Ray Peat On DHAA In Meat: No Need For Ascorbic Acid Supp?

[Blossom]

Harsh conditions of sea are important too. Probably it rises vit C demands and turnover.



I posted about Indian big pharma player already making oxalate metabolizing probiotics. And there is one more Canadian company.
Analysis of commercial kidney stone probiotic supplements

Thank you so much!

 

[yerrag]

Since there's no vitamin C in dried and cured meat, would there be more vitamin in raw meat? Would carpaccio, kibbeh, and ceviche be eaten more often. They already have digestive enzymes in them. More vitamin C would be an added plus.

 

[Blossom]

It has been hypothesized that T-2 and diacetoxyscirpenol are associated with a human disease called alimentary toxic aleukia. The symptoms of the disease include inflammation of the skin, vomiting, and damage to hematopoietic tissues. The acute phase is accompanied by necrosis in the oral cavity, bleeding from the nose, mouth, and vagina, and central nervous system disorders. It is possible that alimentary toxic aleukia may sometimes have been misdiagnosed as diphtheria or scurvy (171).

Mycotoxins exposition in sailors probably a contributive factor.

Mycotoxins

I can only imagine that a ship might be very moldy place to spend an extended amount of time. I could also see misdiagnosis being an issue then as it is now. Thank you for this interesting information.

 

[Philomath]

What about the occasional Steak Tartar ? It’s typically made with raw top sirloin, vinegar, mustard, raw egg, and olive oil. Seems like a great way to get those vitamins...

 

[yerrag]

What about the occasional Steak Tartar ? It’s typically made with raw top sirloin, vinegar, mustard, raw egg, and olive oil. Seems like a great way to get those vitamins...

Haven't had that though have heard of it. That's certainly good.

 

[akgrrrl]

Haven't had that though have heard of it. That's certainly good.

I have served a lot of this. I tried to eat it but gag every time LOL

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Since there's no vitamin C in dried and cured meat, would there be more vitamin in raw meat? Would carpaccio, kibbeh, and ceviche be eaten more often. They already have digestive enzymes in them. More vitamin C would be an added plus.

Raw meat is better than cured meats for sure regarding vitamin C. You can dehydrate meat and still keep it raw. You just have to use a dehydrator and keep the temperature at or lower than 46 degrees celsius, give or take. So you can make a pemmican which still contains vitamin C.

 

[yerrag]

Raw meat is better than cured meats for sure regarding vitamin C. You can dehydrate meat and still keep it raw. You just have to use a dehydrator and keep the temperature at or lower than 46 degrees celsius, give or take. So you can make a pemmican which still contains vitamin C.

I've used a dehydrator to make jerky and kept it at a low temperature which doesn't destroy enzymes so that I can benefit from the digestive power of enzymes when eating the jerky, as this keeps my pancreas from having to produce digestive enzymes as needed for digestion. This saves endogenous enzyme production for other bodily maintenance processes.

However, it's only now that I realize that I'm also preserving intact the DHAA content in meat. So it makes the case for eating raw meat stronger, barring issues of pathogens which proper sourcing and preparation (like freezing for two weeks) would help in.

Have to look at the video yet. Thanks!

Edit: Watched it. Easy peasy making it. Nice to have the blueberries added. I guess I'd have to get used to not having salt in it. Salt may possibly render the jerky devoid of vitamin C and enzymes maybe? Plus I'd make sure the rendered fat or tallow cools down enough to not deactivate the enzymes (and perhaps the vitamin C).

Pemmican seems to me a superior alternative to raw meat as issues with bacteria are lessened. It also stays good for a long time without refrigeration.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I've used a dehydrator to make jerky and kept it at a low temperature which doesn't destroy enzymes so that I can benefit from the digestive power of enzymes when eating the jerky, as this keeps my pancreas from having to produce digestive enzymes as needed for digestion. This saves endogenous enzyme production for other bodily maintenance processes.

However, it's only now that I realize that I'm also preserving intact the DHAA content in meat. So it makes the case for eating raw meat stronger, barring issues of pathogens which proper sourcing and preparation (like freezing for two weeks) would help in.

