THE BEST Of TIMES, THE WORST Of TIMES

narouz said:

Maybe some of the Nystatin is making its way down to the lower reaches of your bowels,
into the ascending colon, cecum, etc.

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thebigpeatowski said:

Must be...I have NO other explanation for my bizarre experience.

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In Peat's view of the gut and endotoxin,
he seems to think, generally,
that bacterial activity is okay
if confined to the lower gut.
I think I'm correct in saying that
but I could be wrong.

But...this is exactly the area (cecum, ascending & transverse colon)
where you--and maybe me--think we may have problems.
We're speculating yeast.
And of course "that Jorge guy" believes that is the area
where yeast builds a fortress with biofilms that makes it resistant
if not impenetrable
to oral fungicides.
Also (Jorge) that the oral fungicides get so diluted/weakened by encountering
all the other detritus of a poorly functioning gut
on the way down to the cecum area.

So goes the Jorge theory.

So...the Peatian view and the Jorgean view are at odds.

Also, with Peat, he has said in interviews that only a few bacteria
can survive a daily dose of carrot salad.
(He didn't speak to yeast/fungi,
but in general he doesn't seem to regard them as serious threats.)
He would be including the lower gut there too, I assume.

Just pointing out the differing interpretations/analyses/diagnoses of the possible problem/s.

narouz said:

I like your theorizing about special difficulties maybe experienced by those of us without appendixes.
Keep reporting!

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thebigpeatowski said:

Upon further reading at various websites and hearing of other's chronic diarrhea, I cannot help but think that at least some of these people are struggling with a yeast overgrowth of the cecum specifically....just a theory, tho. :2cents

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I would like to hear more of what you turn up about us poor appendixless souls, bigp.
As you seem to think,
one theory about the function of the appendix is
that it was like a collection/storage bag
where healthy bacteria was constantly released into the lower gut
for a healthy purpose.

If this is true,
and we don't have that function anymore...
well, how to deal with that/replace that former function?
Periodic fecal implants?
Combined perphaps with periodic blastings of Nystatin?

LucyL said:

thebigpeatowski said:

Yes indeedy narouz, Metronizadole the generic for Flagyl.

I started the Nystatin (oral tablets) because I was unable to stop the diarrhea. I could feel my cecum swell and literally watched my ascending and transverse colon blow up like a bowl of rising yeast dough. The tablets were the fastest way to test my theory that it was yeast causing this reaction by totally irritating my colon...I'm still waiting for my Nystatin powder. When that arrives I will blast the fungus from the other end and figure out how to restore the bacterial population from that end as well. I am so completely done with probiotic pills.

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Have you ever looked into camel milk? It is favored by a lot of people dealing with autism for its beneficial effects on the gut... (Donkey milk also has similar reports).

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Maybe here we are getting into the whole area of A1 v A2 milk...?
I haven't put much stock into that debate in the past
because Peat doesn't seem to.
But...
because we (bigp, me, Peata, others) have gut issues
as at least one aspect of our "presenting symptoms"
the A1 v A2 milk thing...I've been thinking of trying goat milk.
(And why I am experimenting with avoiding nightshades, too.)

BingDing said:

It's a kind of funny thing to say, TBP, but I'm fascinated that you can identify the different parts of your intestine like that. It's all under a layer of fat with me and I haven't a clue, and hope I don't learn about it like you did!

A bit off topic, but FWIW last summer I had 10 days of the same kind of watery diarrhea and by chance I had some lab work done at the time. Serotonin was 525, at the low end of carcinoid tumor range, and the only thing that worked to stop it was 2X4mg ondasetron tabs.

It all went away over time, and a 5HIAA test of serotonin came back normal, have no idea what was going on. But it was a tough time, for sure.

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I am intimately familiar with my intestines NOW, but I certainly could not have identified anything in my guts at the time when my appendix ruptured as I was 70 pounds heavier. That's a WHOLE lot of abdominal fat on a 5'2" frame. Prior to August of 2010 I didn't really know or care where my appendix was... Ever since then, my brain has been trying to figure out WHY I had a ruptured appendix. It's all part of my tenacious need to understand, like a pit bull, I just can't let go...a personality trait that causes me grief in other areas of my life for sure

I had my serotonin tested too at the height of my diarrhea, it was 78. I cannot tell you what a sigh of relief that brought me, but only temporarily as I made myself somewhat deranged with continued research. I would have freaked at a level of 525, Bing Ding, scary time for SURE!!! Which of course reminds me that Peat says most of our serotonin is made in the guts, in the area around the appendix, I think, but I could definitely be wrong on that second part....

