Need Help With Hypervitaminosis E Issues

[topdog82]

So I began supplementing with a hefty dose of d3 and k2 a few months back. I had fairly low vitamin d3. I ended up feeling a huge boost within the first 1-2 days. My sleep was noticeably deeper and I had a nice mood boost to go along with it.

1 capsule https://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Advanced-Complex-softgels/dp/B004GW4S0G?th=1
and about 10,000 iu's of vitamin d3 in coconut oil

Unfortunately, it seems like I should have been doing magnesium, calcium, and vitamin a/e. When you supplement one singular nutrient, particularly fat soluble vitamins, other vitamin deficiencies will inevitably pop up. my skin felt tingly with pins and needles(hypocalcemia). I fell really sick from hypothyroidism (verified from a blood test). After realizing that one should not take high dose vitamin d/k without other vitamins, I added in vitamin a, vitamin e, calcium, magnesium, and a whole foods multi to the stack

I think my vitamin e and vitamin a were WAY too high in hindsight. about 1000 iu and 10,000 iu respectively

I ended up with vitamin a toxicity. I supplemented taurine and immediately felt a lot better within a few days

• Taurine significantly reduces toxic effects in rats.[45] Retinoids can be conjugated by taurine and other substances. Significant amounts of retinotaurine are excreted in the bile,[46] and this retinol conjugate is thought to be an excretory form, as it has little biological activity.[47]

Hypervitaminosis A - Wikipedia


I still have hypervitaminosis E, hyperthyroid and hypercalcemia. I was wondering if anyone would give me some advice on the quickest way to get better. Once I do, I will definitely hop on the supplement created by the user "haidut" called "EstroBan - Dietary Supplement With Vitamins K2, A, D, E" (just pop the name into google. it should show up) and stop all other supplements

My heart rate was incredibly high earlier this week just sitting down (100-110) and working on a laptop and I "feel" heated at times (hyperthyroid). My hands were trembling and my arm muscles were spasming (sign of hypercalcemia).

Currently I am doing a whole foods diet, 2000 iu of d3, 1 capsule of the super k complex, 10k iu vitamin a, whole foods multi, and 10 grams of taurine


But if anyone had any supplementation advice to reverse my Hypervitaminosis E as soon as possible, that would be awesome! Below are my numbers from a recent set of blood tests. Thanks! EDIT: To clarify, these are the most recent blood tests. hence the calcium, vitamin e and t3 are only on the high end, or a little over the top. And the vitamin a is balanced out after a few days of taurine

Date collected: 09/13/2017:
Calcium, Serum 10.1 mg/dL 8.7 - 10.2
Cholesterol, Total 208 High mg/dL 100 - 199 01
Triglycerides 150 High mg/dL 0 - 149
LDL Cholesterol Calc 133 High mg/dL 0 - 99
T4,Free(Direct) 1.52 ng/dL 0.82 - 1.77
Triiodothyronine,Free,Serum 4.6 High pg/mL 2.0 - 4.4

Date collected 09/07/2017:
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 57.0 ng/mL 30.0 - 100.0
Vitamin E(Alpha Tocopherol) 19.5 High mg/L 5.3 - 17.5
Vitamin A, Serum 56 ug/dL 24 - 85
Vitamin K1 3.37 High ng/mL 0.13 - 1.88
PTH, Intact 19 pg/mL 15 - 65

 

[raypeatclips]

What makes you think you have hypo or hypercalcemia? Your calcium is within range. Similarly with E, I am not familiar with vitamin E blood tests but it is barely just high. What's your reasoning behind still taking vit K, despite your blood tests being the most out of range of all, in proportion to the highest level in range. You also say you had vitamin A toxicity, but your vitamin A blood levels are mid range. How are you diagnosing these conditions, if not with blood tests?

How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?

 

[DaveFoster]

A pulse of 100-110 isn't "incredibly high." I have a resting pulse of around 100.

The effects of vitamin E will wear off within a week.

