OREOS vs STATINS....OREOS WIN!

[jay123]

View: https://youtu.be/L1mMnnyJrgk?si=uIoVL5RAkvlaNwtx


Aim: To test the prediction -- consistent with the Lipid Energy Model (below) -- that adding carbohydrates (in the form of Oreo cookies) to an LMHR on a ketogenic diet would reduce LDL-C levels by a similar, or greater, magnitude than high-intensity statin therapy.

Findings: Oreo supplementation (12 cookies/d) lowered LDL-C by 71% (273 mg/dl) in just 16 days. Rosuvastatin (20 mg/d) lowered LDL-C by 32.5% (137 mg/dl). Thus, Oreos were ~2X as potent as high-intensity statin therapy for LDL cholesterol lowering in this LMHR subject.

The Why: The LMHR phenotype has much to teach us about human metabolism, and cardiovascular disease pathophysiology. It's a new frontier that deserves further study, for the sake of the patients with this phenotype and for pure scientific curiosity! This experiment will serve as 'productive provocation,' a form of 'legit-bait' that will hopefully help prompt discussions and larger-scale experiments that need to happen.

 

[jay123]

Oreo Cookie Treatment Lowers LDL Cholesterol More Than High-Intensity Statin therapy in a Lean Mass Hyper-Responder on a Ketogenic Diet: A Curious Crossover Experiment

Recent research has identified a unique population of ‘Lean Mass Hyper-Responders’ (LMHR) who exhibit increases in LDL cholesterol (LDL-C) in response to carbohydrate-restricted diets to levels ≥ 200 mg/dL, in association with HDL cholesterol ≥ 80 mg/dL and triglycerides ≤ 70 mg/dL. This triad...

www.mdpi.com

By the way, Im not advocating for a keto diet. Interesting what adding carbohydrates does to this type of person.

 

[Osukhan]

i have been following dave feldman for a long while, and now Nick Norwitz as well. I def fall into the catergory as LMHR phenotype and almost entered myself into their study...
i ve noticed the same when i introduced carbs back into my diet as well, looking forward to see all their updates

 

[jay123]

i have been following dave feldman for a long while, and now Nick Norwitz as well. I def fall into the catergory as LMHR phenotype and almost entered myself into their study...
i ve noticed the same when i introduced carbs back into my diet as well, looking forward to see all their updates

It seems to me that when you lean out from keto that this would be a necessity to increase carbs. It makes me think that keto could be beneficial for weight loss temporarily but then the adjusted carbohydrate feeds would be needed for glycogen stores. Just thinking out loud.....

 

[Osukhan]

It seems to me that when you lean out from keto that this would be a necessity to increase carbs. It makes me think that keto could be beneficial for weight loss temporarily but then the adjusted carbohydrate feeds would be needed for glycogen stores. Just thinking out loud.....

yea i would agree, everything can be used as a tool
i went from 260 to 190 on carnivore-ish diet and when adding carbs got back up to 225 rather quickly...

 

[michael94]

It seems to me that when you lean out from keto that this would be a necessity to increase carbs. It makes me think that keto could be beneficial for weight loss temporarily but then the adjusted carbohydrate feeds would be needed for glycogen stores. Just thinking out loud.....

First I want to say that there is a lot that goes into what you're trying to get at than just Carb amounts.. but there's an interview kind of tangential that might be interesting to you.

Peter Attia (Low Carb guy) had an interview with one of the Coaches that works with Tadej Pogacar, one of the best Professional Cyclists in the World.

If you can tolerate DurianRider's comments he edited it down to 30 mins of the more interesting parts


View: https://youtu.be/u1IiTRyj4NM?si=62DGPVq43iPGLdgw


Or there's the full interview here

View: https://youtu.be/-6PDBVRkCKc?si=skcYVsxW1GNQeEMZ


The main issue the "Science Nutritionists" have is they want to view things in terms of absolute Carb amounts or something like that because it helps them think they can wrap their head around what is extremely complex and sometimes Magical.


Anyways if you want my quick perspective, I've found Keto/Fasting to be a sort of Kidney tonic and it drops stress that way. Useful tool for sure

 

[jay123]

First I want to say that there is a lot that goes into what you're trying to get at than just Carb amounts.. but there's an interview kind of tangential that might be interesting to you.