sueq said:

Flagyl was prescribed for my cfs by a chronic infection theory doc who treated with a week of antibiotics per month and flagyl was one of her favourites but it made me very ill. 3 days down with the worst migraine and nausea. No gut symptoms but I could never touch it again. At the time she was surprised and I thought I just had a problem tolerating antibiotics as cyclimycin made me ill too - dizzy and more nausea -the only one I could tolerate was doxycycline. Later I read many bad reports on flagyl. Im surprised she was surprised but there's doctors for you. "Side effects??? Gosh how unexpected!!"

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This just goes to show how individual we all are, amazing sueq! I had NO nausea or migraine and actually felt quite good until the diarrhea just plain wore me out and I could tell I was being overtaken by yeast. So strange!!! Like you, I WILL NEVER touch it again, not ever.

LucyL said:

Have you ever looked into camel milk? It is favored by a lot of people dealing with autism for its beneficial effects on the gut... (Donkey milk also has similar reports).

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Hi LucyL, I have thought for years that I'm somewhere on the autistic spectrum, not entirely sure where I fit in (somewhere between Village Idiot and Relentless Obsessive), but NO I have never looked in to camel or donkey milk..LOL

narouz said:

In Peat's view of the gut and endotoxin,
he seems to think, generally,
that bacterial activity is okay
if confined to the lower gut.
I think I'm correct in saying that
but I could be wrong.

Click to expand...

While I do believe that I have suffered from SIBO in the past (for years especially while I was on GAPS and severely hypothyroid), that part of my gut sorted itself out some time last year. I have no other gut symptoms other than what begins in the cecum. SCORE ONE FOR PEAT.

narouz said:

But...this is exactly the area (cecum, ascending & transverse colon)
where you--and maybe me--think we may have problems.
We're speculating yeast.
And of course "that Jorge guy" believes that is the area
where yeast builds a fortress with biofilms that makes it resistant
if not impenetrable
to oral fungicides.
Also (Jorge) that the oral fungicides get so diluted/weakened by encountering
all the other detritus of a poorly functioning gut
on the way down to the cecum area.

So goes the Jorge theory.

Click to expand...

Jorge could be hypothyroid, malnourished, have a low body temperature, etc. I have no way of knowing his specific details. If he low-carbed for any length of time I can tell you for certain that he caused the yeast to go into a more resistant (it hides and forms a shield) and yet ultimately more aggressive form (it will seeks food at all costs to the host). Speaking from my own personal experience, the more I "starved the yeast" the more invasive and resistant it became. Diflucan doesn't touch it and it started to take over my body. I believe Peat would be in full agreement....SCORE TWO FOR PEAT. Yeah, I know I sound mentally ill.

narouz said:

So...the Peatian view and the Jorgean view are at odds.

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Jorge doesn't have the full picture. Peat does not address people with NO appendix...not sure why.

narouz said:

Also, with Peat, he has said in interviews that only a few bacteria
can survive a daily dose of carrot salad.
(He didn't speak to yeast/fungi,
but in general he doesn't seem to regard them as serious threats.)
He would be including the lower gut there too, I assume.

Click to expand...

The carrot salad is very good and it IS INDEED anti-fungal too, but when I am experiencing a severe overgrowth the carrot salad is not enough to restore balance quickly.

narouz said:

As you seem to think,
one theory about the function of the appendix is
that it was like a collection/storage bag
where healthy bacteria was constantly released into the lower gut
for a healthy purpose.

Click to expand...

Yes, my theory is that the bacteria stored there in the "useless organ" keeps fungus in check. Without this useless appendix you are prone to a fungal overgrowth that can become quite irritating very quickly.

narouz said:

If this is true,
and we don't have that function anymore...
well, how to deal with that/replace that former function?
Periodic fecal implants?
Combined perphaps with periodic blastings of Nystatin?

Click to expand...

That's precisely where I'm at in my experiment....I'm hoping the Nystatin enema will act as a quick aid to keep yeast in check while my own body restores the missing gut flora through DIET, if that's possible. I seemed to have managed it at least partially until I had to take antibiotics again. Hoping the fecal transplant will not be necessary, just not sure on that yet. I do know probiotic pills won't provide EVERY SPECIES I need in the QUANTITIES that I seem to need.

narouz said:

Bing-
Ondasetron...that's one I haven't experimented with.
Could you say a little about that experience,
and maybe about some of the other dietary things you changed
if any
that helped you out of that bad time?

