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j.
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'Suikerbuik said:
Right, you misunderstood me.
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Right, you misunderstood me.
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j.
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Suikerbuik said:
I didn't say correlation is causation, this study is one piece of data.
OP
j.
Guest
Suikerbuik said:
Then the problem would never be solved. At some point vitamin D should increase, otherwise the problem isn't solved.
Suikerbuik
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Sorry my mistake then. If the more the better is about the antiestrogenic effect then see how calcitriol (1,25D(OH)2) works by inhibiting aromatase:
Promoter II: a Vitamin D response element. A DNA sequence that has affinity for the 'activated' VDR protein (activated by 1,25D(OH)2).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20156557
It's not conclusive data thus we may not conclude anything. Certainly not make the conclusion that 40 ng/ml is a minimum value, because lower values will make you prone to albumin loss in the urine, that's just nonsense.
Never say never, but this a factor what makes health so immensely complicated and why people usually never get cured and always got to be careful think about what they do or don't do. I don't speak about variable symptoms, just the long-term overall health of someone and the consequences for daily life.
Luckily Peat's info is out there, and with Peat's info we certainly can take things in ouw own hands. Doctors are FAR FAR FAR more away from the problem with their seemingly problem solving medicines... Peating is great when you're healthy, great when you're not healthy, but don't be afraid when his approach doesn't completely solve the problem (or cure you) as is it far more complicated. In these cases the immune system becomes an important and not to be neglected part of healing.
Only message I have is that some approaches (vit. D is one) may negatively affect the immune system, though in first instance (short-term) you will feel better because of that effect. That makes you believe you're doing everything right, while you actually aren't. Time will tell what's truth, but don't take anything someone tells you. No one has all answers and no one is completely right in everything he or she says, not I, neither Peat, nor someone else.
Edit: typos as always, the ones you find next are yours :)
OP
j.
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Suikerbuik said:
unless you combine it with other data. I didn't claim it by itself was conclusive.
Suikerbuik said:
Here is the link to the full study:
http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10 ... 007.04.015
@Suikerbuik,
I thought that posting the link to the full study you were refering about the relation between cytokines and vitamin D status would be usefull too.
As a crohn's sufferer, I found it very informative:
http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10 ... 012.05.015
I thought that posting the link to the full study you were refering about the relation between cytokines and vitamin D status would be usefull too.
As a crohn's sufferer, I found it very informative:
http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10 ... 012.05.015
@Suikerbuik,
So, you think that for someone with serious health problems when it comes to body's own homeostatis regulating system, the less we interfer with it the better?
My own ( and unfortunately long
) observation and experience with the crohn's seems to confirm that.
So, you think that for someone with serious health problems when it comes to body's own homeostatis regulating system, the less we interfer with it the better?
My own ( and unfortunately long
) observation and experience with the crohn's seems to confirm that.
Suikerbuik
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Thank you Wilfrid. The albumin study just confirms what I have been saying. I am studying this subject for some years now, maybe because of what I know, I go to fast through some very important pieces of information, you actually need to think this way. The raw data completely fits what I say. The information between the lines may bring some confusion and this information is the base of their conclusion:
There's more that the authors assume is right (at least in theory it can be) but is actually wrong in practise.
That's true (works through VDREs too, like the antiestrogenic effects of Vit. D). Anyway cell-culture and animal studies are not sick humans!
Acknowledges the importance of vitamin D 1,25(OH)2D. Next time I'd suggest a study to see if vit.D (25OH) really improves VDR activation, recent studies say it doesn't (I know those were not T2D studies) anyway than the fact that 25D is a VDR antagonist should make one thinking.. We will also need long term studies (YEARS), not short term. Or just play it easy and use 1,25(OH)2 as a prescription drug for these patients. Then we're talking.
Check out the references number 12 and 13, they used 1,25(OH)2D in these studies NOT 25D! .....
A detrimental mistake they made here, see the T1D study above.
There's more that the authors assume is right (at least in theory it can be) but is actually wrong in practise.
Suikerbuik
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Wilfrid said:@Suikerbuik,
So, you think that for someone with serious health problems when it comes to body's own homeostatis regulating system, the less we interfer with it the better?
My own ( and unfortunately long
Unfortunately my experience is like yours, and research acknowledges this indeed. Biology is not a machine, every stimulus needs to be dealt with, and actually the body knows what it does. Everything is logic in the end, this is what research confirms more and more. We humans just don't know why the body does that - we don't see the logic yet. So we focus on symptoms and markers that are actually results and not a cause, but because we know those markers are symptoms are associated with damage and disease and we know how to manipulate those markers and symtpoms, we manipulate them. This manipulation is incredibly difficult for the body to adapt to.
