InChristAlone
Member
Not to mention coffee is cholinergic.
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"Caffeine has anticholinergic effects by its antagonism of adenosine receptors, and thus potential effect on the lacrimal gland formation. The reduction of glandular secretion induced by caffeine is one of its many anticholinergic effect . Among agents that frequently reduce tear secretion are the anticholinergics, antihistamines and antianxietydrugs."Not to mention coffee is cholinergic.
"Caffeine has anticholinergic effects by its antagonism of adenosine receptors, and thus potential effect on the lacrimal gland formation. The reduction of glandular secretion induced by caffeine is one of its many anticholinergic effect . Among agents that frequently reduce tear secretion are the anticholinergics, antihistamines and antianxietydrugs."
This was shown by AMAECHI, O. U. AND SAVIA, J. in THE EFFECT OF CAFFEINE ON TEAR FORMATION.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c170/e2fc51ce815b61b1e45d0f11efc9a6ef1dc7.pdf
Interesting, thank you. So many who take the SSRIs drink coffee because of the sedation, and, given the fibrotic effects of these drugs, it's extremely disconcerting to see the public campaigns against caffeine in citation of mental health.And here is a thread that shows caffeine specifically to be anticholinergic.
Caffeine Is A Serotonin Receptor Antagonist
Unfortunately many cannot use coffee due to panic attacks. Panic disorder is not a small mental health disorder and can completely destroy someone's life. I no longer have any mental health disorder other than some obsessiveness thanks to avoiding caffeine.Interesting, thank you. So many who take the SSRIs drink coffee because of the sedation, and, given the fibrotic effects of these drugs, it's extremely disconcerting to see the public campaigns against caffeine in citation of mental health.
It's debilitating, definitely, but the point of my post rested on the use of SSRIs, which have fibrotic effects, to treat it. Dozens of different drugs and hormones have been used clinically to treat panic disorder.Unfortunately many cannot use coffee due to panic attacks. Panic disorder is not a small mental health disorder and can completely destroy someone's life. I no longer have any mental health disorder other than some obsessiveness thanks to avoiding caffeine.
IBS was worse for sure. Inability to do anything until I got the caffeine hit, which is a sign of dependency. I also had hypomania at times. I admit my metabolism was higher, but with it came the extreme sensitivity to adrenaline and the blood sugar rollercoaster. The constant need to medicate all the side effects. I don't have to medicate anything anymore. That's true freedom.It's debilitating, definitely, but the point of my post rested on the use of SSRIs, which have fibrotic effects, to treat it. Dozens of different drugs and hormones have been used clinically to treat panic disorder.
What did you find worsened from caffeine besides anxiety?
Thank you. How do you react to progesterone?IBS was worse for sure. Inability to do anything until I got the caffeine hit, which is a sign of dependency. I also had hypomania at times. I admit my metabolism was higher, but with it came the extreme sensitivity to adrenaline and the blood sugar rollercoaster. The constant need to medicate all the side effects. I don't have to medicate anything anymore. That's true freedom.
I am not sure anymore. I stopped taking it. I might start back up again depending on my reaction. I have been continually trying to get to a place of balance. I want my body to re learn how to balance itself. I had felt like taking progesterone was pushing my body to do what I wanted instead of allowing it to do what it needed to. I am not against therapies when things are very bad, but in general I am learning to trust my body more. I think I lost that when I got into all this.Thank you. How do you react to progesterone?
I can relate to that. Dr. Peat's very conservative, anyway, which has been lost on this forum, I think. He often recommends dietary changes and then thyroid. He'll suggest progesterone, vitamin E and, for short-term use, niacinamide in some cases. He only recommends other things for acute use like during an infection and so on.I am not sure anymore. I stopped taking it. I might start back up again depending on my reaction. I have been continually trying to get to a place of balance. I want my body to re learn how to balance itself. I had felt like taking progesterone was pushing my body to do what I wanted instead of allowing it to do what it needed to. I am not against therapies when things are very bad, but in general I am learning to trust my body more. I think I lost that when I got into all this.