Click to expand...

Narouz

Peatarian was a big advocate of ondasetron, it might be worth looking up some of her posts about it. I was using mag glycinate pretty freely and cascara sagrada, because Ray said a lot of good things about it, and at first thought it was just that. Quitting those didn't help, one 4mg ondasetron didn't help, charcoal didn't help. 10 days of it wears a body down, I'm just glad the two tabs worked.

Interesting Bing, I started using mag glycinate around the holidays and had some issues. I think it was tara that pointed out magnesium can make a person too alkaline and fungus will grow more freely in an alkaline environment. I quit taking it immediately. I do know that intestinal irritation can raise serotonin levels. What do you suppose could have been irritating your intestines? Charcoal didn't help me either....and you're spot on, about the ninth or tenth day of chronic runs and I've had it! I start getting desperate.


When I was a small child I thoroughly enjoyed doing jigsaw puzzles, especially the big ones like 5000 pieces. I liken the unraveling of health problems to solving a giant jigsaw puzzle, maybe this puzzle has 30,000 pieces or more. Who knows? The human body is ENORMOUSLY complex.

In my opinion, Ray Peat's marvelous brain has the ability to see how most of the interlocking pieces of the puzzle go together. One of the best parts of his brain is his ability to clump together pieces that control whole portions of the puzzle. This sort of simplifies everything, especially for less intelligent people like me that seriously struggle with understanding the chemistry behind it all. His humility and willingness to share this with the world is my other favorite part of his brain....wow.

He may not have every single piece to my particular puzzle, how could he? But he has enough of it figured out to point people in the right direction. If you rigidly control for the key things that he talks about, stuff starts to shift, pieces begin to fall into place. As the pieces fall into place the picture becomes more clear. It becomes vastly easier to hone in lingering issues...and it also becomes readily apparent which environmental substances are truly detrimental. But I digress once again....

BingDing said:

narouz said:

Bing-
Ondasetron...that's one I haven't experimented with.
Could you say a little about that experience,
and maybe about some of the other dietary things you changed
if any
that helped you out of that bad time?

Click to expand...

Narouz

Peatarian was a big advocate of ondasetron, it might be worth looking up some of her posts about it. I was using mag glycinate pretty freely and cascara sagrada, because Ray said a lot of good things about it, and at first thought it was just that. Quitting those didn't help, one 4mg ondasetron didn't help, charcoal didn't help. 10 days of it wears a body down, I'm just glad the two tabs worked.

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Thanks, Bing.
Yes, I remember her touting ondasetron.
So...the 2 tabs of it put a stop to your diarrhea.
Do you also ascribe your recovery from the high serotonin to the ondasetron,
or did you change other elements of you diet/life?

narouz said:

Thanks, Bing.
Yes, I remember her touting ondasetron.
So...the 2 tabs of it put a stop to your diarrhea.
Do you also ascribe your recovery from the high serotonin to the ondasetron,
or did you change other elements of you diet/life?

Click to expand...

If TBP will forgive a mini-hijack of her thread, I had tried Seriphos (phosphorylated serine) right before the diarrhea and thought that might have been the cause, total guess. I posted about it here.

I did not use any more ondasetron for two months, thinking that if a carcinoid tumor was present I didn't want to mask the main symptom, serotonin. After two months the same test/lab reported serotonin at 265 or something like that, so it was coming down without ondasetron.

However, other lab work at the time said both MTHFR mutations, high homocystiene, low lipoic acid, low CoQ10 , low glutathione, low dopamine, low nor/epinephrine, and low copper. So I did a boatload of research over the summer and did change many supplements to address those results. No way of knowing how those affected serotonin.

There are threads on the forum about choline and betaine that I posted my thoughts, I won't clutter TBP's thread with links.

The really good part of the whole thing is that I never really panicked, or for more than the first few hours after seeing the labs, LOL. Ray is so level headed and knowledgeable, I just never thought that any of it was insurmountable. And it turned out I was right.

BingDing said:

If TBP will forgive a mini-hijack of her thread, I had tried Seriphos (phosphorylated serine) right before the diarrhea and thought that might have been the cause, total guess. I posted about it here.


The really good part of the whole thing is that I never really panicked, or for more than the first few hours after seeing the labs, LOL. Ray is so level headed and knowledgeable, I just never thought that any of it was insurmountable. And it turned out I was right.

