SIBO - another antibiotic along with Rifaximin

[Markr2d2]

Hello, what method did you use to determine you had an overgrowth of Klebsiella? and there is a correlation between Ankylosing Spondylitis and Klebsiella overgrowth. I have to admit, although there are many of the naturopathic doctors out there that claim to treat these types of infections with herbal remedies, however, I am skeptical of these claims. Klebsiella is highly resistant to almost every oral antibiotic out there with the exception of a few, and it is having rapid resistance to several heavy IV antibiotics as well. I am skeptical that an herbal remedy would suffice. Especially in your case where you have the Spondylitis which tells me it is a deep-seated infection.

In your case, I would discourage the use of herbal remedies as I think you may kill off only the weaker bacteria leaving only the strongest bacteria to repopulate inside you. Pubmed studies on this topic are usually not reliable sources if they are a few years old as this strain rapidly multiplies. Here is the Statpearls Pubmed page for Klebsiella Pneumonia:

Ashurst JV, Dawson A. Klebsiella Pneumonia. [Updated 2021 Feb 5]. In: StatPearls [Internet]. Treasure Island (FL): StatPearls Publishing; 2021 Jan-. Available from: Klebsiella Pneumonia - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

I would take S. Boulardii during antibiotic treatment (to prevent C. Diff and to act as a protective barrier to prevent reoccurrence of the underlying Klebsiella infection). If you are bent on trying natural stuff for your deep-seated infection, here are some links:

Klebsiella pneumoniae – prevention and treatment | FX Medicine

Increasingly, some strains of Klebsiella pneumoniae have developed resistance to certain classes of antibiotics such as carbapenems, by acquiring a gene mutation that helps them to produce an enzyme that creates a resistance to the strongest of antibiotics.

www.fxmedicine.com.au

Upper Gut Dysbiosis: Is Ammonia the Cause?

When someone is suffering from dysbiosis, imbalances within the body can easily occur and make people ill. Ammonia is one such imbalance.

www.fixyourgut.com

I used a stool analysis test and was diagnosed by a rheumatologist. I believe i have had sibo and leaky gut for at least 20 years.

I have never tried herbal remedies besides MCT oil and berberine. I did try a round of cipro/flaygl with no luck. I have taken a few different probiotics like L Reuteri which didnt seem to do anything.

Diet is the only thing to keep symptoms under control but it is definitely not fixing the underlying issue.

 

[Vins7]

Please read this article: When SIBO & IBS-Constipation are just unrecognized thiamine deficiency

Hypothyroidism will also cause very slow transit time through the gut and will also make gut repair/regeneration slow or nonexistent. Bacteria thrives in this environment. Both hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency block metabolic energy production, causing multiple severe health issues. Many antibiotics cause thiamine function blockage which has the same symptoms as severe thiamine deficiency.

So, How much thiamine should I take if I'm dealing with digestive issues?

 

[TheBeard]

I used a stool analysis test and was diagnosed by a rheumatologist. I believe i have had sibo and leaky gut for at least 20 years.

I have never tried herbal remedies besides MCT oil and berberine. I did try a round of cipro/flaygl with no luck. I have taken a few different probiotics like L Reuteri which didnt seem to do anything.

Diet is the only thing to keep symptoms under control but it is definitely not fixing the underlying issue.

Carnivore + Xifaxan + augmentin + azithromycin for 3 months

 

[mostlylurking]

So, How much thiamine should I take if I'm dealing with digestive issues?

I have no idea. Research is helpful. Read the articles I linked in this thread. I started with about 300mg and worked my way up to 2 grams over a 3 month period. I based what I did on how I felt. You may not need as much as me. You could need more.

 

[Vins7]

I have no idea. Research is helpful. Read the articles I linked in this thread. I started with about 300mg and worked my way up to 2 grams over a 3 month period. I based what I did on how I felt. You may not need as much as me. You could need more.

And this fixed your digestive issues completely?

