Carb And Fat Separation Didn’t Work - I’m Counting Calories Now

[tankasnowgod]

Multiple times it has been posted on these forums that protein deficiency diets have the same benefits of caloric restriction.

Ray has a whole article speaking against the deadly 4 AA's (Tryptophan, Cystine, Methionine, Histidine).

Ray himself said (in the same article) that you can be in a functional protein deficit, even in a high-ish protein diet.

It doesn't take a lot of reading in between the lines to connect the dots, between all that and my own experiences, that restricting protein absolutely can be therapeutic, but while directly injecting aminos both to avoid deficiency and because digestion can be poor enough to where you wouldn't be able to get the aminos otherwise anyway, even while eating protein. So why eat protein and subject yourself to the bad AA's, if doing so won't even give you the good AA's? I see no reason to.

Caloric deficits are boring and not interesting to me, they do not restore metabolism. I'm not beating that dead horse, but I'm more interested in restoring metabolism than losing weight. But losing weight automatically comes with an improved metabolism, so I don't even need to focus on it anyway.

Well, I would suggest you run your ideas by Ray in a private email to see if he agrees with your interpretation. I know lots of members here have, and would likely share his email via PM (For the record, I don't know his email).

You can be uninterested in caloric deficits and such, but just because a caloric deficit won't necessarily improve metabolism, that does not imply that a caloric surplus will necessarily improve metabolism, either. Your own comments and experience seem to validate this, as you have constantly gained weight (on higher timeframes) all while eating in the area that's considered a surplus.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I'm starting to think fat gain is a sign of a lack of pleasure in your life. Not in terms of sex or alcohol, but in terms of being stimulated by your job, friends, hobbies. A shift to a "hot" left-brain dominance as opposed to the "cool" right-brain dominance of something who is living a very satisfying life with minimal chronic stress.

well in my case, that is impossible. I have the most pleasurable wonderful life. I feel great gratitude every day, have incredibly fulfilling work, and an incredibly rewarding personal life in every sphere.

I mentioned it before. There are "types". I am a certain type. I have high drive, high pleasure, very responsive to dietary changes, lots of inertia when it comes to supplements (they don't change things for me that easily or quickly). I sleep very well.

I'm almost 60 years old. I can't imagine that people who are rail thin are healthier than I am. Sorry.

That said, I think I would do better with a bit less belly fat. I am not sure about that but I think so.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Sad to see you give up and count calories man.

Meanwhile, I believe I've recently discovered how to lose weight on high calories AND improve metabolism.

High carbs, very low fat, very low protein -> Directly supplement aminos. So basically almost vegan, but supplement aminos (Eating protein has many proven problems, many of which are discussed by people on these forums and Ray too, to a degree)

I don' think that isolated amino supplements are very safe. They are okay short term but I am not interested. I take collagen and gelatin to great effect but I think those are "Peaty" while isolated aminos are not.

Dr. Peat has also said that fat is healthy and is not a fan of very low fat. I think I have benefited from lowering fat amounts, but very low fat results in difficulties with digestion and feeling crummy for me.

I define a good diet as long-term sustainable and creating a state of improved well-being. By the definition of mine, your idea is not for me.

 

[SOMO]

Well, I would suggest you run your ideas by Ray in a private email to see if he agrees with your interpretation. I know lots of members here have, and would likely share his email via PM (For the record, I don't know his email).

You can be uninterested in caloric deficits and such, but just because a caloric deficit won't necessarily improve metabolism, that does not imply that a caloric surplus will necessarily improve metabolism, either. Your own comments and experience seem to validate this, as you have constantly gained weight (on higher timeframes) all while eating in the area that's considered a surplus.

I disagree with, but only on the basis of "futile cycling" and BMR.
Increased CHO in the diet causes increased glucose oxidation. And increased mass increases BMR/EE.

well in my case, that is impossible. I have the most pleasurable wonderful life. I feel great gratitude every day, have incredibly fulfilling work, and an incredibly rewarding personal life in every sphere.

I mentioned it before. There are "types". I am a certain type. I have high drive, high pleasure, very responsive to dietary changes, lots of inertia when it comes to supplements (they don't change things for me that easily or quickly). I sleep very well.

I'm almost 60 years old. I can't imagine that people who are rail thin are healthier than I am. Sorry.

That said, I think I would do better with a bit less belly fat. I am not sure about that but I think so.

Besides aesthetics, belly fat is generally considered less healthy than fat elsewhere.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Restricting calories does cause weight loss, but at the cost of decreasing Thyroid function.

Which will make future weight loss more difficult and is probably responsible for the "Rebounding" effect where many people gain EXTRA weight that they did not have before dieting.

why should it if it is modest?

I agree with rebounding, but maybe only for extremes. I'm not doing extremes. I'm just doing mild calorie reduction. My body temps are HIGHER when I wake up than they were.