"Thyroid function stimulates the liver to inactivate estrogen for secretion, so estrogen dominance can create a viscous circle, in which estrogen (or deficient progesterone) blocks thyroid secretion, causing the liver to allow estrogen to accumulate to even higher levels. Progesterone (even one dose, in some cases) can break the cycle. However, if the gland is very big, one person can experience a few months of hyperthyroidism, as the gland returns to normal. It is better to allow the enlarged gland to shrink more slowly by using a thyroid supplement. If an enlarged gland does begin to secrete too much thyroid hormone, it can be controlled with tablets of propylthiouracil, or even raw cabbage or cabbage juice, and cysteine rich meats, including liver."

- Raymond Peat, PhD

 

[topdog82]

What makes you think you have hypo or hypercalcemia? Your calcium is within range. Similarly with E, I am not familiar with vitamin E blood tests but it is barely just high. What's your reasoning behind still taking vit K, despite your blood tests being the most out of range of all, in proportion to the highest level in range. You also say you had vitamin A toxicity, but your vitamin A blood levels are mid range. How are you diagnosing these conditions, if not with blood tests?

How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?

Hey so you bring up a couple good points and I wanted to clarify. The above numbers are the numbers from my most recent blood tests. This is why my calcium is only on the upper end, my vitamin e is on the upper end and my vitamin a is well within range

You also say you had vitamin A toxicity, but your vitamin A blood levels are mid range
My vitamin a was around 100. I felt better within 24 hours of supplementing taurine. In a few days I felt the symptoms disappear. as you can see above, I no longer have hypervitaminosis A
What makes you think you have hypo or hypercalcemia? Your calcium is within range. Similarly with E, I am not familiar with vitamin E blood tests but it is barely just high
For vitamin e, the numbers were around 23-25 in previous tests. Around this time, my calcium was around 11-12. I also displayed signs of hypercalcemia and hyperthyroid. ears ringing, tiredness, abnormal heart rhythms, feeling dizzy and like fainting. Also, twitches and tremors in my hands and my heart rate would go up randomly.

What's your reasoning behind still taking vit K, despite your blood tests being the most out of range of all, in proportion to the highest level in range
I am still taking a vitamin k supplement because (so I understand it) vitamin k1 and k2 would rarely cause issues. Your body doesn't store vitamin k1 or k2. There haven't been any real toxic effects associated with k1 and k2. k3 was banned because it caused many issues. it is a synthetic form. the japanese have studies of taking 45mg and up of k2 mk-4 with no real issues. In addition, I am taking the supporting vitamins (including k) because in the presence of vitamins a, d, and k, I believe that vitamin e serum levels will drop. vitamin k is antagonizes by vitamin e I believe


How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?
How are you diagnosing these conditions, if not with blood tests
How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?
I would be more than happy to post all my blood tests, but I only choose to include the concerning numbers and the most recent ones. of all the numbers I looked at, the above mentioned ranges/numbers are the only ones that are out of bounds or on the high/low end and they match spot on with the symptoms that experienced

A pulse of 100-110 isn't "incredibly high." I have a resting pulse of around 100.

The effects of vitamin E will wear off within a week.

"Thyroid function stimulates the liver to inactivate estrogen for secretion, so estrogen dominance can create a viscous circle, in which estrogen (or deficient progesterone) blocks thyroid secretion, causing the liver to allow estrogen to accumulate to even higher levels. Progesterone (even one dose, in some cases) can break the cycle. However, if the gland is very big, one person can experience a few months of hyperthyroidism, as the gland returns to normal. It is better to allow the enlarged gland to shrink more slowly by using a thyroid supplement. If an enlarged gland does begin to secrete too much thyroid hormone, it can be controlled with tablets of propylthiouracil, or even raw cabbage or cabbage juice, and cysteine rich meats, including liver."

