Papua New Guinea - Sweet Potato Diet

[Westside PUFAs]

The study Davefoster posted has Pollack stating their leaders were obese ,the lower social class were not. Something on the islands made them obese. Reasonable questions on intelligence/metabolism of the lower social class can be asked.

From the study: "The proportion of total fat consumed from imported foods was 44.8% for urban populations and only 8.4% for rural populations. Later it was determined that people were 2.2 times more likely to be obese and 2.4 times more likely to be diabetic if they consumed fat from imported foods rather than from traditional fat sources. The most commonly consumed imported foods providing fat were identified as oil, margarine, butter, meat and chicken, tinned meat and tinned fish."

Few Paintings will show fat people for reasons of human vanity ,iPhones have filters for a reason in modern times.

They would have absolutely painted it. This was long before fat shaming was a thing. Obese people were attractions for circus' and the like long ago. It would have been crazy to see it back in Cook's day.

People without type 2 diabetes have excess a dispose tissue.

Yes but the chain link will eventually break which is why you don't see obese people living past 60 usually. The resistance to insulin resistance eventually breaks, and those people are very rare.

 

[Drareg]

Your quote is for a different time period.

This is the quote I mentioned.

"Pollock highlights some basic distinctions of Pacific people, especially a very different social economy to that of the Europeans (22). The author explains that Pacific economies were based on wide social networks and land was more important for determining identity and traditional ties than it was for providing food. Health was a group concept – a shared sense of well-being and food had symbolic and economic importance rather than being a biological necessity.

This was epitomized by the Pacific aristocracy and leaders. The chiefs were the symbolic leaders of the clan and, as a result, were usually the largest (obese) people in the community. The author estimates that Pacific people were vegetarian 85% of the time. The high value placed on starchy foods still persists.

Meat and fish were consumed but, in Polynesian society, pork was denied to the lower classes. Feasts were not all that common. The traditional diet of the people was mainly large quantities of starchy root crops with a side of green leaves, seafood and coconut. This has been slowly replaced by imported foods to the point of food dependency in the 1980s".

What you need to notice is paragraph 2 here. He estimates they were 85% vegetarian at the time,obese and placed high value on starchy foods.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

What you need to notice is paragraph 3, that you quoted: " The traditional diet of the people was mainly large quantities of starchy root crops with a side of green leaves, seafood and coconut. This has been slowly replaced by imported foods to the point of food dependency in the 1980s".

"Food supply data show that total available energy and fat has increased in all countries. The majority of countries have increased availability of meat, alcohol and milk since 1965. All countries except Australia and New Caledonia comply with the WHO recommendations for fat contribution to total energy. The largest single providers of energy for Pacific countries are cereal products (white flour and rice). However, the largest single increase since 1965 has been in the availability of vegetable oils. Fat availability from all sources except coconuts has increased. Total fat contribution for the majority of countries has increased. Imported fat has been added to and has not replaced existing fat sources such as coconuts. The largest single increase in meat products has been the importation of chicken meat, which is relatively high in fat. There is no information on the imports of individual high-fat foods, such as mutton flaps and turkey tails, except for Tonga where imports of mutton flaps have been declining since 1992 in favour of chicken and sausages."

 

[Drareg]

What you need to notice is paragraph 3, that you quoted: " The traditional diet of the people was mainly large quantities of starchy root crops with a side of green leaves, seafood and coconut. This has been slowly replaced by imported foods to the point of food dependency in the 1980s".

"Food supply data show that total available energy and fat has increased in all countries. The majority of countries have increased availability of meat, alcohol and milk since 1965. All countries except Australia and New Caledonia comply with the WHO recommendations for fat contribution to total energy. The largest single providers of energy for Pacific countries are cereal products (white flour and rice). However, the largest single increase since 1965 has been in the availability of vegetable oils. Fat availability from all sources except coconuts has increased. Total fat contribution for the majority of countries has increased. Imported fat has been added to and has not replaced existing fat sources such as coconuts. The largest single increase in meat products has been the importation of chicken meat, which is relatively high in fat. There is no information on the imports of individual high-fat foods, such as mutton flaps and turkey tails, except for Tonga where imports of mutton flaps have been declining since 1992 in favour of chicken and sausages."

There older ,"traditional", diet has been replaced since the 80's.
They were obese before this from high starch 85% vegetarian diet, this was the elites in their society.

