrary racial categories, or to expect that the next genetic study will provide the key to racial classification."
Error - Cookies Turned Off
 

TheSir

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
1,952
All of this is fallacious in light of genetic clustering. Let this picture I once drew illustrate the error:

racial fallacy.png

Where you are right is that many traditional ways of defining races are arbitrary and erroneous. Yet the raw data doesn't lie: genetic clusters exist. And they represent everything we have traditionally viewed to be 'race'.
 
Last edited:

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
All of this is fallacious in light of genetic clustering. Let this picture I once drew illustrate the error:

View attachment 20081

Where you are right is that many traditional ways of defining races are arbitrary and erroneous. Yet the raw data doesn't lie: genetic clusters exist. And they represent everything we have traditionally viewed to be 'race'.
Where is the evidence?
Your clustering to define race is weak and vulnerable, it depends on unscientific hypothesis to exist. Depends on hypothesis created by supremacists and eugenicists to happen.

"This failure of the clustering of local populations into biologically meaningful "races" based on a few clear genetic differences is not confined to the human species. Zoologists long ago gave up the category of "race" for dividing up groups of animal populations within a species, because so many of these races turned out to be based on only one or two genes so that two animals born in the same litter could belong to different "races."
Confusions About Human Races

“data also show that any two individuals within a particular population are as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world”
Genetic Similarities Within and Between Human Populations

Genetic Similarities Within and Between Human Populations
 

TheSir

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
1,952
Where is the evidence?
On page 2.
Your clustering to define race is weak and vulnerable, it depends on unscientific hypothesis to exist.
Doubt that. Feel free to explain why you think so.
"This failure of the clustering of local populations into biologically meaningful "races" based on a few clear genetic differences is not confined to the human species. Zoologists long ago gave up the category of "race" for dividing up groups of animal populations within a species, because so many of these races turned out to be based on only one or two genes so that two animals born in the same litter could belong to different "races."
Read the whole paragraph in the text you pasted this from. It deals with the classical racial categories, which I agreed are arbitrary. As such, this paste is irrelevant to the subject.
“data also show that any two individuals within a particular population are as different genetically as any two people selected from any two populations in the world”
I already debunked this fallacy in my previous post -- stop trying to push it.
 

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
Especially in the context, "Categorize people and racism", of the OP and that he wrote and desired, are two know characteristics of authoritharianism, of oppressive governments and of fascism.
I never cared about "racism" until recently, God, dealing with this liberal/ nazi thing can be stressful.
@pro marker

The least violent city, by far in homicide rate, and the richest city of Brazil is the most diverse in what you would call "racially".
 
Last edited:

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
@TheSir Your image is your evidence? If so nonsense. You presented no evidence at all.

You want more evidences to understand why your clustering reasoning is vulnerable and weak? Its simple.
Error - Cookies Turned Off
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20201104-175714~2.png
    Screenshot_20201104-175714~2.png
    28.4 KB · Views: 18
  • Screenshot_20201104-175451~2.png
    Screenshot_20201104-175451~2.png
    40.5 KB · Views: 14

TheSir

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
1,952
Your image debunked it? If so nonsense. No evidence presented at all.
As I showed, the premise is fallacious. No further evidence needed. When an argument fails, it fails.

If Matheus refuses to understand why his argument failed, there is little I can help him with.

Its simple.
Clearly you are making it too simple, because those few short sentences hardly convey any meaning at all. Are you just throwing random stuff at me and hoping that something sticks? You are furiously googling for possible refutations to my arguments, aren't you?
 

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
The premise is fallacious. No further evidence needed. When an argument fails, it fails.

If Matheus refuses to understand why his argument fails, there is little I can help him with.



Clearly you are making it too simple, because those short few sentences hardly convey any meaning at all. Are you just throwing random stuff at me and hoping that something sticks? You are furiously googling for possible refutations to my arguments, aren't you?
Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
I only presented evidences, and one argument to why your clustering to define race is pathetic. You only have eugenicist reasoning, and some hypothesis based on it. You only have eugenicists scientists on your side to defend you. This clustering to define race is so pathetic that two twins can be of different "races" e.e
Sentences? Take a look at the study.