- Raymond Peat, PhD

I have a resting pulse of around 100
In regards to the heart rate, my resting heart rate is around 57-65 at any given moment. It would spike up to 110 and I would feel overheated, dizzy and sweaty for about 5 minutes at a time. My fitbit has confirmed my resting heart rate and these huge spikes

I am confused. I couldn't find the half life of vitamin e on the internet. Could you post a study/reference suggesting or implying that vitamin e hypervitaminosis disappears in a week?


I am also unsure why you posted your quote? You are suggesting taking propylthiouracil? or that I add cabbage to my diet?

Please let me know. Thanks!

 

[raypeatclips]

Hey so you bring up a couple good points and I wanted to clarify. The above numbers are the numbers from my most recent blood tests. This is why my calcium is only on the upper end, my vitamin e is on the upper end and my vitamin a is well within range

You also say you had vitamin A toxicity, but your vitamin A blood levels are mid range
My vitamin a was around 100. I felt better within 24 hours of supplementing taurine. In a few days I felt the symptoms disappear. as you can see above, I no longer have hypervitaminosis A
What makes you think you have hypo or hypercalcemia? Your calcium is within range. Similarly with E, I am not familiar with vitamin E blood tests but it is barely just high
For vitamin e, the numbers were around 23-25 in previous tests. Around this time, my calcium was around 11-12. I also displayed signs of hypercalcemia and hyperthyroid. ears ringing, tiredness, abnormal heart rhythms, feeling dizzy and like fainting. Also, twitches and tremors in my hands and my heart rate would go up randomly.

What's your reasoning behind still taking vit K, despite your blood tests being the most out of range of all, in proportion to the highest level in range
I am still taking a vitamin k supplement because (so I understand it) vitamin k1 and k2 would rarely cause issues. Your body doesn't store vitamin k1 or k2. There haven't been any real toxic effects associated with k1 and k2. k3 was banned because it caused many issues. it is a synthetic form. the japanese have studies of taking 45mg and up of k2 mk-4 with no real issues. In addition, I am taking the supporting vitamins (including k) because in the presence of vitamins a, d, and k, I believe that vitamin e serum levels will drop. vitamin k is antagonizes by vitamin e I believe


How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?
How are you diagnosing these conditions, if not with blood tests
How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?
I would be more than happy to post all my blood tests, but I only choose to include the concerning numbers and the most recent ones. of all the numbers I looked at, the above mentioned ranges/numbers are the only ones that are out of bounds or on the high/low end and they match spot on with the symptoms that experienced


I have a resting pulse of around 100
In regards to the heart rate, my resting heart rate is around 57-65 at any given moment. It would spike up to 110 and I would feel overheated, dizzy and sweaty for about 5 minutes at a time. My fitbit has confirmed my resting heart rate and these huge spikes

I am confused. I couldn't find the half life of vitamin e on the internet. Could you post a study/reference suggesting or implying that vitamin e hypervitaminosis disappears in a week?


I am also unsure why you posted your quote? You are suggesting taking propylthiouracil? or that I add cabbage to my diet?

Please let me know. Thanks!

Maybe your calcium levels were starting to edge towards mild hypercalcemia, but none of them seem glaringly high, I could be wrong though.

Gut irritation has given me the symptoms you have described, heart rate suddenly racing, sweating, dizzy. They have been caused by oral vitamin supplementation, vitamin E being notorious for causing people gut issues, just search on here. Peat himself has experienced negative effects from fat soluble vitamins irritating the gut.

 

[Travis]

You also say you had vitamin A toxicity, but your vitamin A blood levels are mid range

These nearly always stay within range. The vast majority of excessive vitamin A is efficiently stored in the liver.

 

[raypeatclips]

These nearly always stay within range. The vast majority of excessive vitamin A is efficiently stored in the liver.

He was also only taking 10k vit A, that isn't a lot compared to some of the people on this forum. He doesn't specify how long he took this for though. Gut irritation from fat soluble vitamins is a known and common issue and seems to match the symptoms presented.