 

[Cirion]

why should it if it is modest?

I agree with rebounding, but maybe only for extremes. I'm not doing extremes. I'm just doing mild calorie reduction. My body temps are HIGHER when I wake up than they were.

As long as your temps and pulses are high, you're golden, these are the true markers of metabolism. As is CO2 and a few others, if you can afford a capnograph. Fix temp/pulses/CO2, fix ALL other diseases and disorders down the chain, including obesity. High metabolism is the secret to the "Fountain of Youth" and all it entails. I agree that my method to increased metabolism might not apply to all(high carb low fat low protein), but Fixing temps/pulses/CO2 IS however a universal strategy to everyone, in whatever manner you achieve it in.

 

[lampofred]

High metabolism is the secret to the "Fountain of Youth" and all it entails.

I was reading Brave New World recently (written in 1932) and the "secret of lifelong youth" is written to be supplements of gonadal steroids, artificially stimulating magnesium to prevent calcium from getting too high (magnesium is related to progesterone and calcium is related to estrogen), and perpetually stimulating the metabolism to run faster than normal.

So this was all known several decades ago, even by people who were not scientists...

 

[Ron J]

As long as your temps and pulses are high, you're golden, these are the true markers of metabolism. As is CO2 and a few others, if you can afford a capnograph. Fix temp/pulses/CO2, fix ALL other diseases and disorders down the chain, including obesity. High metabolism is the secret to the "Fountain of Youth" and all it entails. I agree that my method to increased metabolism might not apply to all(high carb low fat low protein), but Fixing temps/pulses/CO2 IS however a universal strategy to everyone, in whatever manner you achieve it in.

What's your opinion about the thermogenic/insulating effect of fatty tissue someone mentioned? Do you think that may skew health parameters similar to other stress hormones that increase temperature/pulse?

 

[Cirion]

What's your opinion about the thermogenic/insulating effect of fatty tissue someone mentioned? Do you think that may skew health parameters similar to other stress hormones that increase temperature/pulse?

Stress can increase pulse in particular in the short term but it (in my experience) can not increase both temp AND pulse in the morning when you wake up. Ray does say you should look at both numbers and not just one or the other for this reason. At this point, I've tracked my temps and pulses so long that I literally can guess what my temp and pulse is to fair accuracy, before even touching the thermometer or my pulse measuring app. Feeling awesome? Temp will be 98.6 and pulse 80-90+. Guaranteed. Feeling average? Temp like 98-98.2, pulse maybe 70-80. Feeling like crap? Temp will be in the 97's and pulse in the 60s. And I'm usually right.

Every day that I wake up in a low metabolism mode, my temp and pulse is low. Without fail.

That said, that's why tracking as much as possible is useful. For example - Mood/energy levels kinda like I just mentioned. This parameter is a little more subjective than temp or pulse, but is helpful in conjunction to weed out any possible days where stress is confounding things.

Weight change (gain or loss) is a valuable metric too. If your temp is high, pulse is high, and weight is lost, this is very good news in terms of metabolism.

Conversely, on days I feel bad (low temp low pulse) I usually gain weight also. It's all connected.

 

[ecstatichamster]

As long as your temps and pulses are high, you're golden, these are the true markers of metabolism. As is CO2 and a few others, if you can afford a capnograph. Fix temp/pulses/CO2, fix ALL other diseases and disorders down the chain, including obesity. High metabolism is the secret to the "Fountain of Youth" and all it entails. I agree that my method to increased metabolism might not apply to all(high carb low fat low protein), but Fixing temps/pulses/CO2 IS however a universal strategy to everyone, in whatever manner you achieve it in.

I am a Buteyko coach. My CO2 is high. Paradoxically this is also what I think lowered my metabolism.

 

[Cirion]

I am a Buteyko coach. My CO2 is high. Paradoxically this is also what I think lowered my metabolism.

Interesting. I guess it's possible to have too high CO2, but that'd be hard to accomplish.

Do you have any measurement #'s?

Former member visionofstrength said measuring 6% saturation of CO2 using a capnograph is roughly the point of optimality.

Raising CO2 outside of dietary methods COULD damage your metabolism, by ramping it up artificially, and then not supplying the nutrients required. That's why excess caffeine or thyroid can be unhelpful if diet isn't great. Visionofstrength also promoted very high caloric intake, and his posts inspired some of my current ideas/beliefs.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Interesting. I guess it's possible to have too high CO2, but that'd be hard to accomplish.

Do you have any measurement #'s?

Former member visionofstrength said measuring 6% saturation of CO2 using a capnograph is roughly the point of optimality.

My CP is around 35-40.

I do not have a capnograph (yet?)