 

[tara]

The orange, kumara.
Sweet potato - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do you know it's the orange one and not the whitish one?

Life expectancy : 60 for male - 65 for female.

Not a great testament to health, I agree. I wonder if some of that is down to chronic low-calorie diet.

Does saturated fat based obesity make you stupid ,probably not. Starches clearly made the lower social class passive.

Not sure if you are serious here.
That's a leap way too far in my opinion.There are lots of other factors that can contribute to one group getting dominance over another.

How can politics have no effect on biochemistry? what's the main source of stress today?

+1, if one uses a broad definition of politics that includes all power and economic relations.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

You're misreading it. The "85% vegetarian" you keep talking about was observed from NJ Pollock, who studied the islands in 86, 89, 92, and 93, long after. He wasn't alive to see obese chiefs on traditional diet. Search the PDF for the work "pollock."

 

[tara]

Do you have a time machine? I can show you historical paintings by the British when they came across the Polynesians in Tahiti, Hawaii, and New Zealand and none of them were fat.

"A dietary survey undertaken in the Western Highlands in 1972 showed that the diet consisted almost entirely of sweet potato. The daily energy intake was 2300 for males and 1770 kilocalories for females. Of the total energy intake, 94% was derived from carbohydrate, 3% from protein and 2.4% from fat (76). Adults were consuming only 25g of protein per day.

Life expectancy : 60 for male - 65 for female.

Westside, how do you get from photos of skinny people to a conclusion that they were healthy?
You are aware that millions of people in the word suffer terrible health and many die because they don't get enough food, right?

Also, you are aware that it is quite possible to get diabetes while skinny, and become skinnier while diabetic, right?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Westside, how do you get from photos of skinny people to a conclusion that they were healthy?

It's depends on personal definitions. They were not "skinny" to me, they were lean and muscular, and did not have what I consider to be excess adipose tissue.

You are aware that millions of people in the word suffer terrible health and many die because they don't get enough food, right?

No, I didn't know that.

Also, you are aware that it is quite possible to get diabetes while skinny, and become skinnier while diabetic, right?

Which one? Type one or type two? Type one is very rare. The data shows most people who have type two are overweight. We've had this discussion before and I remember you talking about your friend who injects insulin. That's type one, not type two. Someone becoming skinner while diabetic doesn't mean anything. It all depends on what that person is doing which is a whole list of many things, mainly:

Age
Height
True weight
Gender of birth
Current blood labs taken from you when fasted for at least 12 hours
All pharmaceutical medications you currently take
All pharmaceutical medications you have taken in the past including any birth control
All dietary supplements including "natural" hormones you currently take
All dietary supplements including "natural" hormones you have taken in the past
Activity on a weekly basis
Approximate location in the world
Quality of the air you breathe
What kind of water you drink
How much sunlight you receive directly on your skin and on which parts of the body
Level of life stress
Level of sexual satisfaction
How many hours you sleep per night
How often you wake up during sleep
What hours to sleep from and to, as in normal or late like 3am-noon
What products you put on your skin like make up, soap, and other chemicals

 

[tara]

90% of people who have T2D have excess adipose tissue.

When and where? Studies of this done in recent seed-oil rich and/or nutrient-poor contexts?

Even then, you do get that 90% still leave 10% of diabetics who according to these standards do not have excess adipose?
And that diabetes is a wasting disease?
And that correlation does not = causation? Diabetic processes, even pre-diagnosis, can contribute to fat-gain, so the causal relationship here is not clear. Also, a great deal of current obesity is probably partly fueled by metabolic suppression by PUFAs, environmental estrogens, and various other stress factors. other factors, and PUFAs and estrogens, as I understand Peat contribute, to diabetic processes.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

When and where? Studies of this done in recent seed-oil rich and/or nutrient-poor contexts?

Even then, you do get that 90% still leave 10% of diabetics who according to these standards do not have excess adipose?
And that diabetes is a wasting disease?
And that correlation does not = causation? Diabetic processes, even pre-diagnosis, can contribute to fat-gain, so the causal relationship here is not clear. Also, a great deal of current obesity is probably partly fueled by metabolic suppression by PUFAs, environmental estrogens, and various other stress factors. other factors, and PUFAs and estrogens, as I understand Peat contribute, to diabetic processes.

Show me data on "skinny" people with type 2 diabetes. I can't find it.

 

[tara]

Yes but the chain link will eventually break which is why you don't see obese people living past 60 usually.

