Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia

[tara]

I don't think you can satisfy your nutrients requirements without eating a lot of calories, but it's possible to eat a lot calories without satisfying the demand of nutrients, if you don't eat enough nutrient dense foods and enough variety, that's why I choose to emphasize the nutrients aspect. Once you satisfy it, you also get the required amount of calories.

You may be right, that if you are to get all the micronutrients you need for a healthy metobolism from food, that it would be hard to do that without also getting enough calories. Especially given the minerally depleted state of many of our soils. And probably getting all our nutrients from food would be ideal. I also agree that it is possible to eat a lot of calories while eating a very micronutrient deficient diet. I'm not in favour of only thinking about calories and forgetting the rest.

Couldn't one eat 1l oj, 2l skim milk, vege broth, eggs incl shells, liver, oysters and gelatine every day, and be not too badly off for protein and micronutrients, but way under calorie requirements?

However, a number of people on this forum use concentrated supplements to meet some of their micronutrient demands, and this can make it look as though micronutrient needs are satisfied while running a severe fuel deficit. And there are people here who say they meet cronometer's requirements while eating under 2000 calories a day, which is not enough. Aren't there a number of ex-low-carbers who ate a nutrient dense diet that drove their metabolism into the ground, and found it started to improve by adding in white rice, which doesn't have a lot going for it other than the carbohydrate itself? And the culture routinely gives messages about calories being bad.

There are people here who have been supplementing thyroid while eating well under 2000 calories/day.

I think people have quoted Peat as suggesting eating sucrose temporarily when suitable fruit is not available?

In the context of people who have been chronically undereating to the point where fuel deficiency may be causal in our reduced metabolism, I think it's important to think about meeting this macronutrient nutrient requirement along with all the others.

 

[j.]

I think it's very hard to meet your protein requirements while eating low calorie. Even if you use gelatin, which is basically concentrated protein, you need to get a lot of sugar with it to not only feel good, but also to not have that protein used as energy and wasted. I don't think someone will be able to consume a lot of gelatin without sugar and not have strong cravings for sugar. If one does have the mentality that a lot of calories are bad, maybe they won't eat the sugar, but we tend to encourage to eat as much sugar as one wants.

 

[tara]

I think it's very hard to meet your protein requirements while eating low calorie.

It may be hard, but there are quite a lot of paleos and low-carbers who manage to do it for long enough to cause themselves problems.

Even if you use gelatin, which is basically concentrated protein, you need to get a lot of sugar with it .... to not have that protein used as energy and wasted.

Yes, I agree with this.

....to not only feel good, but also ...

I partly agree with this, but it is also a bit circular. For those who can notice and follow their desire for sugar and it results in healthy energy balance, that's great. If this is the case or you, then good on you.

Many of us came here because we don't/didn't feel good, and we hope for help to figure out how to improve our health and feel better. There are many parameters that can be adjusted, and which ones are key differs from person to person. If doing what makes us feel good were easy and always lead to better health, we would get ourselves out of our imbalances more easily than we do.

For people who have undereaten for a while, appetite is not always a reliable guide. Once a habit of undereating is established, it can be easier to follow the habit than break it. It can be hard to listen to our appetite if we have been in the habit of overriding it for a long time. And the appetite can adjust to supporting a reduced metabolism.

Appetite can disappear when one's energy is low and one most needs to eat.

According to Gwyneth, there is an additional neurological factor that can be triggered for people in the REDs spectrum that can make them feel better when they eat too little and worse when they eat enough (food gets identified as a threat). This is part of why it is dangerous, and can lead people to die of starvation amongst plenty, either quickly or slowly. When this is going on, relying on appetite is unlikely to lead them to eat enough. That's why I think focussing on it migt be useful.

I don't think someone will be able to consume a lot of gelatin without sugar and not have strong cravings for sugar.