Peter Attia (Low Carb guy) had an interview with one of the Coaches that works with Tadej Pogacar, one of the best Professional Cyclists in the World.

If you can tolerate DurianRider's comments he edited it down to 30 mins of the more interesting parts


View: https://youtu.be/u1IiTRyj4NM?si=62DGPVq43iPGLdgw


Or there's the full interview here

View: https://youtu.be/-6PDBVRkCKc?si=skcYVsxW1GNQeEMZ


The main issue the "Science Nutritionists" have is they want to view things in terms of absolute Carb amounts or something like that because it helps them think they can wrap their head around what is extremely complex and sometimes Magical.
Anyways if you want my perspective, I've found Keto/Fasting to be a sort of Kidney tonic and it drops stress that way. Useful tool for sure

I would think there would be a usefulness for it. I guess what we all know here is that statin drugs are not good. Its obvious to us too that PUFA in Oreos is not good either. I would assume, with someone lean, like this guy was in his n=1 experiment, possibly has more adaptive qualities compared to someone who is overweight (or underweight) and a hormonal wreck. But yeah, the absolutes...that can be iffy with some things.

 

[Elie]

yea i would agree, everything can be used as a tool
i went from 260 to 190 on carnivore-ish diet and when adding carbs got back up to 225 rather quickly...

What's Carnivorish?
If you don't mind me asking how old were you when you lost that much, over what period of time and how tall are you?

 

[TucsonJJ]

I would think there would be a usefulness for it. I guess what we all know here is that statin drugs are not good. Its obvious to us too that PUFA in Oreos is not good either. I would assume, with someone lean, like this guy was in his n=1 experiment, possibly has more adaptive qualities compared to someone who is overweight (or underweight) and a hormonal wreck. But yeah, the absolutes...that can be iffy with some things.

Remember the "Space Doc"? A US NASA Shuttle pilot that was severely damaged by high-dose statins... which eventually killed him... he wrote a lot about the dangers... yet... towards the end of his life, he recommended LOW-DOSE statins strongly.
Could this be another example of the dose makes the poison?
I think he recommended 5mg or less Crestor (or generic) once or twice a week, taken with CoQ10...

 

[TucsonJJ]

I would think there would be a usefulness for it. I guess what we all know here is that statin drugs are not good. Its obvious to us too that PUFA in Oreos is not good either. I would assume, with someone lean, like this guy was in his n=1 experiment, possibly has more adaptive qualities compared to someone who is overweight (or underweight) and a hormonal wreck. But yeah, the absolutes...that can be iffy with some things.

I have read that total elimination of PUFAs can make a guy feel VERY ill...
And... Dinkov has said that PUFA is not that bad if taken with saturated fat.
Excess consumption of PUFA is obviously very bad.

 

[jay123]

I have read that total elimination of PUFAs can make a guy feel VERY ill...
And... Dinkov has said that PUFA is not that bad if taken with saturated fat.
Excess consumption of PUFA is obviously very bad.

Makes sense.

 

[Osukhan]

What's Carnivorish?
If you don't mind me asking how old were you when you lost that much, over what period of time and how tall are you?

Carnivorish - i was mainly eating animal based -meat ribeyes, ground beef, lean meats would then go out to eat once in awhile and have whatever, this would be 2 or 3 times max a month. I was fasting regularly and exercising regularly
Health journey started when i was around 38 and i am 42 now 6'2 in height . first couple years mainly carnivore and fasting, and i honestly loved it, still prob my base diet thats when i went from 260 to 190lbs, and honestly you dont lose that much muscle fasting as long as you are consistantly working out
thats when i was doing more blood tests leading me to discover the LMHR groups
more so in the last year i have incorporated more carbs (around 200g) but still high protein and have gone from 225 to around 204 right now, working towards that 190ish but with a balanced diet, with occasional fasts

 

[akgrrrl]

i have been following dave feldman for a long while, and now Nick Norwitz as well. I def fall into the catergory as LMHR phenotype and almost entered myself into their study...
i ve noticed the same when i introduced carbs back into my diet as well, looking forward to see all their updates

Me as well. The February results of the big comparative study should be big stuff.

