Need Help With Androsterone

[Peaterpeater]

I have been using Tyromax approximately 2.5 grains (5 divided doses) along with progest-e for many months now. I have recently purchased and tried Androsterone with negative results. Very shortly after rubbing a few drops of Androsterone on my wrists, I get extremely tired & sleepy; my pulse also drops from mid 60's to upper 50's. I have never had my pulse go below 60 until now; with that low of a pulse I feel like a complete wreck. I accomplish next to nothing most of the day. In addition to the lowered pulse, I began to feel some pain/soreness/weakness that I can only describe as an arthritic like pain in my arms, upper shoulders and neck. I was worried that maybe I was getting symptoms of toxic thyroid/thyroid excess. I dropped the Androsterone and lowered my Tyromax to 2 grains and the next day the pain was mostly gone but energy was still very low. I was hoping to use Androsterone to reduce aromatase activity in my body. Before I became hypothyroid (several years ago) I was able to use Dhea with success (dramatic increase in androgens). After hypothyroid, Dhea (even in small amounts 5mg) has consistently created excess estrogen (very painful breasts). Haidut, can you please possibly guide me on how to use Androsterone to increase androgens and pulse? I would love to use Androsterone instead of NDT but if it continues to make me sleepy & useless by decreasing my pulse; then it won't be possible. I also would like to be able to use Dhea but I'm terrified of creating more estrogen in my body. Any recommendations would be very much appreciated. (I'm willing to try out anything to see if it will help).

 

[milk_lover]

@haidut link him so he can see this.

I contacted Dr. Peat a lot about DHEA. He thinks lack of thyroid might turn excess to estrogen. He also thinks pregnenolone/progesterone helps. Aspirin is another thing you can try. Vitamin E or vitamin A/D/K2 when administered along with DHEA might also help against the conversion. If I take pregnenolone and DHEA alone (5mg each), I get agitated. I take little aspirin and little niacinamide, no much agitation. I think focusing on improving thyroid with coconut oil, avoiding PUFA, reducing serotonin and endotoxin, and drinking milk/calcium is very reasonable approach to get benefits from DHEA.

 

[Peaterpeater]

@ Haidut

I have been using Tyromax approximately 2.5 grains (5 divided doses) along with progest-e for many months now. I have recently purchased and tried Androsterone with negative results. Very shortly after rubbing a few drops of Androsterone on my wrists, I get extremely tired & sleepy; my pulse also drops from mid 60's to upper 50's. I have never had my pulse go below 60 until now; with that low of a pulse I feel like a complete wreck. I accomplish next to nothing most of the day. In addition to the lowered pulse, I began to feel some pain/soreness/weakness that I can only describe as an arthritic like pain in my arms, upper shoulders and neck. I was worried that maybe I was getting symptoms of toxic thyroid/thyroid excess. I dropped the Androsterone and lowered my Tyromax to 2 grains and the next day the pain was mostly gone but energy was still very low. I was hoping to use Androsterone to reduce aromatase activity in my body. Before I became hypothyroid (several years ago) I was able to use Dhea with success (dramatic increase in androgens). After hypothyroid, Dhea (even in small amounts 5mg) has consistently created excess estrogen (very painful breasts). Haidut, can you please possibly guide me on how to use Androsterone to increase androgens and pulse? I would love to use Androsterone instead of NDT but if it continues to make me sleepy & useless by decreasing my pulse; then it won't be possible. I also would like to be able to use Dhea but I'm terrified of creating more estrogen in my body. Any recommendations would be very much appreciated. (I'm willing to try out anything to see if it will help).

Thank you milk_lover, those are good recommendations. I wish I could drink milk, it causes loose stools...

 

[haidut]

@ Haidut

I have been using Tyromax approximately 2.5 grains (5 divided doses) along with progest-e for many months now. I have recently purchased and tried Androsterone with negative results. Very shortly after rubbing a few drops of Androsterone on my wrists, I get extremely tired & sleepy; my pulse also drops from mid 60's to upper 50's. I have never had my pulse go below 60 until now; with that low of a pulse I feel like a complete wreck. I accomplish next to nothing most of the day. In addition to the lowered pulse, I began to feel some pain/soreness/weakness that I can only describe as an arthritic like pain in my arms, upper shoulders and neck. I was worried that maybe I was getting symptoms of toxic thyroid/thyroid excess. I dropped the Androsterone and lowered my Tyromax to 2 grains and the next day the pain was mostly gone but energy was still very low. I was hoping to use Androsterone to reduce aromatase activity in my body. Before I became hypothyroid (several years ago) I was able to use Dhea with success (dramatic increase in androgens). After hypothyroid, Dhea (even in small amounts 5mg) has consistently created excess estrogen (very painful breasts). Haidut, can you please possibly guide me on how to use Androsterone to increase androgens and pulse? I would love to use Androsterone instead of NDT but if it continues to make me sleepy & useless by decreasing my pulse; then it won't be possible. I also would like to be able to use Dhea but I'm terrified of creating more estrogen in my body. Any recommendations would be very much appreciated. (I'm willing to try out anything to see if it will help).