 

[topdog82]

I was taking 10k vitamin a for about a month along with vitamin e at 1k iu. Ever since I started taurine daily I basically never get any hypervitaminosis A symptoms despite having had them before from the same exact same dosages. I verified this with a blood test too. I even tried taking 20k ius a day for a week with no increase in serum vitamin a levels at all on my blood tests. Interesting to say the least

But I did some digging and I have two possibilities;
either I have some digestive issues from the fat soluble vitamins
or
I have a milder case of hypervitaminosis e coupled with some hypercalcemia and hyperthyroid. It is hard to say. From what I understand, hyperthyroid numbers could even be well within the normal range, while the patient suffers severe hyperthyroid symptoms. Blood tests merely gauge how far your personal numbers are from the average populations baseline/healthy levels. Each person is unique.

I am not sure which of the above it is. But for now, I will let it sit. I will bring down the dosages of fat-soluble vitamins and see what happens

if my vitamin e levels don't even out, or even get worse, I will look into taking coq10
I found this little gem
Vitamin E Hyperthyroid Anecdote - Ray Peat Q&A

Someone else with hyperthyroid symptoms after high dose vitamin e. But on the last comment in the comment thread someone mentions a cool way to drop vitamin e serum levels
Also... " vitamin E supplementation tended to reduce the concentrations of plasma CoQ10 and that CoQ10 supplementation tended to reduce α-tocopherol concentrations". Hmmm...

Cosupplementation with vitamin E and coenzyme Q10 reduces circulating markers of inflammation in baboons

I will just let it sit for now. Better to avoid creating new deficiencies with new supplements. Just something worth mentioning

 

[Travis]

From reading about vitamin A, I get the impression that it's more-or-less safely stored in the liver until a critical point is reached and it spills-over into the bloodstream. Data from thousands of blood samples show remarkably consistent blood values, but liver biopsies are all over the place—thousandfold increases in some people.

Too much vitamin A in the blood can cause issues, but there is little data on what high amounts in the liver can do. There are not many people lining-up for liver biopsies.

After taking that much retinol, you should be good for awhile. The liver can store enough retinol to keep blood levels in range for months.

 

[topdog82]

super interesting. I presume that other fat soluble vitamins differ in regards to the fact that they are not stored in the liver in this manner?

 

[Travis]

Yeah. I'm not sure how liver function varies with increasing retinol esters, but you would think that there may be less space available for everything else.

Just curious: Did you experience increasing skin turnover? Maybe flaking on the eye-lids?

I haven't read much about vitamin E toxicity because I was under the impression that it was mild, but I do know that vitamin K toxicity is unheard of. You might experience effects with K₂, but this is only because it substitutes for CoQ₁₀ in the electron transport chain. Actual vitamin K₁ toxicity is unheard-of.

And vitamin D₃ is a prohormone. It has to converted to it's active form before it can really do anything; this is tightly-regulated. I think you should be fine on the vitamin D and calcium. I would think that the blood levels of these would reflect the true state of affairs.

In nature, vitamin E is consumed in four forms: α, β, γ, and δ-tocopherol. I think mixed tocopherols are better than just taking any one alone, and α-tocopherol has been shown to decrease γ-tocopherol levels. Gamma-tocopherol is the only one that can scavenge reactive nitrogen species: it has a slightly different head with slightly different chemical properties. This form was actually found more protective in many cancer studies.

But vitamin A is consumed by nearly everyone in high-enough amounts. I wouldn't worry about storing much in your liver if you plan to continue eating whole food. The only people who really get vitamin A deficiencies are the ones who eat too much refined food, like white rice.

We of course need vitamin A, but it think you could confidently say that retinol and iron are the two single most dangerous vitamin supplements (with vitamin D₃ coming-in at a distant third.)

