Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia

tara · Jun 11, 2014

SAFarmer said:
What is interesting is that those men's initial weight recovery was mostly flab by their own admission, possibly mostly fat and watery tissue, and they said that getting their muscle back was very hard work ! If I remember correctly their avg starting weight, before the exp, was around 70kg, on a 3200 cal diet ! That is lean in my book on a high cal diet.

I bought and read the book, The Great Starvation Experiment: The Heroic Men Who Starved so That Millions Could Live, by Todd Tucker a while back and it gave me good insight into Keys and the experiment data.

3200 is not a high calorie diet. Average weight-stable men over 25 eat about 3000. Under 25 they need more. The sample ranged from early 20s to early 30s. They may have been doing more physical work at that time than the average sample now would be doing, too.
I imagine the book would be interesting.

SAFarmer · Jun 11, 2014

tara said:
3200 is not a high calorie diet. Average weight-stable men over 25 eat about 3000. Under 25 they need more. The sample ranged from early 20s to early 30s. They may have been doing more physical work at that time than the average sample now would be doing, too.
I imagine the book would be interesting.

Tara I agree 3200 is probably not a high calorie diet in the context of what a healthy male with excellent metabolism and body composition should be eating according to Peat and others, but in the context of modern day living and quidelines of around 2000-2500 calories, it is high. I have seen many recommendations of 2000 calories for a 70 kg man. That does not mean it is right of course, but it sets the context for measuring against.

Blossom · Jun 11, 2014

SAFarmer said:
tara said:

3200 is not a high calorie diet. Average weight-stable men over 25 eat about 3000. Under 25 they need more. The sample ranged from early 20s to early 30s. They may have been doing more physical work at that time than the average sample now would be doing, too.
I imagine the book would be interesting.

Click to expand...

Tara I agree 3200 is probably not a high calorie diet in the context of what a healthy male with excellent metabolism and body composition should be eating according to Peat and others, but in the context of modern day living and quidelines of around 2000-2500 calories, it is high. I have seen many recommendations of 2000 calories for a 70 kg man. That does not mean it is right of course, but it sets the context for measuring against.

The miniscule calorie recommendations baffle me. No wonder so many people feel ill, weak and are generally suffering. When you really start to delve deep into this topic it makes one wonder if there isn't some sort of agenda. It seems perpetuating the myth of low BMI, low calorie intake etc. is the perfect way to keep the masses sick and easy to control. :shock:

I remember feeling this way when I discovered Peat's work and realized how we have been mislead about things like sugar, CO2, and serotonin. This is really no different imo.

Blossom · Jun 11, 2014

From youreatopia (I believe this applies to men too)Naomi Woolf said

A culture fixated on female thinness is not an obsession about female beauty, but an obsession about female obedience. Dieting is the most potent political sedative in women's history; a quietly mad population is a tractable one.

tara · Jun 11, 2014

SAFarmer said:
Tara I agree 3200 is probably not a high calorie diet in the context of what a healthy male with excellent metabolism and body composition should be eating according to Peat and others, but in the context of modern day living and quidelines of around 2000-2500 calories, it is high. I have seen many recommendations of 2000 calories for a 70 kg man. That does not mean it is right of course, but it sets the context for measuring against.

Yes it is high compared with common public recommendations. I mean it's not a high calorie diet compared with what average non-dieting weight-stable men of average health actually eat, not just those with exceptionally strong metabolisms. The low cal diet recommendations seem to be partly based on poor research, eg believing what people say they eat instead of measuring what they actually eat, and prejudices that favour leanness. But most people don't actually follow them most of the time, sometimes because they fortunately don't have the 'won't' power to starve themselves, and their bodies win.

Blossom, that's a great quote from Wolf. Yes, a weak sick population would be easier to control and profit from in some ways, now that so much hard physical work is done by machines, and the medical-industrial-complex profits most from real or invented chronic disease in long-lived people. What if all of us women quit going along with all these disempowering forces and really cooperated?? Wonder what we could do?

tara · Jun 13, 2014

sueq said:
When I stopped dieting and just ate what I wanted I put on all the weight, and during this time, it must have been mostly saturated as I was by then not having fish oil or lots of fat or meat anymore. Plenty of carbs, sugar and starch.
But that's also when my health went downhill, hair greyed (actually whitened, patchily), the aches, the edema, the fatigue, the strength and muscle loss, the worsening insomnia, the whole lot.
So going by my own experience I think that weight gain even when it's saturated fat you're storing, is what made me feel, walk, sleep, act, even in some ways look, 99.
Sadly.

Hi Sueq, I'm sorry this seemed to result in worse health for you. Some of the symptoms you describe - a period of aches, edema, fatigue - sound like what Gwyneth describes as an inevitable part of recovery from severe energy deficit, as the body repairs damaged tissue. But I'm puzzled by the muscle and strength loss. In hindsight, do you think you can see any significant deficiencies or imbalances during your initial refeeding? Would it have included a Peaty amount of protein? Minerals? Based on how you see things now, any things you would do differently if you could do it again?

