Coffee Inhibits Cortisol Synthesis

[yoshiesque]

If i am struggling from poor sleep, mainly due to family/life/work stresses, should I be drinking coffee still? Because I was reading something by Chris Kresser where he says that Coffee is great but for those who are really stressed with cortisol issues, it may be best to stop coffee until you get that sorted.

 

[tara]

How long does the cortisol-lowering effect of coffee last?
Could that be a contributor to why I find it so hard to wake up and get moving in the morning after a little coffee the day/evening before?

 

[DaveFoster]

@haidut This has probably been asked before, but does T3 share all the benefits of coffee; mainly I mean Parkinson's/dopamine and liver benefits.

 

[haidut]

@haidut This has probably been asked before, but does T3 share all the benefits of coffee; mainly I mean Parkinson's/dopamine and liver benefits.

I think it does share most of them, except possibly the direct dopaminergic effects of caffeine. T3 contributes to proper serotonin disposal but I am not sure how directly dopaminergic it is as it has no effect on adenosine as far as I know.

 

[Xisca]

I LOOSE weight with stress, and I put on weight, just the necessary, when I feel better...
Why should we all put on weight with stress?

 

[tyw]

@haidut This has probably been asked before, but does T3 share all the benefits of coffee; mainly I mean Parkinson's/dopamine and liver benefits.

I think it does share most of them, except possibly the direct dopaminergic effects of caffeine. T3 contributes to proper serotonin disposal but I am not sure how directly dopaminergic it is as it has no effect on adenosine as far as I know.

Context matters though, and caffeine probably is the more general-purpose and acute-acting compound.

Example: you are stressed -- among many other things, cortisol is high, and PUFAs are mobilised. The activity of T3 gets inhibited by PUFAs, whereas Caffeine will continue to do its work.

.....

 

[haidut]

Context matters though, and caffeine probably is the more general-purpose and acute-acting compound.

Example: you are stressed -- among many other things, cortisol is high, and PUFAs are mobilised. The activity of T3 gets inhibited by PUFAs, whereas Caffeine will continue to do its work.

.....

You actually raise an interesting point. Given that T3 activity and entry into the cell can get inhibited by PUFA, it would help to take T3 with something that can get it inside the cell even in conditions of high PUFA. Caffeine (and especially its metabolite theacrine) increases cellular entry of pretty much any lipophillic chemical that is having trouble getting inside the cell. So, it seems that taking T3 with small dose of caffeine (as little as 50mg can work) can help bypass the inhibition of T3 entry into the cell by PUFA. See below study for more info on caffeine and thearcine increasing intracellular bioavailability of various compounds.
1,3,7,9-tetramethyluric acid--a chromosome-damaging agent occurring as a natural metabolite in certain caffeine-producing plants. - PubMed - NCBI
This is actually one of the reasons for my product Oxidal containing caffeine. Methylene blue can also have trouble entering the cell when FFA are high, so a little caffeine helps it get inside and do its good.
Finally, given that magnesium entry into the cell depends on proper ATP production (as magnesium floats around as MgATP complex) taking magnesium with caffeine can increase cellular uptake of magnesium as well. I have sort of confirmed that this works as taking 1g magnesium on its own can give me liquid stools, but taking the same amount with 200mg caffeine never produces these effects.

 

[tyw]

I LOOSE weight with stress, and I put on weight, just the necessary, when I feel better...
Why should we all put on weight with stress?

"Putting on weight" needs to be defined.
eg:
- How much?
- What type of weight? (fat? muscle? other lean tissue? just water?)
- How quickly?

In some acute stress situations, we may just be looking at water weight swings (which can easily have the appearance of "getting fat').

----

The initial stress response, if you're healthy enough, is a metabolism boosting, but catabolic process. For as long as there are enough resources to catabolise, and the stress response remains robust, this sort of activity can go on ...... to major detriment in the long run, but increased energy in the short run .....

Some people may feel the need to eat less under these scenarios, and combined with the added catabolic action, will tend to lose mass of all forms. If they do not compensate by over-eating afterward, then you get the typical "stress wasting" symptoms. This sort of phenomena is well documented.

