Peat Very Wrong On Lactic Acid / Yogurt?

[Ben Stone]

Given the widespread use of fermented dairy product in numerous cultures going back hundreds if not thousands of years (Mongolia, etc), I am struggling to understand this Peat comment, can anyone make the case Don's refutal below is incorrect?:

Yoghurt
In quantities of an ounce or so, for flavoring, it's o.k., but the lactic acid content isn't good if you are using yogurt as a major source of your protein and calcium. It triggers the inflammatory reactions, leading to fibrosis eventually, and the immediate effect is to draw down the liver's glycogen stores for energy to convert it into glucose.

In discussing this in a thread on with Don Matesz on another site, his comments in opposition to above seem logical to me:

Back in days before refrigeration almost all milk was consumed in soured state. Any lactic acid absorbed goes first pass to the liver and is there converted to glucose via the Cori cycle. I'm not sure where Peat gets his idea that dietary lactic acid is harmful. There's a huge difference between eating lactic acid (which as I said will be converted to glucose pronto) and accumulating lactic acid in tissues due to suppressed metabolism. Lactic acid is also an antimicrobial in the gut.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378328/

Converting lactic acid to glucose is inflammatory? I'd like to see the evidence for that. I'd also like to see the evidence that yogurt is inflammatory. I don't have it at hand right now but the studies I have seen say no, its not. IMO Peat often seems unable to see the forest for the trees. He and his followers are so fixated on the details that they have trouble seeing that the body is not as fragile as they believe. Humans wouldn't be here today if thriving required all this recently acquired detail knowledge of biochemistry and the dietary flexibility produced by modern commerce to allegedly manage all these details by really picky eating.

 

[Ben Stone]

Anyone?

 

[lampofred]

He hasn't refuted Peat at all. Peat himself states dietary lactic acid is converted into glucose, but the problem is that liver glycogen is consumed heavily for that conversion to take place. I think he said somewhere that the amount of glycogen consumed is 5-6x the amount of glucose produced.

Anything that lowers blood sugar/glycogen stores will increase inflammation because inflammation biologically signifies energy deficit.

The rest of his argument has no science behind it, 1) just because something was done for thousands of years doesn't mean it's optimal, and 2) whether or not Peat is too detail-oriented or whether or not the body can handle non-optimal foods has nothing to do with whether yogurt is an optimal food or not.

 

[Hans]

He hasn't refuted Peat at all. Peat himself states dietary lactic acid is converted into glucose, but the problem is that liver glycogen is consumed heavily for that conversion to take place. I think he said somewhere that the amount of glycogen consumed is 5-6x the amount of glucose produced.

Anything that lowers blood sugar/glycogen stores will increase inflammation because inflammation biologically signifies energy deficit.

The rest of his argument has no science behind it, 1) just because something was done for thousands of years doesn't mean it's optimal, and 2) whether or not Peat is too detail-oriented or whether or not the body can handle non-optimal foods has nothing to do with whether yogurt is an optimal food or not.

And also, the cori cycle requires 6 ATP to convert lactate back to glucose.

 

[Arnold Grape]

Peat diet: destroying everything you like lol — in lieu of things like Greek yogurt, I have used cottage cheese, without additives. What’s sort of comical is if you look, many of the upscale cottage cheese items at food co-ops now have probiotics added in for a bonus effect. It’s not difficult to notice these trends that are perpetuated by who knows where? At any rate, Daisy Cottage Cheese is somewhat widely available or you could make your own.

 

[Noodlz2]

Frankly, the taste of fermentation isn't very pleasant. Fresh is always tastier imo.

 

[S-VV]

Don Matesz

Stopped reading there.

This guy has known the nutritional key to paradise for at least 20 years, regularly yoyoing between vegan, carnivore, and whatever he’s up to now.

 

[Nicolas Noyola]

tell this man that yogurt is bad

 

[methylenewhite]

Well there is a thing, cheese is a RP staple and traditionally made cheese is lactofermented too. Lactic acid content of fermented cheese is up to 2% lactic acid. It translates to 2 grams per 100 grams vs ±1 gram of lactic acid in yougurt per 100 grams.

 

[RealNeat]

honey with yoghurt problem solved? Greek yoghurt seems to be less nutritious, also Ray commented on a (I believe P&S episode) that "younger" yoghurt is less sour, so make your own?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Lactic acid from bacteria is d-lactic acid, whereas humans produce l-lactate. The d- version is inflammatory. That’s why Dr. Peat says that yogurt isn’t that great. In addition, fewer gut bacteria is more beneficial, and when you consume fermented products you populate the small intestine with bacteria which isn’t great either.

 

[methylenewhite]

Lactic acid from bacteria is d-lactic acid, whereas humans produce l-lactate. The d- version is inflammatory. That’s why Dr. Peat says that yogurt isn’t that great. In addition, fewer gut bacteria is more beneficial, and when you consume fermented products you populate the small intestine with bacteria which isn’t great either.

It's not true, even small amount of d-lactate gets you to ER. If lactofermented food would have any amount of d-lactate it would never be widespread.