 

[Elie]

Carnivorish - i was mainly eating animal based -meat ribeyes, ground beef, lean meats would then go out to eat once in awhile and have whatever, this would be 2 or 3 times max a month. I was fasting regularly and exercising regularly
Health journey started when i was around 38 and i am 42 now 6'2 in height . first couple years mainly carnivore and fasting, and i honestly loved it, still prob my base diet thats when i went from 260 to 190lbs, and honestly you dont lose that much muscle fasting as long as you are consistantly working out
thats when i was doing more blood tests leading me to discover the LMHR groups
more so in the last year i have incorporated more carbs (around 200g) but still high protein and have gone from 225 to around 204 right now, working towards that 190ish but with a balanced diet, with occasional fasts

thanks for the details.
Any fruit on the carnivore diet?
Sounds pretty ketogenic to me. Was easy to adapt?

 

[Osukhan]

thanks for the details.
Any fruit on the carnivore diet?
Sounds pretty ketogenic to me. Was easy to adapt?

i dont think i ate enough fat for it to be ketogenic, way too much protein to call it keto, but wouldnt doubt i got into some ketosis while fasting but never monitored or tested for it.
yea very easy to adapt, like i said felt great doing it, i eat a lot of fruit now but not when i started
now i usually fast on fridays and only eat a large dinner and prob will just have steak and eggs

 

[jay123]

Carnivorish - i was mainly eating animal based -meat ribeyes, ground beef, lean meats would then go out to eat once in awhile and have whatever, this would be 2 or 3 times max a month. I was fasting regularly and exercising regularly
Health journey started when i was around 38 and i am 42 now 6'2 in height . first couple years mainly carnivore and fasting, and i honestly loved it, still prob my base diet thats when i went from 260 to 190lbs, and honestly you dont lose that much muscle fasting as long as you are consistantly working out
thats when i was doing more blood tests leading me to discover the LMHR groups
more so in the last year i have incorporated more carbs (around 200g) but still high protein and have gone from 225 to around 204 right now, working towards that 190ish but with a balanced diet, with occasional fasts

I could recall in the past decade or so a diet that was basically limiting to 100 g of carbs a day and eat your protein and fat without counting. At least do this at the beginning and people had success with it. And then after a month or so start adding back more carbs without changing the rest of the eating plan. I guess it may be a way of resetting the liver and other things? And I think around the same time I remember the carb backloading diet. Basically three meals a day and saving the carbs for dinner. It reminded me of a type of the Warrior Diet (but that was just eating little during day) that allowed you protien and fat all day and night was eating whole food carbs. So many different ways to attempt "healthy". But one thing we can all agree on, the processed food is very horrible for you in the long run.

 

[Osukhan]

I could recall in the past decade or so a diet that was basically limiting to 100 g of carbs a day and eat your protein and fat without counting. At least do this at the beginning and people had success with it. And then after a month or so start adding back more carbs without changing the rest of the eating plan. I guess it may be a way of resetting the liver and other things? And I think around the same time I remember the carb backloading diet. Basically three meals a day and saving the carbs for dinner. It reminded me of a type of the Warrior Diet (but that was just eating little during day) that allowed you protien and fat all day and night was eating whole food carbs. So many different ways to attempt "healthy". But one thing we can all agree on, the processed food is very horrible for you in the long run.

oh for sure! so many diff ways
ive done the warrior diet as well, just a smaller eating window
i def liked the fact i was never had to count calories, def
i still come from the mind set of earing your carbs, so i usually eat most of my carbs after my workouts
love him or hate him, Cole Robinson has many diff styles of fasting and eating, kind of all over the place, but has been front loading carbs so i may mess around with that too for awhile

 

[jay123]

oh for sure! so many diff ways
ive done the warrior diet as well, just a smaller eating window
i def liked the fact i was never had to count calories, def
i still come from the mind set of earing your carbs, so i usually eat most of my carbs after my workouts
love him or hate him, Cole Robinson has many diff styles of fasting and eating, kind of all over the place, but has been front loading carbs so i may mess around with that too for awhile

Nice.