DHEA Provides Same Benefits Effects As Exercise By Increasing DHT

[REOSIRENS]

I am using 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone and results are good... Normally I take just low dose 5mg... With calcium carbonate and vitamin d 7 ketodhea is really good to give me this kind of masculine jaw... In terms of libido 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone only helps when taken with pregnenolone and vitamin d... My believe is that 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone is converted into dht because I don't feel estrogenic side effects and it helps fighting anxiety despair and depression but only if you take low dose with pregnenolone...
Like for example 1000ui vitamin d
Pregnenolone 15mg
And 2.5mg 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone

 

[haidut]

I am using 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone and results are good... Normally I take just low dose 5mg... With calcium carbonate and vitamin d 7 ketodhea is really good to give me this kind of masculine jaw... In terms of libido 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone only helps when taken with pregnenolone and vitamin d... My believe is that 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone is converted into dht because I don't feel estrogenic side effects and it helps fighting anxiety despair and depression but only if you take low dose with pregnenolone...
Like for example 1000ui vitamin d
Pregnenolone 15mg
And 2.5mg 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone

The 7-keto DHEA is NOT converted into DHT or any hormones with androgenic effects, at least as far as the available evidence is concerned. That was the primary motivation in releasing it on the market - i.e. get the metabolic effects of DHEA without the hormonal conversions. In fact, human studies show that it lowers DHT and T. But if it works for you, it's hard to argue with that.

 

[REOSIRENS]

You pulled the rug from under my feet haidut... So 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone is bad stuff that lowers T and DHT!? ... I seem to have some positive effects with it... I used once plain pure encapsulations dhea 5mg with pregnenolone and seems to be positive in some way but I started having some of estrogenic side effects(angry and high cortisol)....In case of 7-Ketodehydroepiandrosterone pregnenolone combo I feel better and only side effect was very high blood sugar levels(like cyproheptadine but without pronounced weight gain) that I tackled with vitamin d

 

[Wagner83]

Of course, a young person with high DHEA levels probably does not need supplementation to improve health. But in younger people the propensity for conversion into estrogen is also lower so it may actually have a stronger ergogenic effect.

Ok so you think topically, by converting into the tissues into dht it can improve performance without downregulating the enzyme 17,20-lyase locally? The downregulation of the enzyme 17,20-lyase was the kind of negative feedback I was expecting to happen. I thought since DHEA levels are already high trying to increase it through supplementation could quickly lead to the body adapting and reducing the endogenous production of Dhea .

 

[haidut]

Ok so you think topically, by converting into the tissues into dht it can improve performance without downregulating the enzyme 17,20-lyase locally? The downregulation of the enzyme 17,20-lyase was the kind of negative feedback I was expecting to happen. I thought since DHEA levels are already high trying to increase it through supplementation could quickly lead to the body adapting and reducing the endogenous production of Dhea .

I think the effects on 17,20-lyase will depend on how much DHEA reaches the blood unchanged. Oral use seems to boost DHEA levels more than topical. I would experiment with both routes and see which one gives effects without lowering endogenous DHEA levels. Because DHEA can suppress 17,20-lyase in higher doses, taking such a dose of DHEA can actually lower endogenous DHEA levels. There is a study on using 25mg and 50mg DHEA orally in humans and both doses lowered serum DHEA while also increasing DHEA-S. I think the lower dose DHEA has everything going for it - i.e. it has higher chance of turning into androgens and lower chance for estrogenic conversion, and it also does not inhibit 17,20-lyase to the point of causing drop in endogenous DHEA production. The recent clinical trials with 6.5mg topical DHEA in women seem to confirm that - i.e no change in estrogen levels combined with slight increase in both DHEA and DHEA-S.

 

[Wagner83]

Ok and do you think spreading the dhea on a larger area or different members could be more positive ? Wasn't there a different 5 ar activity depending on the skin location as well?
I remember one of your threads about DHEA in which you posted a study showing guys were given placebo, 50 mg or 200 mg oral DHEA and 200 mg actually increased ADG (if I remember right) the most and by far. I was a bit curious about this since I'd expect 200 mg DHEA to first stop most endogenous production of DHEA and at least lead to major estrogenic symptoms.
I guess the question is how much can each push himself with the DHEA without any negative effects, it seems to me that the less a deficiency the trickier, but of course if one is willing experimenting it sounds like a good way to find the sweet spot.