More common in today's world though, are frequent bouts of high stress, followed by over-compensatory eating in what is now a relatively depressed metabolism; Stress hormones get you transient gains in metabolic capacity, but only when the stress response is active -- baseline metabolism is likely reduced, for a multitude of reasons ranging from high PUFA FFAs, to actual mitochondrial damage or inhibition (eg: Nitric Oxide blocking Complex 4).

Then of course, people eat "high reward" foods that contain lots of PUFA, and make the issue even worse in the long run. No wonder why the more common response is to get fat under stress.

....

 

[tyw]

You actually raise an interesting point. Given that T3 activity and entry into the cell can get inhibited by PUFA, it would help to take T3 with something that can get it inside the cell even in conditions of high PUFA. Caffeine (and especially its metabolite theacrine) increases cellular entry of pretty much any lipophillic chemical that is having trouble getting inside the cell. So, it seems that taking T3 with small dose of caffeine (as little as 50mg can work) can help bypass the inhibition of T3 entry into the cell by PUFA. See below study for more info on caffeine and thearcine increasing intracellular bioavailability of various compounds.
1,3,7,9-tetramethyluric acid--a chromosome-damaging agent occurring as a natural metabolite in certain caffeine-producing plants. - PubMed - NCBI
This is actually one of the reasons for my product Oxidal containing caffeine. Methylene blue can also have trouble entering the cell when FFA are high, so a little caffeine helps it get inside and do its good.
Finally, given that magnesium entry into the cell depends on proper ATP production (as magnesium floats around as MgATP complex) taking magnesium with caffeine can increase cellular uptake of magnesium as well. I have sort of confirmed that this works as taking 1g magnesium on its own can give me liquid stools, but taking the same amount with 200mg caffeine never produces these effects.

Agree.

By the same token, I think this would apply to Thyroxine as well -- http://press.endocrine.org/doi/10.1210/edrv.22.4.0435?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=pubmed

Details in section 'III. Transport of Thyroid Hormones into Isolated Cells' .... Thyroxine can't even get into the liver when FFAs are elevated.

I tried to look at the studies which show this FFA-mediated inhibition of Thyroxine entry into hepatocytes. All I found were either of unspecified FFA composition, or specifically Oleic Acid in one study.

To answer the question of whether Saturated FFAs would do this too, we have to speculate on some mechanics.

One of the things that I've been thinking about on and off for awhile is what exactly causes DHA to repel itself from cholesterol. See this study -- Polyunsaturated fatty acid–cholesterol interactions: Domain formation in membranes

That study basically shows how cholesterol and DHA strongly separate from each other. I speculate that this is allows DHA to "get cholesterol to where it needs to be".

The comparison between DHA (6 double bonds) and Oleic Acid (1 double don) clearly shows that it is the number of double bonds that exert this effect. This hints at a possibility for Saturated Fats showing no cholesterol aversion behaviour

NOTE: I do not buy the idea of bilayer permeability, but still, it does show significant repulsion between PUFAs and Cholesterol.

SIDENOTE: The last section right before the conclusion gives some speculation for how alpha-tocopherol (a form of Vitamin E) seems to have affinity for PUFAs, and may thus help to protect and isolate PUFA function on the cell membrane. I think this is plausible.​

Now, where this may have relevance for Thyroid hormone transport is due to the lipophilic nature of all the Thyroid hormones, and the composition of the membrane structures of the cells which thyroid needs to enter.

Could this simultaneous PUFA-attraction of Thyroid hormone + PUFA-repulsion of membrane lipid rafts lead to dysfunctional thyroid transport into the required cells?

In any case, that basically means that Thyroxine becomes increasing useless the more stressed out you are . This is where the Caffeine + various forms of Thyroid hormone combo is probably required to even begin to see positive effects from Thyroid hormones.

Now, how does Caffeine exactly help with this? Still no clue ... need to think about that and get back to this thread. For know, I will trust the empirical observations of Caffeine having an assistive effect.

And why the obsession with mechanics? Knowing how something works at a mechanical level gives us hints as to what other compounds may work too, and conversely, what other compounds could have a negative effect.​

.....

 

[DaveFoster]

@haidut

Thanks, haidut. Caffeine is giving me some unreal anxiety and dehydration at sub milligram dosages. Literally one drop of Red Bull from a pipette, so I'll try T3.

 

[BastiFuntasty]

I wonder if decaf coffee still offer this effect, because it seems more likely that due to the decaf process the beans lose many enzymes.