I usually eat a soup made of stock and vegetables for dinner.It has a good amount of gelatin in it, not much carbohydrate, tastes OK to me, and I don't crave sugar with this meal. I even have experience of sleeping well through the night with not much more than this to eat in the evening. But if I don't remind myself to eat more in the evening, I can have trouble functioning the next morning, and my energy can be so low that my appetite has trouble getting me to eat much breakfast, and I'm into a bad cycle. I'm not wanting to focus on my own experience in this thread, but just offering a counter-example.

If one does have the mentality that a lot of calories are bad, maybe they won't eat the sugar, but we tend to encourage to eat as much sugar as one wants.

One of the reasons I started this thread is specifically to counter this cultural message that calories are bad, by pointing to counter evidence. I think this encouragement to eat sugar is important.

 

[j.]

I usually eat a soup made of stock and vegetables for dinner.It has a good amount of gelatin in it, not much carbohydrate, tastes OK to me, and I don't crave sugar with this meal.

I meant gelatin powder. It's hard to consume a lot of gelatin powder without sugar cravings, if you're consuming a full meal with gelatin you're already getting calories. It's been a few posts, the context was the idea that with supplements one can satisfy the requirements with few calories, I wanted to say that the protein aspect would be hard to satisfy that way. I agree that if one ignores sugar cravings, then they might not eat a lot of calories. I'd say that if they don't eat sugar with proteins they're not satisfying their protein requirements, because the protein will likely be converted and used as sugar and not as protein.

 

[Blossom]

Last week I decided to experiment with increasing my calories to 2,500 per day after reading your posts tara. I thought prior to that I was doing great eating 1,800-2,000 per day because the cronometer recommends about 1,600 for someone my age, height and weight for maintenance. I would never have considered myself as having an eating disorder but I did follow flawed medical advice in the past by eating a paleo diet for a year and a half. Damage was done from that and it doesn't matter to my body if I thought of it on my own or did it under medical supervision. I bet there are others like me who engaged in restrictive eating and could benefit from eating more calories. I was satisfied with 2,000 because I had come from a background that provided so much less. I also feel I lost the ability somewhat to know and feel what was enough food after being deprived for so long. I was simply satisfied when it wasn't enough for complete healing for me personally with my background. I probably would have continued eating that suboptimal amount and thought of it as fine and adequate if not for your post. To me this is quite Peaty! I'm warmer, calmer and thinking in a new way about weight and what's important to me. Thanks tara!

 

[tara]

I meant gelatin powder. It's hard to consume a lot of gelatin powder without sugar cravings...

True for me too. I don't know if this applies to everyone.

... if you're consuming a full meal with gelatin you're already getting calories.

True, but circular. As i said, I've eaten meals with lots of gelatin that did not have many calories, and you could reasonably say they weren't full meals. If they'd had more calories, they would have been fuller meals.

I agree that if one ignores sugar cravings, then they might not eat a lot of calories. I'd say that if they don't eat sugar with proteins they're not satisfying their protein requirements, because the protein will likely be converted and used as sugar and not as protein.

I agree with this. One way to address this might be to make sure to get enough calories in that the body doesn't use all the protein for fuel.

 

[SQu]

Tara this topic is so central for me, and you and others have put so much thought into your posts, that I have to take my time and digest it all. But one thing I can give feedback on right now is the sat fat thing you mentioned on page 1.
I've been avoiding pufas for many years before (like since my kids were born, 17 years ago), but I low carbed for 7 years and during this time all that fat probably meant that I was inadvertently eating more pufa than I realized. That and the fish oil I think I got an age spot then, that would fit.
When I stopped dieting and just ate what I wanted I put on all the weight, and during this time, it must have been mostly saturated as I was by then not having fish oil or lots of fat or meat anymore. Plenty of carbs, sugar and starch.
But that's also when my health went downhill, hair greyed (actually whitened, patchily), the aches, the edema, the fatigue, the strength and muscle loss, the worsening insomnia, the whole lot.
So going by my own experience I think that weight gain even when it's saturated fat you're storing, is what made me feel, walk, sleep, act, even in some ways look, 99.
Sadly.