 

[danielbb]

Lot of great ideas expressed in this thread. In the other carb/fat mixing thread, I think I mentioned there were no free lunches as how to shed excess body-fat. What I discovered with the carb/fat mixing ideas, was that even on a low caloric load (e.g., 1500 calories/day) and mindful exercise, I was rapidly gaining weight eating things like ice cream and milk. I attributed most of that weight gain to water weight which seems to me to be a sign of inflammation, when I became more mindful of mixing, the "water" weight seemed to disappear just as rapidly as I gained it. If I eat a high fat meal, I've found a reasonable amount of carbs can be mixed at the same time. If I eat a high carb meal, I've found a reasonable amount of fat can be mixed at the same time. With a substance like ice cream, you are talking about a 50/50 mix and for me, that caused inflammatory problems (I believe). My writings in the other thread were meant to allow each person to figure out a system that was tailored uniquely to themselves. Some may not experience problems by mixing. Others (like me) have to be more mindful it seems. My weight has regulated nicely ever since I managed the concurrent mixture of carbs and fat in a more mindful manner.

With respect to mobilizing your fat stores which is the subject of this thread (i.e., shedding body fat), Intermittent Fasting is the best technique I have ever found but shedding body fat does require some form of caloric restriction in some form (you need to use your internal fat stores for energy versus food intake for energy). I like eating one or two decent meals a day rather than restricting myself to eating like a bird at each meal. That is a personal preference however. When I skip a meal or two (based on a desired fat loss goal for the week), I put my mind into productive efforts at work to take my mind off things. I am at my target body weight now, but almost without fail, I find on Mondays, no matter how healthy I eat over the weekend, I tend to be up 2-4 lbs on Monday. I usually skip breakfast and lunch on Monday and I am almost always at my target body weight by Tuesday morning. The rest of the week, I tend to eat two meals a day but if I feel like three meals on a given day, I eat. There are thousands of different ways to restrict calories without becoming obsessive about it and/or causing stress or thinking about hunger all the time. Based on my experiences outlined in the carb/fat mixing thread, I've found my hunger hormones and associated signals to be much more regulated and now seem more related to the amount of energy I actually need on a given day versus feeling like I am starved all the time and thus, feel like I need to endlessly stuff my pie-hole over the amount of energy I actually need.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I have discussed this in the past on the forum. Increasing CP often lowers metabolism. Not sure why. It is very common. I was very cold for the first year or two. Other coaches say the same thing with their clients as with me, and with my clients.

I never realized it was depressing thyroid and metabolism. But it does.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Lot of great ideas expressed in this thread. In the other carb/fat mixing thread, I think I mentioned there were no free lunches as how to shed excess body-fat. What I discovered with the carb/fat mixing ideas, was that even on a low caloric load (e.g., 1500 calories/day) and mindful exercise, I was rapidly gaining weight eating things like ice cream and milk. I attributed most of that weight gain to water weight which seems to me to be a sign of inflammation, when I became more mindful of mixing, the "water" weight seemed to disappear just as rapidly as I gained it. If I eat a high fat meal, I've found a reasonable amount of carbs can be mixed at the same time. If I eat a high carb meal, I've found a reasonable amount of fat can be mixed at the same time. With a substance like ice cream, you are talking about a 50/50 mix and for me, that caused inflammatory problems (I believe). My writings in the other thread were meant to allow each person to figure out a system that was tailored uniquely to themselves. Some may not experience problems by mixing. Others (like me) have to be more mindful it seems. My weight has regulated nicely ever since I managed the concurrent mixture of carbs and fat in a more mindful manner.

With respect to mobilizing your fat stores which is the subject of this thread (i.e., shedding body fat), Intermittent Fasting is the best technique I have ever found but shedding body fat does require some form of caloric restriction in some form (you need to use your internal fat stores for energy versus food intake for energy). I like eating one or two decent meals a day rather than restricting myself to eating like a bird at each meal. That is a personal preference however. When I skip a meal or two (based on a desired fat loss goal for the week), I put my mind into productive efforts at work to take my mind off things. I am at my target body weight now, but almost without fail, I find on Mondays, no matter how healthy I eat over the weekend, I tend to be up 2-4 lbs on Monday. I usually skip breakfast and lunch on Monday and I am almost always at my target body weight by Tuesday morning. The rest of the week, I tend to eat two meals a day but if I feel like three meals on a given day, I eat. There are thousands of different ways to restrict calories without becoming obsessive about it and/or causing stress or thinking about hunger all the time. Based on my experiences outlined in the carb/fat mixing thread, I've found my hunger hormones and associated signals to be much more regulated and now seem more related to the amount of energy I actually need on a given day versus feeling like I am starved all the time and thus, feel like I need to endlessly stuff my pie-hole over the amount of energy I actually need.

I’m glad to hear it.

I think this is a form of calorie restriction. Somehow that gets a bad name here. It isn’t for everyone. Some “types” must eat 5000 calories a day.