 

[topdog82]

As of now, I have (accidentally) experienced vitamin d, a, and e toxicity. A being the worst and most debilitating. D following up. and vitamin e toxicity (at about 22.5 measured by a blood test) last as most unpleasant. All were noticeable and unpleasant though. this entire experience has made me realize why its better to just stick with whole food as opposed to supplement individual pieces and bits. Things get spotty as there is tons of room for error. nutrients act on each other and interact with each other. best to avoid playing doctor. esp because (based on what I know) there is a lot about nutrition we still don't know. And at that, you are better off supplementing nutrients that are verified to be deficient in blood tests

I understand noone here is a doctor, but with the given information would you say that the following is a good plan?
-ensure that the side effects I am experiencing are due to hypervitaminosis and not simple digestive discomfort due to fat soluble vitamins/taurine. both of these have created a noticeable bit of digestive issues in isolated form anecdotally

-assuming that my issues are due to hypervitaminosis e, take coq10 100mg, low dose k complex (link below), low dose vitamin d, low dose vitamin a (2-5k), taurine to ensure I don't get vitamin a toxicity and a whole foods multi?
The idea here being to take the minimal effective dose of fat soluble vitamins to antagonize the e, and to take coq10 as in the above study it seems to drop vitamin e levels. Taking more fat soluble vitamins would increase my risk of other vitamin toxicities popping I think that this would make sense as they are both strong anti-oxidants (right?). The main issue here being that I was unable to confirm that coq10 really does drop vitamin e levels as the study that mentioned it mentioned it as a side note. and in addition it is only mentioned once in that study. there are yet to be studies that replicate it

******* I am really just sitting here regretting taking any supplements. Toxicity sucks
https://www.amazon.com/Bronson-Vita...TF8&qid=1505527952&sr=8-27&keywords=k+complex

 

[raypeatclips]

What levels did your vitamin D get to?

 

[topdog82]

I was travelling europe at the time so I can't say. I probably could have checked in with a doctor if needed. but by the time I got back 48. But the issue there is that most of my hypothyroid issues and toxicity was gone. It was a month or two of supplementing vitamin a and e. So too many confounding factors to give you a clear answer or useful info

 

[DaveFoster]

Hey so you bring up a couple good points and I wanted to clarify. The above numbers are the numbers from my most recent blood tests. This is why my calcium is only on the upper end, my vitamin e is on the upper end and my vitamin a is well within range

You also say you had vitamin A toxicity, but your vitamin A blood levels are mid range
My vitamin a was around 100. I felt better within 24 hours of supplementing taurine. In a few days I felt the symptoms disappear. as you can see above, I no longer have hypervitaminosis A
What makes you think you have hypo or hypercalcemia? Your calcium is within range. Similarly with E, I am not familiar with vitamin E blood tests but it is barely just high
For vitamin e, the numbers were around 23-25 in previous tests. Around this time, my calcium was around 11-12. I also displayed signs of hypercalcemia and hyperthyroid. ears ringing, tiredness, abnormal heart rhythms, feeling dizzy and like fainting. Also, twitches and tremors in my hands and my heart rate would go up randomly.

What's your reasoning behind still taking vit K, despite your blood tests being the most out of range of all, in proportion to the highest level in range
I am still taking a vitamin k supplement because (so I understand it) vitamin k1 and k2 would rarely cause issues. Your body doesn't store vitamin k1 or k2. There haven't been any real toxic effects associated with k1 and k2. k3 was banned because it caused many issues. it is a synthetic form. the japanese have studies of taking 45mg and up of k2 mk-4 with no real issues. In addition, I am taking the supporting vitamins (including k) because in the presence of vitamins a, d, and k, I believe that vitamin e serum levels will drop. vitamin k is antagonizes by vitamin e I believe


How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?
How are you diagnosing these conditions, if not with blood tests
How do you know it isn't something else thats the issue?
I would be more than happy to post all my blood tests, but I only choose to include the concerning numbers and the most recent ones. of all the numbers I looked at, the above mentioned ranges/numbers are the only ones that are out of bounds or on the high/low end and they match spot on with the symptoms that experienced


I have a resting pulse of around 100
In regards to the heart rate, my resting heart rate is around 57-65 at any given moment. It would spike up to 110 and I would feel overheated, dizzy and sweaty for about 5 minutes at a time. My fitbit has confirmed my resting heart rate and these huge spikes

I am confused. I couldn't find the half life of vitamin e on the internet. Could you post a study/reference suggesting or implying that vitamin e hypervitaminosis disappears in a week?