CellularIconoclast · Jun 13, 2014

Blossom said:
From youreatopia (I believe this applies to men too)Naomi Woolf said

A culture fixated on female thinness is not an obsession about female beauty, but an obsession about female obedience. Dieting is the most potent political sedative in women's history; a quietly mad population is a tractable one.

Click to expand...

That whole thing is really weird, and I don't know what's driving it. I've also suspected that the obsession with thinness must have nothing to do with beauty, however I doubt it's an intentional conspiracy to damage women's health. I think very few people realize that extreme leanness is especially unhealthy for women. In common parlance, "skinny" and "healthy" seem almost synonyms and I often hear people talk about how they got "healthier" when what they really mean is that they weigh less.

Of my male friends, I would say on average the women they find most beautiful are around 30 to 35% bodyfat (especially with a high progesterone/low cortisol physique), with a single one who seems to prefer women under 20% bodyfat. Yet I have many female friends that are under 20% bodyfat and are still extremely stressed that they are "overweight" even to the point of not sleeping well, being embarrassed to go out in public, or afraid to eat food.

One thing I was thinking is that leanness is a measure of social status, due to it's current rarity. In cultures with little access to food the opposite has been true, where obesity was a desirable trait and an indicator of high social status.

Blossom · Jun 13, 2014

I completely agree that depending on the culture or time period in history what has been considered attractive and healthy has varied. I noticed in Peat's art work on his web site that he includes a pretty wide range of the female physical form. I would assume he probably wouldn't paint a subject he didn't find beautiful. Many of the women he painted would be considered out of shape and a bit on the plump side by our current standards. In reality they probably represent a range of realistically healthy female forms. I'm just speculating on this of course as I have no idea what Peat's paintings represent to him. I like to believe he is illustrating(painting) a more realistic image for women to help counter the extreme thinness that is promoted in popular culture.

Such_Saturation · Jun 13, 2014

I think our perception of the being now is really dependent on a very defined shape, so perhaps it is excessively weak and we need a visual almost scientific grasp on someone's frame to form feelings on a person. However when I see someone who is obese I feel the tissue is genuinely stopping the organism from expressing itself. A body composition compatible with expression and interaction (a good way to define health) probably lies in the middle.

Blossom · Jun 13, 2014

I don't honestly think there is a conspiracy or anything like that it's just another sad example of how backward we are on so many health issues. I would just like to see all people be able to have the experience of feeling good in their own skin. Sick people come in all shapes and sizes just like healthy ones. It's a perfect bell curve. What is very common though is the wasting you see everyone go through toward the end of life. People never plump up and eat heartily in there final months unless it is an unexpected and untimely death. I suppose when you've experienced it first hand, the loss of appetite and wasting you begin to value a more robust appetite because it represents life. Ultimately I suppose it is up to each and everyone of us to be true to ourselves when it comes to issues of health, weight and beauty. I don't think anyone can go wrong if they are having unresolved health issues to take an honest look at if they are truly giving the body enough fuel to heal. I think that is often overlooked.

CellularIconoclast · Jun 13, 2014

Blossom said:
What is very common though is the wasting you see everyone go through toward the end of life.

I was writing a reply but decided to start a new thread instead: http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4092

tara · Jun 14, 2014

I'm starting to suspect not so much a conspiracy to deliberately undermine our health, but more that weight-loss industries motivated by profit to persuade us to starve ourselves are careless of collateral damage, and are often blind to the consequences, sometimes willfully. Weight-loss programmes, gyms, pharmaceuticals, medical etsc influencing public policy. As well as the wide-spread self-perpetuating public attitudes.

Does higher weight predict longer life once we are over 60ish? Younger?

tara · Jun 14, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
However when I see someone who is obese I feel the tissue is genuinely stopping the organism from expressing itself. A body composition compatible with expression and interaction (a good way to define health) probably lies in the middle.

It seems likely that for some people, the body composition most compatible with expression and interaction is a large size. There are some fat people with physical limitations, but that applies to thin and average people too. For people who are unwell, it is great to figure out how to get healthier, but in most cases just eating less and/or exercising more probably isn't going to do that. It is often hard for people with more fat to feel comfortable engaging in social physical activity, because they have to deal with thinner people's disrespect.

The middle is in the arbitrary 'overweight' category, which says more about the odd categorisation than about our health. I'm not sure that everyone would be at their best in the middle. I think it's fine that we are different girths and heights and colours and languages etc. Diversity is OK.