Where are you getting this from? Is this personal anecdotal evidence about your own circle of acquaintance, or a more general claim?

The mortality graphs I've seen (which I've not been able to find again unfortunately - sorry, or I would link) show lowest mortality in the 'overweight' category, and a much longer shallower tail in the direction of 'obese' than in the direction of 'normal/ideal', indicating people in the 'obese' category had almost as low mortality as the 'overweight' category.

 

[Drareg]

You're misreading it. The "85% vegetarian" you keep talking about was observed from NJ Pollock, who studied the islands in 86, 89, 92, and 93, long after. He wasn't alive to see obese chiefs on traditional diet. Search the PDF for the work "pollock."

I'm not misreading, if it wasn't Pollack then it's the author pointing out that the leaders are obese from a high starch 85% vegetarian diet, let's add to that a longevity of 60 years of age for man and consuming a high starch diet.
This is the type of diet you follow ,best of luck with that.

 

[Drareg]

Show me data on "skinny" people with type 2 diabetes. I can't find it.

A quick internet search finds the following.

Non-obese patients with type 2 diabetes and prediabetic subjects: distinct phenotypes requiring special diabetes treatment and (or) prevention? - PubMed - NCBI

Over 140 non obese type 2 diabetes contributed here.
Is type 2 diabetes a different disease in obese and nonobese patients? - PubMed - NCBI

Asian Indian subjects have a high tendency to develope type 2 diabetes even though obesity is uncommon.
Type 2 diabetes in non-obese Indian subjects is associated with reduced leptin levels: study from Mumbai, Western India. - PubMed - NCBI

The research goes on and on, plenty of type 2 diabetes who are thin.

You ask for data but rarely provide anything to back up your claims.

 

[Drareg]

Ray Peat would be proud.

I mean, starch is evil, but not that evil.

As WestsidePUFA suggested, these populations are well-adapted to their own diets. As a Northern European, my ancestral diet is composed of dairy, fruit, berries, and fatty meats, as written in Tacitus's Germania.

Evolution is not non-contextually gradualistic as dogmatically parroted at present. Punctuated equilibrium allows for some periods of rapid adaptation.

Undiscriminating adaptation, people ate clay in famine times.
Evolution is not all about survival mode.

 

[Drareg]

Haiduts recent studies on HIV/AIDS is interesting as is Gilbert Lings thoughts.
Papua New Guinea has an epidemic of HIV/AIDS.

HIV/AIDS in Papua New Guinea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The strawman here - high starch diet in Papa New Guinea is the cause of HIV/AIDS, clearly.

 

[tara]

No, I didn't know that.

My point is, being lean can sometimes indicate inadequate food, which means being lean is not a reliable indicator of good health or longevity

Which one? Type one or type two? Type one is very rare.

I believe this applies to adult-onset diabetes and to other kinds.

Show me data on "skinny" people with type 2 diabetes. I can't find it.

The stats you quote showed 10% not having 'excess' adipose. I don't write off 10% as trivial. Do you? If you do then you may as well forget about the association anyway, since less than 10% of 'obese' people have diagnosable diabetes.

I'm not going to do a detailed search now, and I guess you haven't either, but my first google hit for 'lean diabetic' had this at the top of the list:
Clinical and biochemical profile of lean type 2 diabetes mellitus

Type 2 diabetes mellitus is the most prevalent form of diabetes worldwide. In western countries majority of the cases are obese. The scenario may be different in certain parts of India. Various studies have reported a high prevalence of lean type 2 diabetes mellitus with a body mass index < 19 kg/m2.

I think it casts doubt on assumptions about some of your assumptions about diabetes, that are based on studies in western countries, applying straight-forwardly to other times and places.

We've had this discussion before and I remember you talking about your friend who injects insulin. That's type one, not type two. Someone becoming skinner while diabetic doesn't mean anything.

Yes I recall we have discussed before. I know people with adult-onset diabetes, some who are insulin-dependent and some not, who are lean and have not been obese during their lifetimes.

Someone becoming skinner while diabetic doesn't mean anything.

It does if you are using leanness as though it were a reliable indicator of health. My point is that some lean people are not in good health and/or will not enjoy great longevity.

Someone becoming skinner while diabetic doesn't mean anything. It all depends on what that person is doing which is a whole list of many things, mainly:

I agree that it doesn't always indicate that diabetes has caused the loss of weight - as you say, there are many factors. But before insulin was isolated and used to treat diabetes, people died of diabetes because it is a wasting disease. Some of this was adult-onset diabetes. I guess this would generally have indicated insufficient insulin, but enough people died of it to not be a trivial problem.