 

[Blossom]

Tara this topic is so central for me, and you and others have put so much thought into your posts, that I have to take my time and digest it all. But one thing I can give feedback on right now is the sat fat thing you mentioned on page 1.
I've been avoiding pufas for many years before (like since my kids were born, 17 years ago), but I low carbed for 7 years and during this time all that fat probably meant that I was inadvertently eating more pufa than I realized. That and the fish oil I think I got an age spot then, that would fit.
When I stopped dieting and just ate what I wanted I put on all the weight, and during this time, it must have been mostly saturated as I was by then not having fish oil or lots of fat or meat anymore. Plenty of carbs, sugar and starch.
But that's also when my health went downhill, hair greyed (actually whitened, patchily), the aches, the edema, the fatigue, the strength and muscle loss, the worsening insomnia, the whole lot.
So going by my own experience I think that weight gain even when it's saturated fat you're storing, is what made me feel, walk, sleep, act, even in some ways look, 99.
Sadly.

At least we are on the right track now. Sometimes it takes time, patience and effort to repair the damage from dieting but I think it's worth it. The alternative is to continue to go down hill and feel even worse after all. From reading your posts you've really come a long way sueq!

 

[SQu]

Yes I have blossom! I'm just sleeping so badly it's affecting my mood .

 

[SAFarmer]

Firstly I also want to thank Tara for this thread. I think she is one smart woman.
I enjoyed a lot of the info and research from eatopia website.

Ray Peat has said or written often that he looks at how much people eat as a sign of hypothyroidism, and if they eat too little he gets suspicious. He definitely would like to see healthy people eat enough calories ie > 2500 .

Also in the Minnesota semi-starvation experiment (1500 cal / day ) of Ancel Keys he made the point, emphasized it actually, that those men only regained their health and weight with enormous amounts of calories when refed, and that minerals and vitamins on their own, without the extra calories, did very little or nothing.

so again Tara, thanks ! :1

 

[jaywills]

SAFArmer is spot on regarding calories...

"Enough food must be supplied to allow tissues destroyed during starvation to be rebuilt … our experiments have shown that in an adult man no appreciable rehabilitation can take place on a diet of 2000 calories [actually 2000 kcal (8368 kJ)] a day. The proper level is more like 4000 [4000 kcal (16,736 kJ)] daily for some months. The character of the rehabilitation diet is important also, but unless calories are abundant, then extra proteins, vitamins and minerals are of little value (20)." - Ancel Keys.

the rest of a very good article on the experiment can be found here for anybody that wants further info: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/6/1347.full

 

[charlie]

 

[jyb]

Also in the Minnesota semi-starvation experiment (1500 cal / day ) of Ancel Keys he made the point, emphasized it actually, that those men only regained their health and weight with enormous amounts of calories when refed, and that minerals and vitamins on their own, without the extra calories, did very little or nothing.

I think that's very interesting. I don't know much about Keys but doesn't this message contradict a bit his (horrendous) guidelines of low-fat diet (esp low sat fat)? That would likely not be so high in calories.

 

[SAFarmer]

Also in the Minnesota semi-starvation experiment (1500 cal / day ) of Ancel Keys he made the point, emphasized it actually, that those men only regained their health and weight with enormous amounts of calories when refed, and that minerals and vitamins on their own, without the extra calories, did very little or nothing.

I think that's very interesting. I don't know much about Keys but doesn't this message contradict a bit his (horrendous) guidelines of low-fat diet (esp low sat fat)? That would likely not be so high in calories.

I think what people forget is that Keys was a VERY good scientist.
This starvation experiment was when he was younger and before his diet studies.
There are a lot of misconceptions about Keys.

 

[CellularIconoclast]

I think what people forget is that Keys was a VERY good scientist.
This starvation experiment was when he was younger and before his diet studies.
There are a lot of misconceptions about Keys.

I think the only way to understand nutritional biology is to read the primary literature yourself, starting with Lamarck or even further back. Misconceptions are the rule, and even people who write textbooks don't seem to read or understand the research they cite.

 

[tara]

Re: Recovery from undereating - Keys Starvation Experiment

And a lot of the symptoms of semi-starvation that Key described in his study seem similar to the symptoms associated here with hypothyroidism. There's are nice description from the participants in the article Jaywills linked:

As semistarvation progressed, the enthusiasm of the participants waned; the men became increasingly irritable and inpatient with one another and began to suffer the powerful physical effect of limited food. Carlyle Frederick remembered “… noticing what’s wrong with everybody else, even your best friend. Their idiosyncrasies became great big deals … little things that wouldn’t bother me before or after would really make me upset.” Marshall Sutton noted, “… we were impatient waiting in line if we had to … and we’d get disturbed with each other’s eating habits at times … I remember going to a friend at night and apologizing and saying, ‘Oh, I was terrible today, and you know, let’s go to sleep with other thoughts in our minds.’ We became, in a sense, more introverted, and we had less energy. I knew where all the elevators were in the buildings.” The men reported decreased tolerance for cold temperatures, and requested additional blankets even in the middle of summer. They experienced dizziness, extreme tiredness, muscle soreness, hair loss, reduced coordination, and ringing in their ears. Several were forced to withdraw from their university classes because they simply didn’t have the energy or motivation to attend and concentrate (3).

In this experiment, they all standardised on 3200 calories before the semi-starvation phase - this was seen as an appropriate healthy level for a group of men from early 20s to early 30s. Their subsequent restricted diet was individualised to get them to lose 25% bodyweight - but was of the order of half their healthy intake at just below 1600.

My understanding was that as primary research, the Starvation Experiment included some sound science and yielded a lot of valuable data. Whereas the hypothesis Keys later proposed about saturated fat being a problem was more a matter of cherry picking epidemiological data to support a hunch he believed in, and therefore not sound science. But that's based on references, not reading his own work - does that tally?

 

[tara]

Re: Recovery from undereating - Keys' Starvation Experiment

And more symptom descriptions:

The men became more noticeable around campus as they began to manifest visible signs of starvation, sunken faces and bellies, protruding ribs, and edema-swollen legs, ankles, and faces. Other problems such as anemia, neurological deficits, and skin changes became apparent.

The St. Paul Dispatch reported: “… the … men on the starvation diet have lost so much physically and mentally that their ambition is gone, their will to go forward is gone, and they cannot do heavy work such as farming, mining, forestry, lifting and many other types of work necessary to rebuild war-torn Europe”

And after 3 months of rehabilitation (more like 4000 kcal), when they were released, some of them still had extreme hunger (Gwyneth writes about this too), and stuffed themselves at the first opportunity.

Estimates for how long it took to fully recover ranged from 2 mo to 2 y,...

I think his study also showed a weight overshoot for some of the men - most of whom returned to their pre-experiment weight.

 

[tara]

Re: Recovery from undereating - Keys' Starvation Experiment

So if you are suffering a few of these symptoms, it might be worth checking if you've been eating closer to 1600 or 3200 kcal, and considering that rebuilding may take even more.

 

[Blossom]

I haven't read all of Key's work myself but I have no doubt that he could be a great scientist who did some valuable work and yet drew some flawed conclusions later about saturated fat. He was a human after all. The starvation study seems very important. It's a shame that like so many other great scientific works it hasn't seemed to have made much of an impact. I think there is a major disconnect in medicine and popular culture when it comes to weight issues. I remember a physician friend of mine being highly concerned about my weight gain and warning me to keep it under control when I weighed only 108 pounds. Truly sad. Thanks for bringing this topic to the forum Tara! It's invaluable.

 

[SAFarmer]

What is interesting is that those men's initial weight recovery was mostly flab by their own admission, possibly mostly fat and watery tissue, and they said that getting their muscle back was very hard work ! If I remember correctly their avg starting weight, before the exp, was around 70kg, on a 3200 cal diet ! That is lean in my book on a high cal diet.

I bought and read the book, The Great Starvation Experiment: The Heroic Men Who Starved so That Millions Could Live, by Todd Tucker a while back and it gave me good insight into Keys and the experiment data.