I am also unsure why you posted your quote? You are suggesting taking propylthiouracil? or that I add cabbage to my diet?

Please let me know. Thanks!

"The half-life of α-tocopherol is about 20 hours; thus the half-lives of the tocotrienols are 4.5- to 8.7-fold shorter [160]. "

References

Tocotrienols, the Vitamin E of the 21st Century: It’s Potential Against Cancer and Other Chronic Diseases

Pharmacokinetics and bioavailability of alpha-, gamma- and delta-tocotrienols under different food status. - PubMed - NCBI

Most of the time, a high pulse indicates hypothyroidism and subsequent production of adrenaline to fulfill the energy demands on the body.

 

[topdog82]

strange. It seems to be taking longer than planned to clear out the vitamin e. Which leads me to believe that vitamin e either gets stored in your liver,

or, the small amount (30iu) of vitamin e that I take in my whole food multivitamin is interfering. I highly doubt that 30iu's plus a whole foods diet would really cause that many issues with my hypervitaminosis E. But regardless, I also saw that on some of my blood tests my iron was concerningly low. On other blood tests, my iron was somewhat normal. This could also be why I am experiencing the symptoms that I am. Vitamin e antagonizes iron. Does anyone know if serum iron levels are a true reflection of what is going on? Do they fluctuate

A lot of moving parts here

 

[topdog82]

A consistent trend noted was that CoQ10 supplements decreased VitE concentrations in all tissues

Dietary Cosupplementation With Vitamin E and Coenzyme Q10 Inhibits Atherosclerosis in Apolipoprotein E Gene Knockout Mice | Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology

bingo! It seems like taurine is the antidote to vitamin A poisoning, and coq10 helps kill vitamin e toxicity. both coq10 and taurine are fairly harmless so I understand it. I am posting this in this thread in case anyone happens to care and on the off chance this info ends up helping anyone

Thanks!

 

[Travis]

I would just be careful with vitamin–hormones A and D. The B-vitamins and vitamin K appear to be harmless in high amounts, and so do chelated trace minerals (i.e. zinc picolinate).

You might want to take just a few supplements; it highly depends on what you're eating. I get like 3,000 RDA form vitamin K just from food, so I don't worry about that. There are probably many things that you don't have to worry about.

You should go to cronometer.com and see what your food is like.

 

[raypeatclips]

with vitamin D₃ coming-in at a distant third.

What do you see as the issues with D3 supplementation? You're not referring to Marshall are you?

 

[topdog82]

good suggestions. I am gonna start doing cronometer after this all levels out and take blood tests. Only supplement spotty areas or things I can't get on a daily basis. Given my diet, I think k2 or a k complex maybe a low dose d3 are the only ones needed. Like I said, this toxicity gave me some valuable lessons about all this

I went ahead of reduced my vitamin intake. I take the raw one whole foods multi. I am adding a small dose of coq10. 100mg ubiquinone, and 100-200mg ubiquinol. I am upping my grass-fed beef intake for iron, I think iron supplements should only be done with extra care. in addition, 10 grams of taurine (clear all the vitamin a out my system just in case). I will keep up with this regimen until I feel better. keep the fat-soluble intake low. just in case. I still take magnesium at night, and half a gram of calcium daily

I think k2 can be easily acquired from grass-fed brie and gouda. so can calcium. I think magnesium is a little hard and so I am told, it is easy to deplete with all the coffee and stressful lifestyle. my coffee habit needs to end. In addition, I will take the whole foods raw one multi. I walk to work here and there so I will see if my d3 stays on point

What do you see as the issues with D3 supplementation? You're not referring to Marshall are you?

I could be wrong here but if you supp d3, you pull calcium from the blood and into soft tissues. Unless you balance out with k2, you could actually harm yourself