Have to look at the video yet. Thanks!

Edit: Watched it. Easy peasy making it. Nice to have the blueberries added. I guess I'd have to get used to not having salt in it. Salt may possibly render the jerky devoid of vitamin C and enzymes maybe? Plus I'd make sure the rendered fat or tallow cools down enough to not deactivate the enzymes (and perhaps the vitamin C).

Pemmican seems to me a superior alternative to raw meat as issues with bacteria are lessened. It also stays good for a long time without refrigeration.

You're welcome! I think there is a good case to be made about eating at least some raw meat, with vitamin C being one of the nutrients that are lost during cooking. Creatine is also present in higher amounts in uncooked meat.

Yeah, it's pretty straight-forward making pemmican. One could even add other dried berries or even dried fruits to improve both the taste as well as the amount the carbs in the pemmican. I think honey would go really well with it, but I never tested it. Good point about the temperature of the fat. I think tallow melts at around 35 degrees celsius, and you could even heat it up to 46º celsius while still keeping it at a raw temperature.

For sure, pemmican lacks water, so it lasts way longer than fresh meat. Also, it's much more convenient to carry pemmican around than fresh meat. It will make you thirsty, but you could even drink juice to quench the thirst instead of water. That way, there is more room for nutrient dense foods( juice, milk, coffee, some teas, etc.).

About whether or not to salt the pemmican, I'm not really sure if the salt decreases the vitamin c content. People who ate mostly salted meat got scurvy, according to Vilhjalmur Stefansson, but when they salt the meat, they don't dehydrate it completely, right? Maybe that's why it doesn't preserve the DHAA as well.

 

[yerrag]

If the European sailors brought pemmican with them on trans - oceanic voyages then, they would not have issues with scurvy. Pemmican for interplanetary travel!

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

If the European sailors brought pemmican with them on trans - oceanic voyages then, they would not have issues with scurvy. Pemmican for interplanetary travel!

 

[Amazoniac]

- The Value of Meat as an Antiscorbutic

 

[yerrag]

- The Value of Meat as an Antiscorbutic

Thanks. Freshly killed meat vs. fresh meat (like meat not freshly killed) - big difference in vitamin C content.

I suppose meat that you buy in the public market - beef, pork, chicken, and fresh catch of the day fish - that has never been frozen - has more vitamin C than meat bought in the supermarket, which has undergone freezing. This reminds of a Youtube video on China that talks about why many Chinese don't have refrigerators and freezers. They drink hot, and prefer buying fresh meat and produce, and have no need to freeze and refrigerate. Now it makes sense, even on a vitamin C standpoint alone.

So, the pemmican may still be antiscorbutic, but it won't be very rich in vitamin C.

Even eating raw meat that's been frozen has less vitamin C than freshly killed raw meat. Fresh carpaccio and steak tartar - that has to be the best, bacteria concerns aside. I suppose that is possible if you trust your butcher. Ceviche from freshly caught fish - easy when you live near the sea and can buy such fish in the public market.

 

[Amazoniac]

There's a guy named Frank Tufano that uploaded a video quoting the following review:
- An overview of the nutritional value of beef and lamb meat from South America

⬑ Influence of pasture or grain-based diets supplemented with vitamin E on antioxidant/oxidative balance of Argentine beef

Spoiler

 

[yerrag]

There's a guy named Frank Tufano that uploaded a video quoting the following review:
- An overview of the nutritional value of beef and lamb meat from South America

⬑ Influence of pasture or grain-based diets supplemented with vitamin E on antioxidant/oxidative balance of Argentine beef

Spoiler

View attachment 16581

Holy smokes! Grain-fed beef has more SFA and less PUFA than pasture-fed beef!

Thanks Amazoniac. I always liked grain-fed beef more as it tastes so much better, but thought all the time the enjoyment has a lot to do with it being BAD!!!

As it is with the sheer pleasure of enjoying real sugar Coke, more enjoyment equates to more health, even discounting for the dopamine hit.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I think the main problem with grain- fed meat is that they're given more antibiotics, as well as atrazine, which is very estrogenic. The atrazine issue is a problem mostly in the EUA, as far as I know.