Thank you milk_lover, those are good recommendations. I wish I could drink milk, it causes loose stools...

The joint pain is usually a symptom of lowered estrogen. Maybe you are taking too much androsterone? Androsterone and DHEA in combination should increase tissue androgens and even improve metabolism as DHEA is also thermogenic and thyromimetic. I don't know what the optimal doses are, so you'd have to experiment. Some people reported much better results with pregnenolone + androsterone instead of with DHEA + androsterone. So, you could try that combo as well.

 

[milk_lover]

@ Haidut

I have been using Tyromax approximately 2.5 grains (5 divided doses) along with progest-e for many months now. I have recently purchased and tried Androsterone with negative results. Very shortly after rubbing a few drops of Androsterone on my wrists, I get extremely tired & sleepy; my pulse also drops from mid 60's to upper 50's. I have never had my pulse go below 60 until now; with that low of a pulse I feel like a complete wreck. I accomplish next to nothing most of the day. In addition to the lowered pulse, I began to feel some pain/soreness/weakness that I can only describe as an arthritic like pain in my arms, upper shoulders and neck. I was worried that maybe I was getting symptoms of toxic thyroid/thyroid excess. I dropped the Androsterone and lowered my Tyromax to 2 grains and the next day the pain was mostly gone but energy was still very low. I was hoping to use Androsterone to reduce aromatase activity in my body. Before I became hypothyroid (several years ago) I was able to use Dhea with success (dramatic increase in androgens). After hypothyroid, Dhea (even in small amounts 5mg) has consistently created excess estrogen (very painful breasts). Haidut, can you please possibly guide me on how to use Androsterone to increase androgens and pulse? I would love to use Androsterone instead of NDT but if it continues to make me sleepy & useless by decreasing my pulse; then it won't be possible. I also would like to be able to use Dhea but I'm terrified of creating more estrogen in my body. Any recommendations would be very much appreciated. (I'm willing to try out anything to see if it will help).

Thank you milk_lover, those are good recommendations. I wish I could drink milk, it causes loose stools...

have you tried UHT milk? My mother and sister have trouble with regular milk and I have trouble too sometimes, but UHT milk, even better if organic, don't give us big problems. But this is not the point of the post loool sorry.

 

[Peaterpeater]

The joint pain is usually a symptom of lowered estrogen. Maybe you are taking too much androsterone? Androsterone and DHEA in combination should increase tissue androgens and even improve metabolism as DHEA is also thermogenic and thyromimetic. I don't know what the optimal doses are, so you'd have to experiment. Some people reported much better results with pregnenolone + androsterone instead of with DHEA + androsterone. So, you could try that combo as well.

My latest prolactin test (taken last month) came out to be 8.25 (female) which I thought was pretty good considering it's below 10. The prolactin test I took several months ago was around 13.o; so my tissue estrogen has come down after a few trials of cyproheptadine and loads of progest-e. So are you saying that my estrogen has come down too low causing the joint pain & low pulse after using Androsterone?

If both Dhea and Androsterone are thyromimetic then is it plausible that I would need to reduce the same amount of NDT accordingly? My TSH (o.000001) is already fully suppressed on 2 grains of NDT (without any Dhea/Androsterone).

What do you know about Androsterone's effect on pulse/BP. Is it known to reduce blood pressure? I already have low BP - 90/60 most days. Your help is very much appreciated.

 

[Peaterpeater]

have you tried UHT milk? My mother and sister have trouble with regular milk and I have trouble too sometimes, but UHT milk, even better if organic, don't give us big problems. But this is not the point of the post loool sorry.

Thanks milk_lover, I actually have been staying away from UHT milk (for obvious reasons), but I've become so desperate to drink milk that I think your idea just might work. I'm going to get me some organic UHT milk first thing tomorrow. Thanks again.
Btw, do your know if Peat has mentioned UHT milk to be okay if tolerated?

 

[milk_lover]

Thanks milk_lover, I actually have been staying away from UHT milk (for obvious reasons), but I've become so desperate to drink milk that I think your idea just might work. I'm going to get me some organic UHT milk first thing tomorrow. Thanks again.
Btw, do your know if Peat has mentioned UHT milk to be okay if tolerated?