 

[mostlylurking]

Now you've got my interest, there's so few cases of anybody reporting to somehow managed SIBO that I will definitely check it all out, I've started already. Two questions straightaway if I may, until I wrap my head around it:
1. How long have you been suplementing and no symptoms?
2. Is serum level of B1 any reliable indicator of deficiency? Is it worth to check it?
Yes, I know it's strange, I had barely noticeable TSH level eating less to no carb and now it's over 8, so too much. Doctor was shocked, she never saw anything like this in her life, haha. Anyway, it's hard for me to differentiate where this energy is coming from, only explanation for now that I came up with is that I actually was constantly in high adrenaline state before (I had prolonged period with very high stress in my life), which perhaps masked my underlying thyroid issue (if it's physiologically possible at all) and only now, after some changes, it's seen in the labs.
I don't trust digital thermometers either, that's why I haven't started monitoring it yet. I'm from Poland and here's mercury thermometers are banned, so I have to do some gimnastics to get one.

They've banned mercury thermometers in the U.S. too; they are too dangerous but mercury light bulbs and mercury amalgam dental fillings are A-OK. Insane. So now we can't even effectively monitor our own temperature. I have found them available on Ebay.

I've been taking high doses of thiamine hcl (2 grams) since February 1. I spent November-January working up to this dose. I noticed marked improvement in my intestinal function on February 3. It was obvious to me that I did indeed need the high dose of thiamine. It's still working. Unless I do something stupid like eat a bunch of bread (I'm strongly gluten sensitive). I was having such a good time eating sandwiches for the first time in 25 years that I got a little carried away. I try to eat cooked mushrooms or raw carrot salad daily. I avoid nuts, all seeds, all grains, all things PUFA.

You need to address that high TSH. Maybe the lab results were faulty?

About testing for thiamine deficiency:


recommends this test: Erythrocyte Transketolase (ETAC): The Test of Choice for Assessing Thiamine Deficiency inside the cell

also see here: Thiamine Deficiency Testing: Understanding the Labs- Hormones Matter

 

[mostlylurking]

And this fixed your digestive issues completely?

So long as I watch my diet. No nuts, no seeds, no grains. Carrot salad or cooked mushrooms daily. Lots of dairy, low muscle meat. Orange juice, lots of orange juice. Avoid starchy fibrous vegetables.

 

[Birdie]

You're welcome.

Because Dr. Costantini pointed out to NOT take the thiamine in juice or add lemon juice to it and to just dissolve it in water I got the impression that it would be a good idea to space my orange juice and other carbs a short distance away (minimum 15 minutes). I wait until 3:00pm to take my second dose because I have had a lot of symptoms at night. But now that I think about it, I think that those symptoms (inflammatory pain) have improved.

I found this article written by Dr. Costantini to be very helpful:

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/acm.2011.0840

snippets:
"Objectives: To demonstrate that fatigue and other disorders related to ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease are the manifestation of an intracellular mild thiamine deficiency and not due to malabsorbtion, augmented requirements, or nutritional factors, and that this dysfunction is curable with high doses of thiamine administered orally or parenterally."

"The dosage was defined empirically for this study as follows: first administration was 600 mg/day for each patient. Every two days, there was a consultation with the patient to assess the therapy. In those cases in which the regression of the fatigue was not satisfactory, an increment of 300 mg/day of thiamine was prescribed in addition to the 600 mg/day.

This last step—consultation with the medical doctor regarding the condition of the patient—has been the most important calibration tool for this research. Patients weighing 60 kg responded to the therapy at doses of 600 mg/day. Proportionally, patients weighing 60+ kg responded to the therapy accordingly to higher doses (up to 1,500 mg/day for patients weighting 90 kg). In general, this is the rationale for the following dosage calibration used in this study."