 

[haidut]

Ok and do you think spreading the dhea on a larger area or different members could be more positive ? Wasn't there a different 5 ar activity depending on the skin location as well?
I remember one of your threads about DHEA in which you posted a study showing guys were given placebo, 50 mg or 200 mg oral DHEA and 200 mg actually increased ADG (if I remember right) the most and by far. I was a bit curious about this since I'd expect 200 mg DHEA to first stop most endogenous production of DHEA and at least lead to major estrogenic symptoms.
I guess the question is how much can each push himself with the DHEA without any negative effects, it seems to me that the less a deficiency the trickier, but of course if one is willing experimenting it sounds like a good way to find the sweet spot.

Nobody knows the answer to how much DHEA can be (ab)used without serious hormonal side effects. I don't like the idea of pushing steroid use to the max anyways. The DHEA study raising ADG also found massive increases in estrogen as well. DHEA metabolizes to androstenedione, and androstenedion can go to estrone or T. But the aromatase enzyme has much higher preference for androstenedione compared to 17b-HSD3 so if enough DHEA is supplied it will feed mostly the estrogen pathway. Applying anywhere on the skin should be good enough. The minor difference in 5-AR expression will not matter much. It is 3a-HSD that varies a lot depending on skin area and 3a-HSD is needed for converting androsterone into DHT. So, applying androsterone on places like shoulders or scrotum matters as 3a-HSD is highest there.

 

[Wagner83]

Ok, thanks for the added tips on androsterone!

 

[DaveFoster]

Nobody knows the answer to how much DHEA can be (ab)used without serious hormonal side effects. I don't like the idea of pushing steroid use to the max anyways. The DHEA study raising ADG also found massive increases in estrogen as well. DHEA metabolizes to androstenedione, and androstenedion can go to estrone or T. But the aromatase enzyme has much higher preference for androstenedione compared to 17b-HSD3 so if enough DHEA is supplied it will feed mostly the estrogen pathway. Applying anywhere on the skin should be good enough. The minor difference in 5-AR expression will not matter much. It is 3a-HSD that varies a lot depending on skin area and 3a-HSD is needed for converting androsterone into DHT. So, applying androsterone on places like shoulders or scrotum matters as 3a-HSD is highest there.

Hey haidut, you posted elsewhere that the post-exercise rise in DHEA results antagonizes cortisol and results in the temporary mood benefits, and I find with adequate caffeine and glucose (sugar), one can easily become euphoric after a workout that lasts for the rest of the evening (and this is also with an appetite in most cases), but Pansterone produces a lesser degree of euphoria, but still a mood best, albeit a very similar effect with enhanced confidence, verbal fluidity and charm when conversing with females, feelings of power and goal-setting, and so forth.

Do you think using DHT (as 11-keto DHT)as an adjunct to Pansterone may more strongly replicate the effects of exercise in the context of say, non-physical labor (a desk job)?

Unlike exercise, I find working at a computer to trigger an elevation in heart rate (adrenaline), as per this study you posted: Noradrenaline (and Likely Adrenalin) Increases Estrogen

Further, going off of that study, the initial response to stress may provoke adrenaline (anxiety, restlessness), but with continued fatigue in the workplace (namely in front of a computer), feelings of malaise, desperation, and hopelessness prevail, which would align with a downregulation of 5-ar (and the ability of caffeine to combat such fatigue also comes to mind with its upregulation of 5-ar). An exercise session very powerfully pushes the "reset" button on the momentum of a downward spiraling mood, and even taking a walk as a break helps to restore an individual's tolerance to work.

 

[Wagner83]

Hey haidut, you posted elsewhere that the post-exercise rise in DHEA results antagonizes cortisol and results in the temporary mood benefits, and I find with adequate caffeine and glucose (sugar), one can easily become euphoric after a workout that lasts for the rest of the evening (and this is also with an appetite in most cases), but Pansterone produces a lesser degree of euphoria, but still a mood best, albeit a very similar effect with enhanced confidence, verbal fluidity and charm when conversing with females, feelings of power and goal-setting, and so forth.

Do you think using DHT (as 11-keto DHT)as an adjunct to Pansterone may more strongly replicate the effects of exercise in the context of say, non-physical labor (a desk job)?