I no longer have any mental health disorder other than some obsessiveness thanks to avoiding caffeine.
Haidut,Ray has written about the dangers of choline and its close relationship with estrogen. The histamine and acetylcholine receptors are perhaps the two main systems through which estrogen negatively affects the systemic health of the organism. As such, antihistamine and antocholinergic drugs can help block the effects of estrogen. Peat has even written separate articles on both systems and their role in disease, as well as the failure of choline and cholinergic drugs in treating brain conditions like Alzheimer and other dementias.
Now, we can add increased risk of blood clots to the list of negative effects of (excess) dietary choline. It seems that the mechanism is the same as the one for dietary carnitine raising CVD risk - i.e. increased synthesis of the substance TAMO.
Trimethylamine N-oxide - Wikipedia
It should be noted that choline and carnitine by themselves do not raise TMAO. It is gut bacteria that makes that metabolic conversion, so the role of gut bacteria in vascular health is once again very prominent and finally starting to be recognized by mainstream medicine. Be that as it may, the study found that (possibly excessive) dietary choline in the form of a supplement raised TMAO levels, and platelet aggregation in humans and a low dose aspirin reversed not only the platelet aggregation but also the increase in TMAO levels. The reduction of platelet aggregation by aspirin is not novel, it is a soidly established benefit. But the reduction in TMAO levels is a new and previously unknown benefit of aspirin, and as such it may explain at least one of the mechanism by which aspirin prevents CVD. So, for diets heavy in eggs and meat proteins, taking aspirin 2-3 times a week may be a good idea. Keeping the gut as clean of bacteria as possible should also help, and aspirin may actually be lowering TMAO levels through its antibacterial effects I posted about in the past.
Gut Microbe-Generated Trimethylamine N-Oxide From Dietary Choline Is Prothrombotic in Subjects | Circulation
Diet and gut bacteria linked with blood clots
"...Consuming too much choline, a nutrient sold in over-the-counter dietary supplements, can boost the risk for blood clots, researchers warn. That’s because bacteria in the intestines interact with choline to produce a compound that encourages platelets to clump together and form clots. Choline is found in a variety of foods including meat, eggs and milk. It’s what’s known as an essential nutrient, which means the body can’t make enough choline on its own and so it must be provided in food. But “unless prescribed by your doctor, avoid supplements with choline,” said senior study researcher Dr. Stanley L. Hazen of the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio, in a statement. Hazen and colleagues had previously shown that bacteria in the intestines interact with choline and other dietary nutrients to produce a substance called TMAO, and they linked high levels of TMAO in the blood to an increased risk of cardiovascular diseases. Also, in studies in animals, they linked higher levels of TMAO to a higher risk for blood clots. Their latest research, reported in the American Heart Association’s journal Circulation, shows that choline in food can affect blood clotting risk in humans, and in some cases, that risk can be minimized by taking low-dose aspirin."
"...Aspirin, which reduces the stickiness of platelets, reduced both the increases in TMAO and the increases in platelet clotting associated with choline, but it didn't completely eliminate them, the researchers found. The findings are of particular concern in people at high cardiovascular risk, whose increased risk of blood clots may not be overcome by low-dose aspirin. The researchers recommend further study. They also say it's worth exploring whether low-dose aspirin is beneficial in otherwise healthy people with high TMAO in the blood – although at this point, they can’t explain why the aspirin seemed to bring down TMAO levels. Dr. Herbert Tilg from Medical University Innsbruck, Austria, who has studied the link between gut microbes and blood clots, told Reuters Health by email, “This and earlier studies show that we now definitely have to consider dietary aspects in this context, i.e., diet drives thrombosis risk.” “These associations are totally new and unexpected: a link between diet - gut microbiota - and thromboembolic events,” he said. “They are extremely relevant for the public and in medicine,” given that clots are “very, very common” and can be fatal, he said."
I asked Peatbot this question.Haidut,
Where has Ray written about the dangers of choline and its close relationship with estrogen?
Thanks.