There's one race in the Human race. Lets take a look at how PUFA and radiation from bombings affect your races, and turn them in another "race"
 

TheSir

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
1,952
I only presented evidences,
I'll humor you: if you look at the text you shared, it agrees that what I am doing is a valid thing to do: "They would form nice three clusters and you'd be free to call them races." However, I think this is not the conclusion you would want me to draw from these texts you shared, hence the pictures can only be called useless. Or what would you say?
and one argument to why your clustering to define race is pathetic.
Actually you have not made a single argument. You have merely linked to a few loosely relevant sources. What's worse, you don't seem to fully understand what your sources are even arguing for.
You only have eugenicist reasoning, and some hypothesis based on it. You only have eugenicists scientists on your side to defend you.
False. You lie like a commu -- oh wait.

Even if it was true, what would it matter? Science is science, regardless of who carries it out. You are one biased monkey.
 

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
I'll humor you: if you look at the text you shared, it agrees that what I am doing is a valid thing to do: "They would form nice three clusters and you'd be free to call them races." However, I think this is not the conclusion you would want me to draw from these texts you shared, hence the pictures can only be called useless. Or what would you say?
And then everyone could be considered a Maori Race from some cluster. And then every European could be considered a Maori mixed with an Incan. Why you cut this part in the context?
 

TheSir

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
1,952
And then everyone could be considered a Maori Race from some cluster. And then every European could be considered a Maori mixed with an Incan. Why you cut this part in the context?
Not seeing anything that states such, sorry. You are either withholding something or misunderstanding what is being said.

Besides, I don't think it would make any difference. The clusters exist independently of what you define as the roots of the clusters. The issue would be a mostly semantic one.
 
Last edited:

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
Not seeing anything that states such, sorry. You are either withholding something or misunderstanding what is being said.
Then read the article its clearly.

"Therefore, their allele
frequencies are more highly correlated, a pattern that is
commonly manifest as a CLINE of allele frequencies. The
occurrence of such clines is often offered as evidence that
individuals cannot be allocated into genetic clusters
"
"Accordingly,
membership in a genetically inferred cluster does not
mean that all members of the cluster necessarily have a
similar genetic composition."
Deconstructing the relationship between genetics and race | Nature Reviews Genetics

About the leading researchers who are the principals to equate cluster to race:
"Wade's hereditarianism depends centrally on a view of races as genetically inscribed and—as his misrepresentation of population genomics research suggests—detectible in the “correspondence” between cluster and geography, which is but a proxy for cluster and race."

Then adds this, and you have a good picture:

"This failure of the clustering of local populations into biologically meaningful "races" based on a few clear genetic differences is not confined to the human species. Zoologists long ago gave up the category of "race" for dividing up groups of animal populations within a species, because so many of these races turned out to be based on only one or two genes so that two animals born in the same litter could belong to different "races."
Confusions About Human Races
 
Last edited:

lvysaur

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
2,292
You are constantly referencing populations that have no relation to your claims. Mexicans? Chileans? Who cares?
They're plenty relevant, they're the same as Europeans. A mixed race population that homogenized, only difference is that with Chile it was happening 300 years ago, and with Europeans it was happening 3000 years ago. 3 millennia still isn't enough to breed out the mixed genetic signatures.
You think no European country is racially homogenous despite genetic clustering showing otherwise. What's the deal with that?
Because homogeneity isn't race.

Chileans are a multiracial people made up of Spaniards and Americans. The Spaniards conquered the Americans.
Modern Europeans are a multiracial people made up of Indigenous Europeans, Anatolians, and Aryans. The Aryans conquered both of the former.

An example of a heterogeneous people would be Ecuadorians. Both Chileans and Ecuadorians are mixed, but in Ecuador there are large differences between the ancestry share of different individuals--AKA heterogeneous. In Chile this difference is vastly reduced, AKA homogeneous. Both still mixed race.