We should look long-term and not short-term to understand things. Short-term research and the results often don't reveal the effects on an organism in the long run. Then there's the interpretation of data that is really difficult. An holistic approach or 'hypothesis' like one that Peat has is needed to understand biology behind a whole organism. Like a peat diet and lifestyle (stress reduction), with as little as possible supplements. I know peat would acknowledge this :)
One example of the beauty of nature:
We know PUFA is detrimental to a human body, but the body is made so ingenious that PUFAs increase fat metabolism through activation of PPARs. PUFA are the fats that the body burns first compared to saturated fats it also lowers the glucose metabolism (glucose sparing, in a way we don't want). As if the body wants to get rid of that crap (PUFAs) as soon as possible. This is one example that nature knows what it does while we don't.. and there are way more.
Edit: A bit more clarity for those are not familair with the terms (though it is still too simple). PPARs are proteins that have the ability to sense molecules. Fat molecules with high affinity for especially unsaturated fats. When these PPARs sense PUFA they upregulate the production of certain proteins involved in fatty acid oxidation and lower glucose oxidation.
OP
j.
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Suikerbuik said:
Peat claims saturated fats are burned preferentially, and that that explains why the percentage of PUFA stored is higher than PUFA consumed.
OP
j.
Guest
Kasper said:
My vague recollection.
j. said:
RP mentioned that fat cells preferentially burns saturated fat for it's energy supply.
this is a very slow process. That is why our fat storage becomes more unsaturated
over a long period of time. I think someone posted a study here showing how thigh and buttock
fats had more PUFA than abdominal fat. I think FPS site has that study.
RP also mentioned that body preferentially burns vegetable oils when ingested.
It becomes a problem when vegetable oil gets stored.
He also mentioned that medium chain fatty acids in coconut oil
is oxidized more than other fats. There are studies that measured
preferential metabolism of different fatty acids. Long chain saturated
fat has the lowest rate compared to short chain saturated fat.
Lauric acid has higher rate than vegetable oil.
Then linoleic acid has higher rate than palmitic acid etc.
He also mentioned that at rest our cells prefer saturated fat.
I think the order of preference is different when we ingest fat and
when we are burning fat at rest . There other factors involved.
He also discussed how estrogen interacts with PUFA.
Suikerbuik
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Thank you Mitter. I didn't make a difference between chain length, different tissues and other factors. Saturated fats are indeed optimal for some tissues. Anyway vegetable oils do increase beta oxidation compared to saturated fatty acids. I excluded MCT because of the different mechanisms these fats enter the body. MCTs can directly be transported to the liver (portal vein) whereas fatty acids with more carbons don't (via chylomicrons). besides that MCTs are smaller molecules that don't require the carnitine shuttle. Not sure if MCTs like (P/M)UFA do increase overal beta-oxidation rate though.
Anyway see these studies if you want to know more.
Check out these studies.
The study (leyton et al. 1987) they refer to:
http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...85a.pdf&code=b69dd96044a4957bd36eebf438633b36
Study done in humans.
Anyway see these studies if you want to know more.
Check out these studies.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/12/3034.full
The study (leyton et al. 1987) they refer to:
http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...85a.pdf&code=b69dd96044a4957bd36eebf438633b36
Study done in humans.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/72/4/905.long
Parsifal
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That's interesting, I recall from somewhere that Peat advised vitamin D supplementation during winter no?Suikerbuik said:
And there is vitamin D in haidut's oestroban as well?
So why should someone with vitamin D defficiency avoid vitamin D supplementation?
Suikerbuik
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If the vit.d. metabolism is functioning like it should.. but unfortunately that's not always the case.
It's all about body chemistry and vit. D test on its own isn't telling you much.
If I recall right there is only 400iu in estroban, that's an appropriate dose for most.
It's all about body chemistry and vit. D test on its own isn't telling you much.
If I recall right there is only 400iu in estroban, that's an appropriate dose for most.
Parsifal
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No, there is 1000IU. How do you know if the vit.D metabolism is not functioning like it should?Suikerbuik said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Suikerbuik
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By measuring some of the metabolites involved such as: calcium, PTH, 1,25D, 25D and possibly other inflammatory markers as 25D is known to be affected by inflammatory processes, and 1,25D may also be subject to variability in that respect.
Big fan of the morphostatic hypothesis. As far as I'm concerned the evidence backs it up to the point that one can conclude that there is no actual 'immune' system. Germ Theory science confuses immunity for commensality between germ and host.
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