Female patients:

Patients weighing <60 kg→10 mg/kg/day of thiamine

60–65 kg→14 mg/kg/day of thiamine

65–70 kg→17 mg/kg/day of thiamine

70–75 kg→20 mg/kg/day of thiamine

75–80 kg→23 mg/kg/day of thiamine

For male patients, the doses need to be increased by one-third compared to females:

Patients weighing <60 kg→14 mg/kg/day of thiamine

60–65 kg→18 mg/kg/day of thiamine

65–70 kg→23 mg/kg/day of thiamine

70–75 kg→30 mg/kg/day of thiamine

75–80 kg→35 mg/kg/day of thiamine

For patients whose weight is higher than 80 kg, our team suggests switching to an intramuscular therapy with one 100 mg/ml vial every 7 to 10 days. This is due to patients' reluctance to ingest the large number of pills necessary for those weighing more than 80 kg."

I don't know if there is a Thiamine/Dr Constantini subject/Forum on the RP Forum. Btw, why are there "Forums" listed on the forum? I guess that means threads ? Never understood it.

 

[Birdie]

You're welcome.

Because Dr. Costantini pointed out to NOT take the thiamine in juice or add lemon juice to it and to just dissolve it in water I got the impression that it would be a good idea to space my orange juice and other carbs a short distance away (minimum 15 minutes). I wait until 3:00pm to take my second dose because I have had a lot of symptoms at night. But now that I think about it, I think that those symptoms (inflammatory pain) have improved.

I found this article written by Dr. Costantini to be very helpful:

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/acm.2011.0840

snippets:
"Objectives: To demonstrate that fatigue and other disorders related to ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease are the manifestation of an intracellular mild thiamine deficiency and not due to malabsorbtion, augmented requirements, or nutritional factors, and that this dysfunction is curable with high doses of thiamine administered orally or parenterally."

"The dosage was defined empirically for this study as follows: first administration was 600 mg/day for each patient. Every two days, there was a consultation with the patient to assess the therapy. In those cases in which the regression of the fatigue was not satisfactory, an increment of 300 mg/day of thiamine was prescribed in addition to the 600 mg/day.

This last step—consultation with the medical doctor regarding the condition of the patient—has been the most important calibration tool for this research. Patients weighing 60 kg responded to the therapy at doses of 600 mg/day. Proportionally, patients weighing 60+ kg responded to the therapy accordingly to higher doses (up to 1,500 mg/day for patients weighting 90 kg). In general, this is the rationale for the following dosage calibration used in this study."

Female patients:

Patients weighing <60 kg→10 mg/kg/day of thiamine

60–65 kg→14 mg/kg/day of thiamine

65–70 kg→17 mg/kg/day of thiamine

70–75 kg→20 mg/kg/day of thiamine

75–80 kg→23 mg/kg/day of thiamine

For male patients, the doses need to be increased by one-third compared to females:

Patients weighing <60 kg→14 mg/kg/day of thiamine

60–65 kg→18 mg/kg/day of thiamine

65–70 kg→23 mg/kg/day of thiamine

70–75 kg→30 mg/kg/day of thiamine

75–80 kg→35 mg/kg/day of thiamine

For patients whose weight is higher than 80 kg, our team suggests switching to an intramuscular therapy with one 100 mg/ml vial every 7 to 10 days. This is due to patients' reluctance to ingest the large number of pills necessary for those weighing more than 80 kg."

Hi again,
I'm glad to hear about your possible improvement with the night pain. Yes, I keep the thiamine away from fruit juice. So, I had stopped the thiamine for maybe a month. I'm not near my notes, but it was about that. A couple of days ago I began 500mg with breakfast. Oh, gee, I have oj with breakfast and now I remember that's why I was taking it earlier. He said to take it away from coffee too. This is hard since I have a latte first thing in morning.

Anyway, I'll have to figure that out. I'm less than 60kg, so 500mg dose is okay to start. However, we have been taking 50mg of Lipothiamine for a couple of years. Started this before finding Dr C and his protocol. Does anybody know if there is a Thiamine thread? I have some questions. Thanks

 

[Birdie]

There are other ailments other than SIBO that cause SIBO-like symptoms (i.e. SIFO) which is why I ask. And S. Boulardii is more of an add-on to an antibiotic than a treatment in and of itself. I doubt it would do anything for SIBO on its own. And the GI MAP is probably one of the best stool tests out there as it uses dna analysis and is proposed to be one of the most accurate, although I cannot find much on Pubmed validating this claim. If I were you, I would want to get an idea of what I was dealing with exactly, like I said, each strain is treated differently.