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No worries on clutter/hijacking Bing.

I do have one question tho...please note that I had to drop organic chemistry TWICE while I was in college cuz I'm just not smart enough, but WHY ON EARTH were you taking Seriphos??? Isn't that a soybean derived PUFA bomb? Like I said, I truly don't know sh*t from shinola when it comes to chemistry so please educate me

Yes, nothing is insurmountable, you are absolutely 100% correct there...still amazed that you didn't launch into a full on panic with serotonin over 500!!! Gasp *faints*

I saw a post about Seriphos helping with high cortisol and, I can only say doh, took it without even researching it. Dain bramage, maybe, LOL.

I was doing really good at the time and, as Jerry and the boys tell us, "when life looks like Easy Street, there is danger at your door".



Edit:better track

Awe, I LOVE The Dead, thanks Bing..Jerry went waaaaay too early. Every silver lining has a touch of grey....but, we WILL get by.

http://youtu.be/nCYbRmSlW-M

Bigpeat I've learned a lot from your experiences as well as those of people like Jennifer and Lindsay. I used to think there was no common ground as my gut never took over my life as per some of your experiences. However I realized that my chronic constipation and some mildish indigestion was in fact also a dysfunctional gut and causing major havoc in my life, just not making the 'scene of the crime' impossible to miss or ignore which is why I overlooked it for so long.

sueq, I'm so happy we can all share and learn from each other. One interesting thing to note: years ago I had chronic constipation and indigestion, that was my M.O. for decades until my appendix ruptured which changed EVERYTHING. I now think that gut dysfunction in any form (even mild) should probably be addressed. Do you use apple cider vinegar or betaine HCL?

I use acv on the daily carrot. I've used betaine in the past, was not sure whether it helped. Is the reason behind the acv also to increase stomach acid? I've been looking into the issue for my daughter actually as my own indigestion has improved. I'm hoping due to thyroid / better metabolism / liver support. The constipation too has improved, that may be the mag bicarb water that I somehow seem to really enjoy and drink a glass a day of, at least. Good/bad thing if it's that, do you know? I'm also minimizing fat and raising minerals and I have some liver improvement signs (coffee tolerance) which hopefully mean better control of estrogen. Holding thumbs.

My 14 year old, always prone to heartburn, finds Swedish bitters control it, I think it may be because it's a stomach acid stimulator. But she just had a bad 4 days with acid reflux and a choking sensation, which I've been trying to help her find a way to manage so as not to go down the eat less - digest less - PPI downward spiral that so many, often the tiny ones (she's tiny too) get really badly stuck in. Jelly or homemade chicken soup with chicken feet stock at every meal seem to have healed her for now, and I've told her to have one or the other every day from now on and whatever she does, not to skip meals.

Sorry - long digression! Looking back do you think the appendix might have been connected to the long term indigestion/constipation? Would you have done anything else about them had you known then what you know now? And do you think it's worth taking more acv?

sueq said:

I use acv on the daily carrot. I've used betaine in the past, was not sure whether it helped. Is the reason behind the acv also to increase stomach acid?

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Yes and it has germicidal properties.

sueq said:

I've been looking into the issue for my daughter actually as my own indigestion has improved. I'm hoping due to thyroid / better metabolism / liver support. The constipation too has improved, that may be the mag bicarb water that I somehow seem to really enjoy and drink a glass a day of, at least. Good/bad thing if it's that, do you know?

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Unfortunately, I have no experience with the mag/bicarb water so I can't say. But if it feels right to you, go for it!!! Intuition is really important.

sueq said:

I'm also minimizing fat and raising minerals and I have some liver improvement signs (coffee tolerance) which hopefully mean better control of estrogen. Holding thumbs.

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HOORAY!!! Minerals are absolutely essential, calcium especially and do you eat seafood twice a week?

sueq said:

My 14 year old, always prone to heartburn, finds Swedish bitters control it, I think it may be because it's a stomach acid stimulator. But she just had a bad 4 days with acid reflux and a choking sensation, which I've been trying to help her find a way to manage so as not to go down the eat less - digest less - PPI downward spiral that so many, often the tiny ones (she's tiny too) get really badly stuck in. Jelly or homemade chicken soup with chicken feet stock at every meal seem to have healed her for now, and I've told her to have one or the other every day from now on and whatever she does, not to skip meals.