My point is that homogeneity and mixed status have nothing to do with one another. A population can be racially mixed, but have that mixture be homogeneous and uniformly distributed throughout the population. Such as in Chileans, or, modern European ethnicities.
MzsMJRF.png
 
Last edited:

lvysaur

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
2,292
All genetic clusters are the results of admixture from various locations. Yet each cluster is a unique combination of admixture.
This is some cope, because each individual is also a unique combination of admixture, and there are endless amounts of samples which fill in the spaces between different ethnic groups. So again, the definition comes back to "this thing is an ethnicity/race because people feel like it is, but also race ISN'T a social construct because that hurts my feelings".

Swedes and Finns might be distinct ethnicities, but if a magical land of mixed Fennoswedes appears, suddenly they're just a mixed continuum despite none of their parent populations changing. As per your logic.

Also, Sardinians aren't European by your logic. Even though they're the most genetically western population in Europe.

Global_genetic_distances_map.jpg


Your definition for a "cluster" is meaningless because these clusters are constantly changing through time, varying wildly in the order of only a few centuries.

England's genetic cluster after the Norman invasion would have looked different from pure Anglo-Saxon England, which would have looked different from Celtic pre-Anglo England, which would have looked different from England before the Aryan invasion, which differed from England before the Anatolian migration, which in turn differed from before Near-Eastern upper-Paleolithic humans mixed with extant Europeans 15,000 years ago.

Is it easier to say that British people are a complete ethnic mishmash of Aurignacian/Solutrean/Cheddar/Celtic/Anglo/Saxon/Norman/Roman/Gaulish/Pictish/Viking/Pakistani/Caribbean etc.?

Or is it easier to look into their DNA, study it quantitatively, and come up with stretches of DNA that either are or aren't shared with other modern ethnic groups?

The former method gives us a never-ending infinitely convoluted mess of irrelevant "ethnicities", while the latter gives us that British DNA is fundamentally 65% European, and 35% Middle Eastern (with respect to 10,000 years ago). No need to give every transient mutt in between a separate name, the genes are what matter.
 
Last edited:
OP
P

pro marker

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Messages
240
Especially in the context, "Categorize people and racism", of the OP and that he wrote and desired, are two know characteristics of authoritharianism, of oppressive governments and of fascism.
I never cared about "racism" until recently, God, dealing with this liberal/ nazi thing can be stressful.
@pro marker

The least violent city, by far in homicide rate, and the richest city of Brazil is the most diverse in what you would call "racially".

i dont care about racism either. i dont care about races much. i just meant people who look to different from me. people i cant recognise as my own kind.
i dont live in brazil. i live in a place that had no crime at all untill multiple races moved in and now its more dangerous than many african countries. i know of 7 girls who have been raped by immigrants. who the hell even knows more than a couple of people who have been raped? the rape rates are insane. i guess you really must live here to believe it.




this thread also begs another question, why are we all so obsessed with not being racist. i never considered racism a thing, its just natural to me. but i guess that is because i grew up isolated and away from mass media and pop culture. the midwits meme really is true... why cant intelligent people just accept that there are different races? an animal living in snow does not act the same as a similar animal living in the desert.


This is some cope, because each individual is also a unique combination of admixture, and there are endless amounts of samples which fill in the spaces between different ethnic groups. So again, the definition comes back to "this thing is an ethnicity/race because people feel like it is, but also race ISN'T a social construct because that hurts my feelings".

Swedes and Finns might be distinct ethnicities, but if a magical land of mixed Fennoswedes appears, suddenly they're just a mixed continuum despite none of their parent populations changing. As per your logic.

Also, Sardinians aren't European by your logic. Even though they're the most genetically western population in Europe.

Global_genetic_distances_map.jpg


Your definition for a "cluster" is meaningless because these clusters are constantly changing through time, varying wildly in the order of only a few centuries.

England's genetic cluster after the Norman invasion would have looked different from pure Anglo-Saxon England, which would have looked different from Celtic pre-Anglo England, which would have looked different from England before the Aryan invasion, which differed from England before the Anatolian migration, which in turn differed from before Near-Eastern upper-Paleolithic humans mixed with extant Europeans 15,000 years ago.

Is it easier to say that British people are a complete ethnic mishmash of Aurignacian/Solutrean/Cheddar/Celtic/Anglo/Saxon/Norman/Roman/Gaulish/Pictish/Viking/Pakistani/Caribbean etc.?