 

[DaveFoster]

Those have health effects but the actual feminization has more to do with the culture of the success of the baby boomers and their kids, and essentially the calmness of the 80's and 90's. People often remember the Reagan era (besides poor people) and the Clinton era as such good times. That comfort is why you see all the SJW's today. They have nothing to complain about so they make stuff up out of boredom. When a country like the US becomes too successful, they become too happy and comfortable and when real things happen outside like Putin or North Korea, parents will say "you send your kids to war, I'm too comfortable to send mine. We're just trying to live our life and be happy. We just got the mortgage on the house. I don't wanna get involved in this. Send the poor kids." So who's left to defend your country if needed? It's the paradox of a wealthy country.

Well said.

Davefosters study you quote is from 2001 also.

Can you show me the health studies from the historical thousands of years while following the traditional diet?
Can you show me the diet studies from the historical thousands of years diet they have consumed, in a climate like that,they will be eating a lot of fruit.

Did you like how the study also mentions there is a lack of diabetes diagnosis training in papa new Guinea?

Could you be more obtuse?

There's no such way, but this study does an adequate job. They have poor conclusions, though. I analyzed the data myself, as I'm writing a paper on it. There's a negligible positive correlation between sugar consumption and obesity, while there's a definite correlation between total fat consumption and obesity. There's also a negligible negative correlation between coconut consumption and obesity.

I'll just show you a couple of the many graphs that I made up:

Very strong positive correlation between vegetable oil consumption and obesity.

Moderate positive correlation between animal product consumption and obesity.

Almost no correlation between refined sugar consumption and obesity.

SOURCE NEW CALEDONIA DATA: Nutritional status in adults in the pluri-ethnic population of New Caledonia. The CALDIA Study Group. - PubMed - NCBI

SOURCE OBESITY DATA:
Gender Statistics | Data (accessed 3.15.16).

SOURCE FOOD CONSUMPTION DATA: http://www.wpro.who.int/publications/docs/diet_food_supply_obesity.pdf

How do you know it's the orange one and not the whitish one?

They refer to kumara as "sweet potato," while taro is referred to as "taro."

 

[tara]

They refer to kumara as "sweet potato," while taro is referred to as "taro."

I'm not talking about taro - that's completely different.
There are at least three varieties of kumara - orange, gold/yellow, whitish with purple flecks. Maybe others in other places. When asked which of these, you said orange. Is that because you were not aware of other varieties, or because you have evidence that the Papua Niu Guinean's ate the orange ones rather than the other varieties?

 

[tara]

I'll just show you a couple of the many graphs that I made up:

Interesting. Did you also do versions with total quantities, not just as proportion of calories? I imagine that the effects of lots of things woud be different on low calorie diets than on high calorie diets (not meaning overall calories are the only factor, just that they are likely one of them).

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm not talking about taro - that's completely different.
There are at least three varieties of kumara - orange, gold/yellow, whitish with purple flecks. Maybe others in other places. When asked which of these, you said orange. Is that because you were not aware of other varieties, or because you have evidence that the Papua Niu Guinean's ate the orange ones rather than the other varieties?

I'm not very familiar on varieties, no. They make a distinction between Kaul and Lufa villages; the former consumed primarily taro, while the latter mostly sweet potato.

There's also this: "Oomen (75) suggested that in the Highlands in 1971 the average adult’s intake was 1880 kilocalories, while 1470 was the average in the lower regions. In the Highlands low protein intakes were common and were dependent on the variety of sweet potato available. "

This suggests that natives desired the most protein-dense variety of sweet potato due to their very low protein intake.

Sweet potato in Papua New Guinea: a multitude of varieties created by smallholders - CIRAD

Interesting. Did you also do versions with total quantities, not just as proportion of calories? I imagine that the effects of lots of things woud be different on low calorie diets than on high calorie diets (not meaning overall calories are the only factor, just that they are likely one of them).

I didn't make graphs, but many of the sections in the journal mention very low fat intakes, as in under 10-15% of total kcal with relatively high amounts of proportional PUFA.

Despite this, the natives do not suffer from obesity. I'd attribute this completely to the PUFA depletion effect for under 15% oral fat as mentioned by a study that haidut posted on the forum.