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She IS SO FORTUNATE to have a mother like you. What a blessing, truly!!! I'm not exaggerating when I say that learning how to feed ourselves properly in spite of our less than optimal food supply will make all the difference in the world for her own health and that of her future offspring.

sueq said:

Sorry - long digression! Looking back do you think the appendix might have been connected to the long term indigestion/constipation? Would you have done anything else about them had you known then what you know now? And do you think it's worth taking more acv?

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Hindsight being 20/20, I would say that being severely hypothyroid and eating tons of wheat and PUFA (Standard American Diet) contributed hugely to my long term indigestion/chronic constipation. I'm pretty sure that PUFA interrupts certain digestive enzymes. I think I had SIBO for decades. I was morbidly obese and seriously estrogen dominant along with churning out massive stress hormones due to my chronically suppressed thyroid. Also, I had a glyphosate (Round-Up) exposure that probably tipped the balance, tho I cannot prove it. I was hospitalized with 48 or so hours of spraying and I read a study that says glyphosate disrupts gut flora.

What would I do differently? ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!!! I would have cut all starch and PUFA from my diet immediately. I never would have taken fish and flax seed oil. I never would have gone low-carb, especially for so long. I would have upped my thyroid medication sooner and I would have done everything humanly possible to speed transit time in the gut, not only to get rid of estrogen, but also endotoxin. I think I also would have simplified my life a lot sooner, my stress levels were UNREAL. I would have avoided medical radiation as well.

So here's where I'm at today. I have had a fever for two days....A FEVER, people!!! Currently at 100.6. I haven't had a fever in years....maybe DECADES. My family used to always say "Oh, mom never gets sick." And it's true, I went for years and years and never got acutely ill....EXCEPT that I was chronically sick, low energy, fatigue, always felt like death, essentially a walking corpse...no matter what I tried. Never caught what others had tho.

When my appendix ruptured and I went to the hospital, I recall the nurse making the comment that the IV antibiotics must have been working because I didn't have a fever despite a RAGING INFECTION. I remember being stone cold and asking for more blankets and socks because I was freezing to death even tho it was 90 degrees out in August.

So, I'm now adding to my previous theory: I think that PUFA stored in the tissues can and will suppress a person's immune system. I have often wondered why my body could never fight off the Candida on it's own. I read a lot about folks who are immuno-suppressed. I don't have AIDS, why the heck was my immune system so depressed???

I have been Peating for over a year and practicing intuitive eating for close to 8 months now. Last night, just before bed, all I wanted was chocolate and Mexican Coke. I ate 1 & 1/2 chocolate bars and a coke at 10:00 p.m., not exactly the kind of thing they tell you to eat while fighting Candida. But I'm finding that the MORE sugar I eat the more my immune system ramps up, wtf? The mainstream line of thinking is that sugar suppresses the immune system, I gotta say, I think "they" are exactly dead wrong.

I am boiling lava hot, for no apparent reason, other than it appears that my body is FINALLY fighting something that I have desperately tried to eradicate for decades. Dense nutrition, PUFA FREE and NO silly supplemental interference, who knew? At least it's my theory...despite the inescapable heat, I feel marvelous....like my immune system is working PROPERLY for the first time in a very very long time, many years.

The only supps I am currently taking are a few B vits. and the occasional liquid drop of D. I quit all thyroid last month. I put MB (Magic Bullet aka Methylene Blue) on hold while I took the Nystatin for a few days. The last time I took Nystatin was last Friday. Will add Magic Bullet back later, I wanna see what my body is gonna do next....My appetite is through the roof, it's almost annoying, but I'll take it.

I think your theorizing is pretty good, BP, it makes sense to me. I hit a 100.4 once and figured the definition of fever was wrong, hahaha.

PUFA is well known as immunosuppressive. Organ transplant patients are given intravenous fish oil to suppress the production of T cells, so the organ doesn't get rejected. They used to use corn oil but found fish oil did it better.

OMG Bing, when I used to take fish oil on a daily basis I constantly had cold sores, one after the other. As soon as one would heal, I would get ANOTHER one!!! I kept going back to my doc and telling her that I felt like my immune system was suppressed. She tested me for all kinds of auto-immune stuff, all came back negative. Wasn't until I quit the fish oil that my skin finally stopped erupting in sores. Nice.

Eating lots of carbs while strictly avoiding all PUFA seems to be rebuilding my tattered immune system. I guess RP is right once again....I continually stand in total awe of that dude's brain.

I guess they are pushing fish oil in baby formula now, we're doomed.