Yes I emailed him about it. Check it out here https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/ray-peat-email-advice-depository.1035/page-14#post-172179

 

[haidut]

My latest prolactin test (taken last month) came out to be 8.25 (female) which I thought was pretty good considering it's below 10. The prolactin test I took several months ago was around 13.o; so my tissue estrogen has come down after a few trials of cyproheptadine and loads of progest-e. So are you saying that my estrogen has come down too low causing the joint pain & low pulse after using Androsterone?

If both Dhea and Androsterone are thyromimetic then is it plausible that I would need to reduce the same amount of NDT accordingly? My TSH (o.000001) is already fully suppressed on 2 grains of NDT (without any Dhea/Androsterone).

What do you know about Androsterone's effect on pulse/BP. Is it known to reduce blood pressure? I already have low BP - 90/60 most days. Your help is very much appreciated.

The older human studies I posted in the original post said androsterone increases oxygen consumption and lowers cholesterol. In a few people it also raised temps but it was not a consistent effect. So, it is a thyromimetic but probably not a complete thyroid replacement.
I mentioned that low estrogen since joint pain is one of the unmistakable signs of aromatase inhibition and I don't know of any other mechanism or side effect of androsterone that can cause it.

 

[Regina]

The older human studies I posted in the original post said androsterone increases oxygen consumption and lowers cholesterol. In a few people it also raised temps but it was not a consistent effect. So, it is a thyromimetic but probably not a complete thyroid replacement.
I mentioned that low estrogen since joint pain is one of the unmistakable signs of aromatase inhibition and I don't know of any other mechanism or side effect of androsterone that can cause it.

Hi haidut,
Do you know why low estrogen causes joint pain? Thx.

 

[haidut]

Hi haidut,
Do you know why low estrogen causes joint pain? Thx.

I think it is due to the lowered cortisol that goes hand in hand with low estrogen. Glucocorticoid antagonists also have joint pain as a side effect and the reports make it sound like it's the same as the one people get from an AI.

 

[Ritchie]

The joint pain is usually a symptom of lowered estrogen. Maybe you are taking too much androsterone? Androsterone and DHEA in combination should increase tissue androgens and even improve metabolism as DHEA is also thermogenic and thyromimetic. I don't know what the optimal doses are, so you'd have to experiment. Some people reported much better results with pregnenolone + androsterone instead of with DHEA + androsterone. So, you could try that combo as well.

What sort of combination would you suggest in dosage for say androsterone + stressnon?

 

[Regina]

I think it is due to the lowered cortisol that goes hand in hand with low estrogen. Glucocorticoid antagonists also have joint pain as a side effect and the reports make it sound like it's the same as the one people get from an AI.

Cheers.
So far, I am enjoying the experiment of lowering estrogen, cortisol, adrenaline and serotonin concurrent to "therapeutic" K2. Thx!

 

[mirc12354]

The older human studies I posted in the original post said androsterone increases oxygen consumption and lowers cholesterol. In a few people it also raised temps but it was not a consistent effect. So, it is a thyromimetic but probably not a complete thyroid replacement.
I mentioned that low estrogen since joint pain is one of the unmistakable signs of aromatase inhibition and I don't know of any other mechanism or side effect of androsterone that can cause it.

@haidut: Is this product safe to use in people who have cholesterol levels that are on the lower end of normal? What about Pansterone? I am asking this also because I do not really feel much effects from your hormonal supplements (Pansterone, 11-keto DHT), even in high doses, but I have a rather low cholesterol (and TSH under 1, so I guess my thyroid is working reasonably well) and tried using them mainly for high cortisol (also have DHEA-S in the lover third of normal range, even I am 36 years old, so I had high expectations especialy for Pansterone). I do have very good results from your Lapodin and Kuinone tough. So do you think one should aim to increase the cholesterol in ones diet before trying your hormonal products in order to make them work better? And how would you go about raising cholesterol without ingesting a ton of PUFA at the same time - like eating "12 fertile eggs a day"?

 

[haidut]

What sort of combination would you suggest in dosage for say androsterone + stressnon?

If you read through the threads on both StressNon and androsterone you will plentyof fee

@haidut: Is this product safe to use in people who have cholesterol levels that are on the lower end of normal? What about Pansterone? I am asking this also because I do not really feel much effects from your hormonal supplements (Pansterone, 11-keto DHT), even in high doses, but I have a rather low cholesterol (and TSH under 1, so I guess my thyroid is working reasonably well) and tried using them mainly for high cortisol (also have DHEA-S in the lover third of normal range, even I am 36 years old, so I had high expectations especialy for Pansterone). I do have very good results from your Lapodin and Kuinone tough. So do you think one should aim to increase the cholesterol in ones diet before trying your hormonal products in order to make them work better? And how would you go about raising cholesterol without ingesting a ton of PUFA at the same time - like eating "12 fertile eggs a day"?