I think I will talk about the GI MAP to my husband then. Thanks

 

[mostlylurking]

Hi again,
I'm glad to hear about your possible improvement with the night pain. Yes, I keep the thiamine away from fruit juice. So, I had stopped the thiamine for maybe a month. I'm not near my notes, but it was about that. A couple of days ago I began 500mg with breakfast. Oh, gee, I have oj with breakfast and now I remember that's why I was taking it earlier. He said to take it away from coffee too. This is hard since I have a latte first thing in morning.

Anyway, I'll have to figure that out. I'm less than 60kg, so 500mg dose is okay to start. However, we have been taking 50mg of Lipothiamine for a couple of years. Started this before finding Dr C and his protocol. Does anybody know if there is a Thiamine thread? I have some questions. Thanks

If you search for Thiamine there are many results. Haidut has posted quite a bit about thiamine: Search results

Morning for me now: First have OJ with my thyroid med along with a cup of mint tea (no caffeine, no tannins), wait 15-30 minutes, have the thiamine hcl in water, wait another 30 minutes (minimum) have my milk with gelatin and maple syrup. If I have the milk closer to the thyroid med the calcium blocks it.

 

[Brooks Esq.]

I used a stool analysis test and was diagnosed by a rheumatologist. I believe i have had sibo and leaky gut for at least 20 years.

I have never tried herbal remedies besides MCT oil and berberine. I did try a round of cipro/flaygl with no luck. I have taken a few different probiotics like L Reuteri which didnt seem to do anything.

Diet is the only thing to keep symptoms under control but it is definitely not fixing the underlying issue.

Thank you for that information. I would not think that cipro/flaygl would be of any benefit to you if you have a Klebsiella infection. That strain must be treated with specialized antibiotics which are usually IV administered. Those antibiotics are big guns so your doctor should be sure to test the bacteria for antibiotic resistance genes before choosing the right one for you.

Brooks

 

[Brooks Esq.]

Carnivore + Xifaxan + augmentin + azithromycin for 3 months

I respectfully disagree with your suggested combination. Klebsiella can be resistant to all of these antibiotics and the infection could possibly be made worse by this combo. Not to mention combining three (3) different antibiotics can increase the risk of C. Diff infection, which is nasty as hell and can be a permanent ailment for some people (40% get C.Diff again).

 

[Brooks Esq.]

I think I will talk about the GI MAP to my husband then. Thanks

I hope it works for you and possibly gives you some answers. I am skeptical about the world of alternative medicine, but I saw that they had several FDA approved patents so I went with them for my own testing, although I have not yet received my results as I just sent them off.

Brooks

 

[TheBeard]

I respectfully disagree with your suggested combination. Klebsiella can be resistant to all of these antibiotics and the infection could possibly be made worse by this combo. Not to mention combining three (3) different antibiotics can increase the risk of C. Diff infection, which is nasty as hell and can be a permanent ailment for some people (40% get C.Diff again).

My life went downhill because of K.pneumonae.

It went back uphill thanks to this combo.

 

[Vins7]

My life went downhill because of K.pneumonae.

It went back uphill thanks to this combo.

How did you get your k.pneumonae diagnosis?

 

[TheBeard]

How did you get your k.pneumonae diagnosis?

Comprehensive stool panel

 

[Vins7]

Comprehensive stool panel

Interesting. What were your symptoms?

 

[Mauritio]

Carnivore + Xifaxan + augmentin + azithromycin for 3 months

You took azithromycin for 3 months ?

 

[TheBeard]

Interesting. What were your symptoms?

Extreme fatigue, brain fog, nausea, complete lack of appetite, dramatic weight loss.