Such_Saturation · Jun 14, 2014

I don't think it's possible to put on a hundred pounds of fat by avoiding PUFA and beans, grains. There is no caloric restriction involved in that. Since we all have one big genome an environment which requires you to be that weight to interact is just an evolutionary stress, since it is shifting you farther from the basic shape (that of the newborn). Have you ever seen a Maasai tribesman who is "different"? A chimpanzee or a dolphin?

It's the same thing when doctors claim that some people will simply grow a cancer from the same diet as another person's.

Blossom · Jun 14, 2014

I thought the data proved that a BMI under 22 had the highest mortality rate regardless of age? I rejoiced when mine hit 23!

tara · Jun 14, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
I don't think it's possible to put on a hundred pounds of fat by avoiding PUFA and beans, grains. There is no caloric restriction involved in that.

Well, if it's not possible, I guess it won't happen. I've heard of a few people gaining weight while avoiding PUFA and beans, grains. Even if there are some problems with grains and beans, many people have lived reasonably well while eating them as part of their diet.

Such_Saturation said:
Since we all have one big genome an environment which requires you to be that weight to interact is just an evolutionary stress, since it is shifting you farther from the basic shape (that of the newborn).

I don't understand what you mean here. We have evolved to function in our environment? Yes. We change shape when we grow up? Yes. As a population we are heavier than we used to be a few decades ago, and we live longer. Evolutionary pressure is doing what?

Such_Saturation said:
Have you ever seen a Maasai tribesman who is "different"? A chimpanzee or a dolphin?

I haven't seen all that many chimpanzees or dolphins. I imagine that their sizes would vary on a bell curve too, that there would be some diferences in colouring, that they could tell each other apart because they were diferent, and that physically separate groups might develop some cultural differences. I may never have met a single Maasai.

It's the same thing when doctors claim that some people will simply grow a cancer from the same diet as another person's.

Isn't it true that a group of people can eat a similar diet, and some of them can develop dangerous cancers while others don't? Not sure of your point.

Such_Saturation · Jun 14, 2014

They gained weight, but did they get to four hundred pounds? If they did it's because of the PREVIOUS habits. Evolution caused us to invent puberty and opposable thumbs; if you become obese and diabetic that's evolution dealing with a toxic environment around you. Eventually you will become immune to diabetes and PUFA and you will be the only one who can interact. That's what evolution is doing

<<Isn't it true that a group of people can eat a similar diet, and some of them can develop dangerous cancers while others don't? Not sure of your point.>>

That is only a matter of time, everyone would develop cancer be it in three years or a hundred years after their death by other causes. This time variance is simply dictated by the habits PREDATING that diet, be them of that same organism or be them of its ancestors.

tara · Jun 14, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
They gained weight, but did they get to four hundred pounds? If they did it's because of the PREVIOUS habits. Evolution caused us to invent puberty and opposable thumbs; if you become obese and diabetic that's evolution dealing with a toxic environment around you. Eventually you will become immune to diabetes and PUFA and you will be the only one who can interact. That's what evolution is doing.

The diabetics I know best are skinny and have never been fat. They reproduced before diabetes.

Such_Saturation · Jun 14, 2014

I'm not saying puberty and thumbs are adaptations to diabetes. And I bet a doctor might call me diabetic for a range of stupid reasons, like having my blood drawn after Thanksgiving or something. Also, <<Responses were received from 127,420 of 200,000 households (64%, representing 211,097 adults) for SHIELD, and 4257 participants for NHANES. [...] Increased BMI was associated with increased prevalence of diabetes mellitus, hypertension and dyslipidaemia in both studies (p < 0.001).>>

tara · Jun 14, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
I'm not saying puberty and thumbs are adaptations to diabetes. And I bet a doctor might call me diabetic for a range of stupid reasons, like having my blood drawn after Thanksgiving or something. Also, <<Responses were received from 127,420 of 200,000 households (64%, representing 211,097 adults) for SHIELD, and 4257 participants for NHANES. [...] Increased BMI was associated with increased prevalence of diabetes mellitus, hypertension and dyslipidaemia in both studies (p < 0.001).>>

Correlation is not equal to causation. I'm not aware that causation has been established. High cholesterol has not been shown to cause cardiovascular disease, but is sometimes associated with it. Sometimes excess fat may be a result of metabolic ill health that has other causes. Some people die of old age with very high cholesterol, and some fat people are metabolically a good bit healthier than some of us thinner ones. There is some justified skepticism about prescribing statins; I think similar skepticism is justified about prescibing weight-loss diets.

Obesity paradox
For those of you unfamiliar with the term “obesity paradox” refers to experimental data that suggest those with various chronic health conditions, such as heart disease or diabetes, are less likely to die or suffer more serious complications when they are obese and have these conditions than when they are average-weighted and have these conditions [JP Curtis et al., 2005; W Galal et al., 2009; A Oreopolous et al., 2008]. There is a lot of money being sunk into an effort to disprove this so-called obesity paradox.

http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2014/1/ ... facts.html

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