Low cholesterol could be an issue. Eating fructose and saturated fat are best ways to raise it. Ray said his preferred approach is drinking orange juice.
Pansterone should raise your DHEA-S after about a month of use. Have you tested before/after using the Pansterone?

 

[mirc12354]

If you read through the threads on both StressNon and androsterone you will plentyof fee


Low cholesterol could be an issue. Eating fructose and saturated fat are best ways to raise it. Ray said his preferred approach is drinking orange juice.
Pansterone should raise your DHEA-S after about a month of use. Have you tested before/after using the Pansterone?

I have my before DHEA-S leveles tested. plan to test my after levels any day now. Will report the difference here.
I do eat some saturated fat (3 eggs a day plus some butter and coconut oil) but i get fat if I increase fat too much.
I do drink a glass or two OJ daily but do not want too much liquid in my diet since it makes me sluggish and drops my temps. What about adding pure white sugar like a lot of it- would that do the trick of raising cholesterol (my cholesterol situation is such that total cholesterol is on the lover limit of range but that is mainly because HDL is almost 50 % under lower limit of normal, LDL is in the middle of range).

If one manages to get DHEA-S to the upper range with Pansterone - how long after the discontinuation of it does the marker stay at that level? I know iz is individual I am interested in your experiemce?

 

[haidut]

I have my before DHEA-S leveles tested. plan to test my after levels any day now. Will report the difference here.
I do eat some saturated fat (3 eggs a day plus some butter and coconut oil) but i get fat if I increase fat too much.
I do drink a glass or two OJ daily but do not want too much liquid in my diet since it makes me sluggish and drops my temps. What about adding pure white sugar like a lot of it- would that do the trick of raising cholesterol (my cholesterol situation is such that total cholesterol is on the lover limit of range but that is mainly because HDL is almost 50 % under lower limit of normal, LDL is in the middle of range).

If one manages to get DHEA-S to the upper range with Pansterone - how long after the discontinuation of it does the marker stay at that level? I know iz is individual I am interested in your experiemce?

If the reasons for the low DHEA-S are not corrected (hypothyroidism, insulin resistance, etc) then the levels will likely come down in a month or so after discontinuing supplementation. Extra white sugar should help with cholesterol as well.

 

[sladerunner69]

I dont feel good on androsterone + dhea+ pregneleone. I dont knwo fi I am taking too many anti-estrogen supplements but I feel irritable, not creative, overheated and spaced out. It is hard to concentrate on homework or feel motivated to anything. I also ave a big headache but I think it may stem from sleeping troubles. I am going to stop taking hromonal supplemetns and see if I feel better.

 

[Constatine]

I dont feel good on androsterone + dhea+ pregneleone. I dont knwo fi I am taking too many anti-estrogen supplements but I feel irritable, not creative, overheated and spaced out. It is hard to concentrate on homework or feel motivated to anything. I also ave a big headache but I think it may stem from sleeping troubles. I am going to stop taking hromonal supplemetns and see if I feel better.

I sometimes feel the same way, other times I feel great on it. It might be too many inhibitory neurotransmitters. Androsterone is anti-adrenaline, pro-gaba, dhea is pro gaba, pregneleone seems to block the GABA A receptor but I don't know to what degree. GABA B which is not blocked by preg (I think) is then probably heavily stimulated by the androgens. GABA B leads to a lack of motivation and even a spacey feeling, though it has many positive aspects as well. Fun fact GABA B seems to eliminate the negative feedback loop of testosterone administration, this might lead to even more androgens, thus more GABA B, thus more androgens = positive feedback loop. I don't know how you would fix this without stopping administration. Would increasing excitatory neurotransmitters help? Perhaps but to what degree I do not know. I will put some effort into finding a solution, it would be unfortunate if we had to stop administration.

 

[milk_lover]

I dont feel good on androsterone + dhea+ pregneleone. I dont knwo fi I am taking too many anti-estrogen supplements but I feel irritable, not creative, overheated and spaced out. It is hard to concentrate on homework or feel motivated to anything. I also ave a big headache but I think it may stem from sleeping troubles. I am going to stop taking hromonal supplemetns and see if I feel better.

Why don't you stop andro only because it is not well researched yet like pregnenolone and DHEA?

I made a rule for myself. Pregnenolone can be taken topically or orally. DHEA only topically because I think it increased my estrogen levels when I did it orally. Andro made me sick and I lost my libido on it.

Having said that, I will still experiment with andro in better controlled ways.