Or is it easier to look into their DNA, study it quantitatively, and come up with stretches of DNA that either are or aren't shared with other modern ethnic groups?

The former method gives us a never-ending infinitely convoluted mess of irrelevant "ethnicities", while the latter gives us that British DNA is fundamentally 65% European, and 35% Middle Eastern (with respect to 10,000 years ago). No need to give every transient mutt in between a separate name, the genes are what matter.


i have nothing to add to any of this due to my lac of knowledge, but i will tell you that i can most of the time tell finns and swedes apart by looks.
 

MatheusPN

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2017
Messages
547
Location
Brazil
i dont care about racism either. i dont care about races much. i just meant people who look to different from me. people i cant recognise as my own kind.
i dont live in brazil. i live in a place that had no crime at all untill multiple races moved in and now its more dangerous than many african countries. i know of 7 girls who have been raped by immigrants. who the hell even knows more than a couple of people who have been raped? the rape rates are insane. i guess you really must live here to believe it.




this thread also begs another question, why are we all so obsessed with not being racist. i never considered racism a thing, its just natural to me. but i guess that is because i grew up isolated and away from mass media and pop culture. the midwits meme really is true... why cant intelligent people just accept that there are different races? an animal living in snow does not act the same as a similar animal living in the desert.





i have nothing to add to any of this due to my lac of knowledge, but i will tell you that i can most of the time tell finns and swedes apart by looks.
Because the idea of different races started with supremacists. Because, anyone correct me if Im not right, the Latin language and the Egypt writings of the same period, hadn't a word to describe ppl race or even their color. The Roman empire was what you would call, very multi-"racial".

And because we are a single race, the human race.

This is what happens when you allow KKK members, or people from a country destroyed by the US imperialism, like Lybia, which now is dominated by terrorists thanks to US, in your country without selection. This is what happens when your country prefer to have those people utilized by the rulling class, and also helped to **** them in their country, than to better the living conditions in their country.
The fault is on who destroyed the lives of those ppl.
The fault is on who helped to destroy countires like Lybia. Global Capitalism is the most responsible.

Its good for the big corporations and for the ruling class to have low paying hiring, to increase competition between the working class, to divide and conquer by bringing extremists to a liberal country.

They create the problem. CIA funding and improving of terrorists. Bombarding countries. NAFTA eTC.
And then they profit from the misery.
And then comes someone, like you apparently, and put the fault on the people who were ****88 by the imperialists, and consequently, you assist them by furthering the divide and conquer talk.
 
Last edited:

lvysaur

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
2,292
i have nothing to add to any of this due to my lac of knowledge, but i will tell you that i can most of the time tell finns and swedes apart by looks.
I was only using it as an example, the looks don't matter in theory. Most westerners would consider a Papuan and an African to both be "black", even though they are the two most genetically divergent people on earth. In other words, "black people" are more related to "white people" than to other "black people"

In practice the looks tend to correlate, for the simple fact that the people who stay in one area and mix with each other, not only mix their genetic ancestry, but their entire genome (including the genes which determine eye color, nose shape, etc)

You can probably tell Finns apart at the population level (a group of Finns looks different from a group of Swedes, same thing for a group of Russians vs. Irish), but the individual level gets shaky (many individual Finns can pass as French, some individual Ukrainians can pass as Indian, etc).

Also there are zones of transition, western Finland has some Swedish mixture and eastern Sweden has some Finnish mixture.

This is what happens when you allow KKK members, or people from a country destroyed by the US imperialism, like Lybia, which now is dominated by terrorists thanks to US, in your country without selection.
The fault is on who destroyed the lives of those ppl.
Since you're so gracious to me, I will do the same, you're correct here

"it's only white countries getting immigrants" is obviously due to the fact that the wealth of those "non-white" countries was taken by the "white" countries. Either through 1800s colonialism or 1990s war in the Middle East creating the refugee crisis. Every action has a reaction.

If there was no reason to go there, they wouldn't go there. One must ask themselves why people in Iraq weren't itching to boat to Italy back in the 1200s. Or even the 1980s.
 
Last edited:
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom