Retinil - Liquid Vitamin A

[Epistrophy]

@Amazoniac That dose I took was a random dose based on what @haidut mention was a dose for acne (males 400,000 IU) and I took 4 times less just to be safe. It turned out that for me that dose had a great physiological response.

In response to physiological doses, I am sure every single person has there own physiological dose that is appropriate for them and any given time. Plus I believe 3 ounces of beef liver has about 25,000 IU vitamin A, depends how much gets absorb of course. I would not even know how much of 100,000 IU oral dose was absorbed into my cells. I may only used 10,000 IU not sure.

So in light of me not knowing any upper limit dose that an average population can tolerate with out toxicity, I asked the question. Which my curious self always does when I have no clue about something.

I respect your concern that the dose I mentioned might be way over exceeding studies. It was interesting that for me that dose was in a positive direction and now I can just take lower dose more often or just use liver.

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac That dose I took was a random dose based on what @haidut mention was a dose for acne (males 400,000 IU) and I took 4 times less just to be safe. It turned out that for me that dose had a great physiological response.

In response to physiological doses, I am sure every single person has there own physiological dose that is appropriate for them and any given time. Plus I believe 3 ounces of beef liver has about 25,000 IU vitamin A, depends how much gets absorb of course. I would not even know how much of 100,000 IU oral dose was absorbed into my cells. I may only used 10,000 IU not sure.

So in light of me not knowing any upper limit dose that an average population can tolerate with out toxicity, I asked the question. Which my curious self always does when I have no clue about something.

I respect your concern that the dose I mentioned might be way over exceeding studies. It was interesting that for me that dose was in a positive direction and now I can just take lower dose more often or just use liver.

In my opinion I would leave these chemotherapeutic ranges for serious conditions because they will come with side effects, especially if dosed chronically.

Adsorption efficiency is usually around 70-90% for preformed poison. When it's purified, it tends to be greater, but we can assume 70,000 IU was adsorbed for example.

As far as I can tell, the amount in a serving of Poisonil isn't adjusted for poisonol activity equivalence, and this can be a source of confusion.

From that thread (I know some of you is familiar with the idea, but others may be overlooking it):
- Vitamin A | Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety

So for the versions of Poisonil..

• acetate: 2400 IU * (870/1000) = 2100 IU of poison A eq.
  
• palmitate: 5000 IU * (550/1000) = 2750 IU of poison A eq.

If my interpretation of his label is right, 100,000 IU of poisonyl palmitate is equivalent to 55,000 IU of poisonol (minus what escapes digestion in your case).

However! There is a correction to my previous post: I mentioned 50,000 IU for the first link, but it wased in fact 15,000 IU of poison A used in the experiment. The toxin was given as part of a meal containing only 1.3 g of fat ('fat-free') or with 40 g of butter/olive oil/sunnyflower oil. The composition of the fats affected how it was esterified in the intestines during adsorption, but what's curious is that when this 15,000 IU dose (which they consider'd to be high) was ingested with little fat, a great deal of plain poisonol spilled over to circulation unsterified, which isn't great.

Spoiler: Fig. 2

Maybe your needs are extraordinary, but this is not a justification to concentrate the poison in ein weekly dose. Why going pharma if there's a safer and more physiological way of dosing?


--
Guru, have you ever thought about labeling the fat-soluble vitamins in thy products in metric units? International Unit is falling into disuse (it was commented with Pompadourable on Grant's thread), just like the Blue Units once used for poison/"vitamin" A. Check out the RDAs, they're no longer specified in IU.

It makes no sense to use it if there's a system that we is more habituated with, making it more practical for us to compare and relativize. In the case of these toxins, we can relate mass to their biological effects without issues. No reason not to abandon it other than giving our share in prolonging this inconvenient.. convention.

I just visit'd the Ideal Laboratories website to confirm that your OistrusBan labels the antidotes in metric units and the toxins in IU.

 

[Amazoniac]

We can take a few thousand IU of poison A, yet circulating levels are in mcg/dl. If we had in mind the dose in mcg, we would know that the person can have 3000 mcg of poisonol circulating and this coincides with the amount taken. Similar for venom D.

You can specify the concentration in liver as IU of poison A/g of tissue, but isn't it better to know right away that you have for example 50 mcg of poison A/g of tissue?

And so on.

Compare these:

A: 5,000 IU
D: 2,000 IU
E: 65 mg (100 IU)
K: 2 mg

A: 1.5 mg
D: 0.05 mg
E: 65 mg
K: 2 mg​

International Units is the creation of a new unit for every substance since it doesn't relate to anything other than a few alike ones before you get used to it and inevitably start to compare, I find it a counterproductive complication for the most part. Having a standardized system makes it easier to do a connections.

 

[Momado965]

Have you tested your vitamin A and/or D levels? Low vitamin D levels often cause issues when supplementing with A. Also, vitamin A lowers/blocks cortisol and this can lead to feeling tired if thyroid function is also low and cannot pick up the slack from lowered cortisol.
Vitamin A Lowers High Cortisol Levels (Cushing Disease)
Vitamin A (retinol derivatives) is an anti-cortisol agent

Do you think palminate version can do thid as in block cortisol as well or is this effect a feature of retinil acetate only?

 

[Epistrophy]

Took 25,000 IU with 8 drops Tocovit 5 minutes after a drinking my homemade smoothie and while driving noticed I do not have the random abdominal discomfort I usually have the past 3 years.

Definitely feels as if my peritoneum is not compacted and organs flowing in the fascia normally. Also, reminded me how my client described how cypro makes him feels for his chron’s.

Thought it was interesting

 

[haidut]

Do you think palminate version can do thid as in block cortisol as well or is this effect a feature of retinil acetate only?

Both the palmitate and acetate are esters and while they may have some direct anti-cortisol effects most of the effects probably manifests after they get converted into retinol and more so retinoic acid.

 

[haidut]

Took 25,000 IU with 8 drops Tocovit 5 minutes after a drinking my homemade smoothie and while driving noticed I do not have the random abdominal discomfort I usually have the past 3 years.

Definitely feels as if my peritoneum is not compacted and organs flowing in the fascia normally. Also, reminded me how my client described how cypro makes him feels for his chron’s.

Thought it was interesting

Very interesting, thanks! So, I guess vitamin E and A mutually help each other's absorption/effects. It is not just vitamin E protecting from vitamin A side effects.

 

[Epistrophy]

Very interesting, thanks! So, I guess vitamin E and A mutually help each other's absorption/effects. It is not just vitamin E protecting from vitamin A side effects.

That could be happening. It seems to also increase the speed at which absorption/effects happen because it was like 10-15 minutes to feel the effects!

 

[chimdp]

@haidut I realize the fat solubles need to be in balance, but I haven't heard much in terms of high dose Vit D causing issues with not concurrently taking enough (higher than the RDA) Vitamin A. I tend to hear more about issues from people taking too much A while having a low vitamin D status. Is it possible that taking 8000IU Vit D daily for a long time could end up causing issues (low Vit A symptoms, or other issues) if one only was only getting a regular intake of vitamin A?

I currently get about 63% of my vitamin A daily from liverwurst (US Wellness Meats), maybe another 10% from Ghee, and the rest from beta-carotene (for what its worth, genetic testing show i might have some SNPs that indicate poor beta-carotene conversion). The reason I ask and bring all this up is in the past couple months I've developed dry flakey skin and acne on my scalp, the rest of my body has occasional acne, but the scalp is out of control for some reason. I was thinking of using a bottle of Retinil I have to up my vitamin A intake to balance out the vitamin D. Or even if it's not the vit D/vit A balance, maybe the extra vit A will help with the acne? I do get good amounts of Vit E and K from Mitolipin, TocoVit, Kuinone. About 200-300IU/day Vit E and 2mg/day Vit K2.

 

[Mauritio]

@haidut
I am reacting great to your retinil...
Higher libido , lower stress more tired feeling ,which is good for me .
Harder and bigger muscles.
Only my face and ears are a bit red I guess that's hypoglycemia but not sure ...
I don't react good to vitamin e (allergic reaction) . This question goes out to all: can you also compensate vitamin a's unsaturatedness with taking aspirin?

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

It smells like Louisiana hot sauce

 

[Amazoniac]

@haidut
I am reacting great to your retinil...
Higher libido , lower stress more tired feeling ,which is good for me .
Harder and bigger muscles.
Only my face and ears are a bit red I guess that's hypoglycemia but not sure ...
I don't react good to vitamin e (allergic reaction) . This question goes out to all: can you also compensate vitamin a's unsaturatedness with taking aspirin?

If you're using the palmitate version of Poisonil, 17% of its volume is vitamin E (Dinkov, 2017). I'm going by his values because he knows what was used to stipulate the standard measures, and the same drop provides about 5000 IU (or 1.5 mg after multiplying by 0.3) of poisonyl palmitate, this would be equivalent to 0.825 mg (1.5 mg * 0.55) of plain poisonol. I suppose then that Jorgito asks to concentrate it as 2% (0.825/40) of the volume, giving you a ratio of vitamin E 8.5:1 poisonol, from 17%/2%.

After a quick buttery search in the USDA database, you have '2.3 mg of vitamin E' with '0.7 mg of poisonol and equivalents' in every 100 g, giving you a ratio of 3.5:1. It would be preferable to adjust based on molecules, but since it's for the sake of comparison between sources, it's enough to tell that there's more vitamin E in relation to poisonol in Poisonil than in butter. Doing the same with liver would give it an unfair advantage (Asprey, 2014) because the imbalance in this regard is greater.

The post hasn't changed a thing in your life, you'll forget that you ever read it in 3, 2, 1..

Spoiler

Proceed with your life:
- Ray Peat Forum

 

[Mauritio]

If you're using the palmitate version of Poisonil, 17% of its volume is vitamin E (Dinkov, 2017). I'm going by his values because he knows what was used to stipulate the standard measures, and the same drop provides about 5000 IU (or 1.5 mg after multiplying by 0.3) of poisonyl palmitate, this would be equivalent to 0.825 mg (1.5 mg * 0.55) of plain poisonol. I suppose then that Jorgito asks to concentrate it as 2% (0.825/40) of the volume, giving you a ratio of vitamin E 8.5:1 poisonol, from 17%/2%.

After a quick buttery search in the USDA database, you have '2.3 mg of vitamin E' with '0.7 mg of poisonol and equivalents' in every 100 g, giving you a ratio of 3.5:1. It would be preferable to adjust based on molecules, but since it's for the sake of comparison between sources, it's enough to tell that there's more vitamin E in relation to poisonol in Poisonil than in butter. Doing the same with liver would give it an unfair advantage (Asprey, 2014) because the imbalance in this regard is greater.

The post hasn't changed a thing in your life, you'll forget that you ever read it in 3, 2, 1..

Spoiler

View attachment 15062

Proceed with your life:
- Ray Peat Forum

So you are on the Vitamin A bashing train as well ,arent you ? I havent looked into it much but I just cant believe that RP would be so wrong about something so fundamental...
BTW I use retinyl acetate.

 

[Amazoniac]

So you are on the Vitamin A bashing train as well ,arent you ? I havent looked into it much but I just cant believe that RP would be so wrong about something so fundamental...
BTW I use retinyl acetate.

There's nothing to bash, it's proper reclassification and everything starts to make sense. The confusion has been going for a century, so a brave and lucid mind had to interrupt it at some point. Thanks to Garrett Smith, we can now affirm that it's not an essential nutrient, but a toxin (and of course dispensable), and a harsh one. On the bright side, throughout evolution, we were forced to develop means of minimizing the harm from detoxification, which is accomplished by storing it for disposal at opportune times. A mango others, the eyes are such places, which is why he asserted that..

If you like your eyes, you shouldn't like Poison/"Vitamin A".

Your 'RP' must stand for Ray Peat, not Republic of the Philippines, or Retinyl Palmitate since it can't have an opinion, it's just a weapon for mass poisoning. But he's just a researcher that has dispersed his focus on useless activities like painting and philosophizing, while the guy above complemented his knowledge with credentialed practical experience. He perceived (as a toxin), hysterisized (on its nature to everyone), and acted (advising committed depletion), unfortunately there wasn't much room left for thinking, but it doesn't change the fact that it's poisonous and should be banned.


Are you using the acetate version to avoid vitamin E? It probably undergoes hydrolysis and esterification regardless of the route, so if you're using for maintenance (or in moderated doses) instead of a particular reason, you could be opting for a more irritating and fast-acting form than the long-chain esters that predominate in foods. The palmitate should be the one that causes the least suffering. The MCT oil in it also makes it gentler on skin.


--
- Repeated topical treatment, in contrast to single oral doses, with Vitamin A-containing preparations does not affect plasma concentrations of retinol, retinyl esters or retinoic acids in female subjects of child-bearing age

Spoiler: Plasma poisonoids after different regimens

"An amount of 3.5±0.5 g of cream was applied daily per subject, which comprised 9±1.5 mg of retinol or 16±2.7 mg of retinyl palmitate, corresponding to a daily application of Vitamin A at approximately 30,000 IU (29,700±5000)."

- Unoccluded Retinol Penetrates Human Skin In Vivo More Effectively Than Unoccluded Retinyl Palmitate or Retinoic Acid

 

[Blossom]

@Mauritio, he (amazoniac) is not on the A bashing train. He is just trying to educate people and get them to think critically for themselves imo.

 

[Mauritio]

@Mauritio, he (amazoniac) is not on the A bashing train. He is just trying to educate people and get them to think critically for themselves imo.

It just doesn't make sense to me that the forum is so divided in this matter. Peat and haidut think its a healthy vitamin with many benefits like the potential to treat autism and others think its a poison that should be banned. That just leaves me confused.
Right now I dont have the time to go through the studies or a 300 page thread about it ,but there will be some time in the future where this thing will be my topic ...

 

[Amazoniac]

about topical A not raising plasma levels, does that mean it was not absorbed, or that it was absorbed and went to other areas of the body? I'm really on the fence about the vitamin A thing as well. Part of me says don't take any, because my diet is grass-fed meat , eggs, and dairy, and then the other half of me says I am not sure if I should have more, or not. Needless to say, this forum doesn't help any with making up one's mind, poison or elixir, who knows?

That was strange. Since tests were run for a day, for the toxin to spread, it had to circulate through blood. What I can think of is that it wasn't reaching other parts (metabolized locally?), freaky poisonoids that wasn't accounted for, or their appearance in the bloody stream was smooth, tissues were using it up at an increased rate and prevented the rise. To make it more strange, all metabolites evaluated dropped in relation to pre-contamination.

 

[Lucenzo01]

The most undervalued haidut's sup. I have a voracious need for vitamins A. And not any vitamin A but this one. @haidut , is there any chance you could make a super charged retinil in DMSO for people who need megadoses? I have checked the solubility of retinyl acetate in DMSO and it's pretty high. I will make my own if necessary (I'm spending a fortune in retinil) but I trust your quality. Thanks for everything (again)

 

[golder]

The most undervalued haidut's sup. I have a voracious need for vitamins A. And not any vitamin A but this one. @haidut , is there any chance you could make a super charged retinil in DMSO for people who need megadoses? I have checked the solubility of retinyl acetate in DMSO and it's pretty high. I will make my own if necessary (I'm spending a fortune in retinil) but I trust your quality. Thanks for everything (again)

Oral or topical? What dose and timings? Palmitate or the other one?

 

[Lucenzo01]

Oral or topical? What dose and timings? Palmitate or the other one?

Topical, 4 drops after meals, acetate