 

[haidut]

I wonder if decaf coffee still offer this effect, because it seems more likely that due to the decaf process the beans lose many enzymes.

Did you see the other comments in the thread? Yes, decaf also lowered cortisol and the study talks about it being a very water soluble chemical but they don't know what it is for now.

 

[Peater Piper]

If i am struggling from poor sleep, mainly due to family/life/work stresses, should I be drinking coffee still? Because I was reading something by Chris Kresser where he says that Coffee is great but for those who are really stressed with cortisol issues, it may be best to stop coffee until you get that sorted.

I'd go with how it makes you feel. If you're getting a stress response or crashing several hours later, then maybe you should lay off it a bit. If it makes you feel good, then keep drinking it. I've learned when I'm already feeling a bit stressed that coffee seems to make it worse, so I avoid it in those situations now, but your experience could be different.

 

[docall18]

Resumed taking caffeine for the past week or so, this time without the other supps namely niacinamide , thiamine, taurine, aspirin etc. And, contrary to my previous post, am experiencing great results.

The only supps I take with it are NDT, Zinc & P5P B6, all split up over the day. The P5P is great for any adrenaline.

@haidut

Thanks, haidut. Caffeine is giving me some unreal anxiety and dehydration at sub milligram dosages. Literally one drop of Red Bull from a pipette, so I'll try T3.

What happened from when you were taking huge doses of caffeine to being unable to take any?

 

[DaveFoster]

Resumed taking caffeine for the past week or so, this time without the other supps namely niacinamide , thiamine, taurine, aspirin etc. And, contrary to my previous post, am experiencing great results.

The only supps I take with it are NDT, Zinc & P5P B6, all split up over the day. The P5P is great for any adrenaline.




What happened from when you were taking huge doses of caffeine to being unable to take any?

Tolerance. Also, I haven't been eating enough. (I need around 6,000-8,000 calories to feel good.) I was eating around 3,000.

I might try coffee further down the road, but I have plenty of energy.

 

[Tarmander]

How long does the cortisol-lowering effect of coffee last?
Could that be a contributor to why I find it so hard to wake up and get moving in the morning after a little coffee the day/evening before?

Tara, have you tried really committing to coffee for an extended period of time? I know I was heavily depressed for the first week of coffee use and out of sorts for at least the first month of use.

 

[tara]

Tara, have you tried really committing to coffee for an extended period of time? I know I was heavily depressed for the first week of coffee use and out of sorts for at least the first month of use.

No, I never have. The apparent consequences of increasing it for few days (still low consumption by many people's standards) were intolerable - wasn't game to up it or prolong it, esp. since after a few days it started to taste really bad. Maybe when I'm stronger in other ways I'll be game to try again.

 

[Tarmander]

No, I never have. The apparent consequences of increasing it for few days (still low consumption by many people's standards) were intolerable - wasn't game to up it or prolong it, esp. since after a few days it started to taste really bad. Maybe when I'm stronger in other ways I'll be game to try again.

I hear ya. I had to be in a pretty great place before I took the dive and it still was a walk through hell. I think if you can put on a few pounds with milk fat right before taking the plunge it may make it more bareable.

 

[Kasper]

Tolerance. Also, I haven't been eating enough. (I need around 6,000-8,000 calories to feel good.) I was eating around 3,000.

I might try coffee further down the road, but I have plenty of energy.

Wow, how much sugar do you eat? How much each meal? Dont you get super high blood sugar?

 

[BastiFuntasty]

Did you see the other comments in the thread? Yes, decaf also lowered cortisol and the study talks about it being a very water soluble chemical but they don't know what it is for now.

Sorry I missed the little word really . I am still not sure if that applies to all decaf coffees. On the one hand they say it is very water soluble but the other hand it's not lost during

Did you see the other comments in the thread? Yes, decaf also lowered cortisol and the study talks about it being a very water soluble chemical but they don't know what it is for now.

Yeah you caught me on that, I ve been to lazy too read it completely

Somehow I have further concern, cause there are more processes available to decaf coffee. One very common procedure with organic variants is to use overcritical Co 2 for example.
Since it's such an poorly understood compound, anything is possible.

What are your experiences with decafs? Have you noticed benefits? I am currently trying it out myself, but couldn't say anything so far.