I’m not that type.

I also doing think intermittent fasting is that great. So i don’t do that (although I fasted for 36 hours a few days ago when I was fighting off a cold/flu...it worked and I’m fine today.)

I think some people must restrict calories in order to lose fat. The trick is not too much, not too fast...so as not to lose much lean mass.

 

[SB4]

@ecstatichamster I know it is not peaty at all but perhaps using ketosis to get rid of excess weight and then transitioning into a different diet is better than gaining weight on a peat diet, health wise.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I disagree with, but only on the basis of "futile cycling" and BMR.
Increased CHO in the diet causes increased glucose oxidation. And increased mass increases BMR/EE.

Well, I think it largely matters why metabolism is low in the first place. I think a lot of people would find that something like pregnenolone or thyroid (or both) might be necessary to help improve metabolism, along with the other pro metabolic substances discussed here. It might be a condition that requires surgery, like a tumor on the pituitary. It could also be something like quitting a stressful job or moving to a high altitude, something that isn't diet related at all.

There are certainly testimonials where increasing calories, and pretty much nothing else, has led to increased metabolism and little to no fat gain, but that does not seem to apply to the vast majority of people on this forum or in general.

 

[tankasnowgod]

@ecstatichamster I know it is not peaty at all but perhaps using ketosis to get rid of excess weight and then transitioning into a different diet is better than gaining weight on a peat diet, health wise.

Weight loss can be achieved on a Peat inspired diet, and a ketogenic diet does not necessarily lead to weight loss.

 

[danielbb]

I think some people must restrict calories in order to lose fat. The trick is not too much, not too fast...so as not to lose much lean mass.

Yes, agreed. You try and lose your body fat overnight, (like I attempted to do initially), and it can cause problems. I experienced headaches, moodiness, and grumpiness to name but a few of the symptoms. I've gained muscle while losing almost all my body fat. Being reasonable with the weight loss goal (taking about a year or so to lose it) seems to allow things to happen like they ought to without the negative side-effects like losing muscle at the same time. That said, many when they lose some of their fat, tend to reward themselves for the intermediate achievement (e.g., cheat meals on weekends). I've found cheat meals set me back for one or two weeks so I no longer indulge in them. I prepare my own food (mostly or select whole foods in restaurants like steak and vegetables), mindful of the amount of carbs and fat mixed concurrently, and I've not had any relapses. I do not believe in restricting anything a person likes to eat. Ice cream is a known problem with me. If I am eating it out, I try and use portion control (e.g., a small ice cream cone or a single scoop in a bowl). A great substitute that I eat almost everyday is 0% fat Greek Yogurt topped with a healthy dose of honey. That might sound awful to some, but I cannot explain how delicious and satisfying that is without the metabolic penalty that I have experienced with ice cream. Processed frozen fruit (e.g., cantaloupe and honeydew) is also an outstanding substitute where calories in the concoction really do not need much accounting for (if any). I 've mentioned I love pizza and most would consider that off-limits when trying to lose weight. I've found if I make regular crust pizza, that low-fat cheese (or a reasonable amount of regular cheese) and vegetable toppings work great. Alternatively, I've found pre-made cauliflower crusts (no pufa used) and I then use with that style crust healthy doses of regular cheese and meat such as pepperoni or sausage and of course any vegetables we may want. By being mindful of the mixing issue, rather than eating the whole pizza like I used to, I feel satisfied after 3-4 pieces.

 

[lampofred]

well in my case, that is impossible. I have the most pleasurable wonderful life. I feel great gratitude every day, have incredibly fulfilling work, and an incredibly rewarding personal life in every sphere.

I mentioned it before. There are "types". I am a certain type. I have high drive, high pleasure, very responsive to dietary changes, lots of inertia when it comes to supplements (they don't change things for me that easily or quickly). I sleep very well.

I'm almost 60 years old. I can't imagine that people who are rail thin are healthier than I am. Sorry.

That said, I think I would do better with a bit less belly fat. I am not sure about that but I think so.

I'm not saying I'm correct, but just trying to play devil's advocate: older people tend to be more optimistic than young people, and in a lot of cases, I don't think it's true optimism. Rather, it's a dissociated kind of optimism due to a split between mind and body where the mind isn't registering the body's pain signals. I think it's because of elevated serotonin (too much sodium channel firing relative to potassium channels, maybe magnesium channels as well -- do you have any body pains/myalgia/things of that nature?), and I think Buteyko can accelerate this tendency towards unrealistic optimism/serotonin that happens with age (even though it undoubtedly does have it's health benefits because of the elevated CO2). CO2 needs to be balanced with high oxygen (thyroid driven glucose oxidation not only increases CO2 but also spares oxygen, which is why it is so good for you), whereas Buteyko raises CO2 without increasing oxygen in proportion, leading to some dissociation.