 

[Runenight201]

I agree with Peat. If starving than it’s better to eat yawghurt but it shouldn’t displace calories from healthier foods. It’s much better used as a flavoring, such as a tablespoon or so in a sauce. I like to make a butter/yawghurt/mushroom/garlic sauce and then mix it into my pahsta, and then dump some tomahto/cheese sauce on top of it. Very, very satiating and insanely warming. All followed by sangria for happy times :)

 

[rei]

It's not true, even small amount of d-lactate gets you to ER. If lactofermented food would have any amount of d-lactate it would never be widespread.

D-Lactic Acidosis: An Underrecognized Complication of Short Bowel Syndrome

Some fermented foods and beverages such as pickles, yogurt, sour milk, tomatoes, apples, beer, and wine can also increase D-lactic acid [15, 16].

So you argue they result in it, but don't contain it?

 

[ecstatichamster]

It's not true, even small amount of d-lactate gets you to ER. If lactofermented food would have any amount of d-lactate it would never be widespread.

It’s not true??

It is true.

L-lactate and D-lactate - clinical significance of the difference

Sigh.

 

[methylenewhite]

D-Lactic Acidosis: An Underrecognized Complication of Short Bowel Syndrome


So you argue they result in it, but don't contain it?

It’s not true??

It is true.

L-lactate and D-lactate - clinical significance of the difference

Sigh.

Lactic acid from bacteria is d-lactic acid, whereas humans produce l-lactate. The d- version is inflammatory. That’s why Dr. Peat says that yogurt isn’t that great. In addition, fewer gut bacteria is more beneficial, and when you consume fermented products you populate the small intestine with bacteria which isn’t great either.

I'm saying that lactic acid from lactobacteria is mostly L-isomer. D-lactate formation is rare event that requires specific conditions to happen in human body. Any lactofermented product has insignificant/no amount of D-lactate.

"The dextrorotary isomer of lactate was identified as the causative agent of encephalopathy in short gut syndrome in 1979 by Oh et al. [1]. Since then, <50 cases have been thoroughly described in the published literature"

"D-lactate toxicity remains a relatively rare phenomenon in proportion to the large number of patients with gut dysfunction, largely due to its efficient renal excretion. Oh et al. demonstrated that in healthy men continuously infused with a D-lactate solution excretion rates ranged between 61 and 100% [9]. Though toxicity can occur in the context of normal renal function as production overwhelms excretory capacity, the most pronouncedly symptomatic cases (including our own) seem to correlate with renal dysfunction"

"amount of total lactic acid in the
fermented products was in the same range
(.6 to 1.2%) as for lactic acid in fermented
products from other countries. In all
products L(+) lactic acid was the major
isomer formed. Between 0 and 10% of
the total lactic acid was of D(--) con-
figuration in acidophilus milk. In yogurt,
about 400 mg/100 g, or about 40%, of
the total lactic acid was D(--) isomer.

Formation of isomers depends upon type of
microorganism, substrate composition, temper-
ature, pH, time of incubation, storage temper-
ature, storage time, etc"

Yogurt is the only that seems problematic, but there is no mention of strain of lactobacteria. This is old study. Modern culture srarter strains used in commercial lactofermentation are breed/engineered to produce no D-lactate.

 

[schultz]

Fresh yogurt had no sour taste. I've made yogurt in the past and it's strikingly different than store bought untrained yogurt. I had a little taste of normal yogurt at my mom's house recently and it was insanely sour.

Strained yogurt, like Greek yogurt, is fine, though milk is still better nutritionally. (My opinion)

tell this man that yogurt is bad

Does he make yogurt then let it sit on the shelf at the grocery store for a few weeks before consuming it?

 

[Dave Clark]

Fresh yogurt had no sour taste. I've made yogurt in the past and it's strikingly different than store bought untrained yogurt. I had a little taste of normal yogurt at my mom's house recently and it was insanely sour.

Strained yogurt, like Greek yogurt, is fine, though milk is still better nutritionally. (My opinion)



Does he make yogurt then let it sit on the shelf at the grocery store for a few weeks before consuming it?

Some of those cultures did in fact store milk in goat skin, to ferment, turn into yogurt or kefir, and was used on long journeys with their yaks, or in other areas with their camels. The process of taking milk on their journeys, and then subsequently turning into a fermented product was how they discovered they could preserve dairy for long journeys, etc. Not every culture ate it as soon as it was made.

 

[schultz]

Some of those cultures did in fact store milk in goat skin, to ferment, turn into yogurt or kefir, and was used on long journeys with their yaks, or in other areas with their camels. The process of taking milk on their journeys, and then subsequently turning into a fermented product was how they discovered they could preserve dairy for long journeys, etc. Not every culture ate it as soon as it was made.

That's a good point, but possibly it's not how they consumed dairy the majority of the time, or if given the option. Although people do get used to flavours.

I don't know much about the Mongolian diet/eating habits. Although I do remember on the TV series "Human Planet" they did catch a wild lactating mare and milk it. They had to chase it on horse back. I think I'm remembering that correctly.

 

[tankasnowgod]

FWIW, Peat's advice seems to line up with my experience. A small amount of yogurt is fine, but when I've used larger amounts for meals (even greek yogurt), I start to feel weird and sluggish after a few days. I also get a sort of feeling like my GI tract is slowing down, and not feeling good. Never get this from normal cheese or cottage cheese.