Grain- fed beef also has a higher water content due to edema, which means the animals were stressed before slaughter, and it isn't as nutritious as grass- fed beef( vitamin C is almost twice as high, according to the table Amazoniac posted)

The PUFA part is interesting, because, in this analysis, grass- fed beef has way less PUFA:
Fatty Acid Analysis of Grass-fed and Grain-fed Beef Tallow - The Weston A. Price Foundation

 

[yerrag]

I think the main problem with grain- fed meat is that they're given more antibiotics, as well as atrazine, which is very estrogenic. The atrazine issue is a problem mostly in the EUA, as far as I know.

Grain- fed beef also has a higher water content due to edema, which means the animals were stressed before slaughter, and it isn't as nutritious as grass- fed beef( vitamin C is almost twice as high, according to the table Amazoniac posted)

The PUFA part is interesting, because, in this analysis, grass- fed beef has way less PUFA:
Fatty Acid Analysis of Grass-fed and Grain-fed Beef Tallow - The Weston A. Price Foundation

Thats interesting, as data is contradictory.

However, the vitamin C from pasture fed beef being more is a plus for pasture fed.

And the other issues associated with grain fed beef are concerns.

Being edematous is a sign of poor health, as we all would know, but it makes me wonder if that has anything to with making meat more tender.

I have a hard time making my pork chops tender lately. I asked my regular vendor, and I'm told it's because a lot of hog raiser are culling the mother pigs, and what I'm getting are very mature (old) pigs (the African Swine Fever virus epidemic is still happening). The reasoning is that the older the pig, the tougher the meat is.

But what if mother pigs are raised to be healthier, and being so are not edematous?

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

He's clearly talking about Shawn Baker here, btw.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Thats interesting, as data is contradictory.

However, the vitamin C from pasture fed beef being more is a plus for pasture fed.

And the other issues associated with grain fed beef are concerns.

Being edematous is a sign of poor health, as we all would know, but it makes me wonder if that has anything to with making meat more tender.

I have a hard time making my pork chops tender lately. I asked my regular vendor, and I'm told it's because a lot of hog raiser are culling the mother pigs, and what I'm getting are very mature (old) pigs (the African Swine Fever virus epidemic is still happening). The reasoning is that the older the pig, the tougher the meat is.

But what if mother pigs are raised to be healthier, and being so are not edematous?

Grain- fed meat tends to be more tender than grass- fed, and it has a less strong flavor( when cooked). As Frank says, when people cook their grain- fed steaks, that masks the off-taste of the fat, so people don't notice how bad the fat really tastes.

I think older meat is always tougher, so I think feeding pigs a correct diet( letting them roam free on pasture, giving them low- PUFA feed, avoding antibiotics, vaccines, etc.) as well as slaughtering them at an earlier age will produce not only more nutritious meat, but also a more tender one.

 

[yerrag]

Grain- fed meat tends to be more tender than grass- fed, and it has a less strong flavor( when cooked). As Frank says, when people cook their grain- fed steaks, that masks the off-taste of the fat, so people don't notice how bad the fat really tastes.

I think older meat is always tougher, so I think feeding pigs a correct diet( letting them roam free on pasture, giving them low- PUFA feed, avoding antibiotics, vaccines, etc.) as well as slaughtering them at an earlier age will produce not only more nutritious meat, but also a more tender one.

I have the impression that the renowned Kobe beef isn't beef made from cows that roam freely. They were even grown with mellow classical music. Their muscles are not used as much and are therefore more tender.

I've also made pork chops made from pork from US supermarkets and from Philippine wet markets. The American pork chops are way more tender, and I still haven't found a way to cook pork chops that are as tender. I suspect the water content in American pork chops are way higher, lending to its tenderness, but I could be wrong.

The way I make my chops is to sear one side on high heat for a minute, and then turn over to the other side, and on medium heat, cook it for another. minute or two covered with a lid, so that the pork cooks in its own steam from its juice. I think the American pork let's off more steam, and gets the pork cooked in less time.

I suspect the American pork producers either make the pig edematous or maybe in the processing inject moisture into the pork.