Unlike exercise, I find working at a computer to trigger an elevation in heart rate (adrenaline), as per this study you posted: Noradrenaline (and Likely Adrenalin) Increases Estrogen

Further, going off of that study, the initial response to stress may provoke adrenaline (anxiety, restlessness), but with continued fatigue in the workplace (namely in front of a computer), feelings of malaise, desperation, and hopelessness prevail, which would align with a downregulation of 5-ar (and the ability of caffeine to combat such fatigue also comes to mind with its upregulation of 5-ar). An exercise session very powerfully pushes the "reset" button on the momentum of a downward spiraling mood, and even taking a walk as a break helps to restore an individual's tolerance to work.

1 drop of 11-keto-dht on its own every two-three days is excellent. I don't do it out of being cautious and not wanting to hide the issues my diet (still searching) and environment create. Also who knows how long it will be available.

 

[DaveFoster]

1 drop of 11-keto-dht on its own every two-three days is excellent. I don't do it out of being cautious and not wanting to hide the issues my diet (still searching) and environment create. Also who knows how long it will be available.

Thanks for the info, Wagner. I'm definitely looking to try 11-keto DHT, as I'm having great results with small amounts of T3 (and also Pansterone). Do you mainly have mood benefits, such as a feeling of well-being and relief from anxiety?

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks for the info, Wagner. I'm definitely looking to try 11-keto DHT, as I'm having great results with small amounts of T3 (and also Pansterone). Do you mainly have mood benefits, such as a feeling of well-being and relief from anxiety?

It feels like everything I need (mindset, behaviour, mood, care less about foods and still feel nice), by that I mean I don't need to add anything else like pansterone. Where do you use your T3 and how much?
Keep in mind I did not use the 11-keto long term, but I've seen other members report good effects mid term. To me it felt much better than androsterone (which can lead to mood issues after some time or feeling super lazy, not mentioning the smell etc..). Kuinone is my second favourite in terms of effects, two-three drops on schlong gave me great constant mood but I should probably not have used it daily for two weeks as the body may have adapted and I got pretty annyoing wrist pain. An other possibility is to combine Kuinone (I'd start with as little as 1 drop, controls aromatase etc..) and Pansterone if you want to stay in the safish zone , away from the strong androgens of the sea..

 

[DaveFoster]

It feels like everything I need (mindset, behaviour, mood, care less about foods and still feel nice), by that I mean I don't need to add anything else like pansterone. Where do you use your T3 and how much?
Keep in mind I did not use the 11-keto long term, but I've seen other members report good effects mid term. To me it felt much better than androsterone (which can lead to mood issues after some time or feeling super lazy, not mentioning the smell etc..). Kuinone is my second favourite in terms of effects, two-three drops on schlong gave me great constant mood but I should probably not have used it daily for two weeks as the body may have adapted and I got pretty annyoing wrist pain. An other possibility is to combine Kuinone (I'd start with as little as 1 drop, controls aromatase etc..) and Pansterone if you want to stay in the safish zone , away from the strong androgens of the sea..

I've noticed the absence of attachment to food with caffeine and T3 as well (I also take niacinamide to balance on the caffeine). I think there's an identical mechanism here (5-ar and promoting dopamine while lowering serotonin), so we get the gabergic effects of the androgens and the novelty-seeking of dopamine. There was a member who posted that caffeine took away his starch cravings in favor of sugar, and cortisol certainly promotes the latter.

I take 2-3 mcg (Blue Sky Peptide's T3) in a shot glass of water; I sip that when I start to ruminate and experience negative emotions (thinking about the past for example), or if my gut feels sensitive (beginning of GERD, acid reflux, etc). It seems to work well. I took just a couple sips too much a few nights ago, and my heart rate rose to 108, which wasn't very comfortable, so I took some propranolol to bring it down to 90, but I felt a bit depressed afterwards.

With coffee, I've been drinking around 12-16 standard weak cups, (about 600-800 mg caffeine or so) throughout the day with lots of sugar, milk, and sodium, which helps me get work done, but it promotes anxiety, hence why I take the niacinamide (500 mg or so every few hours, as applied topically in a dose of about 50 mg in ethanol), and I take thiamine (300 mg or so every few hours, as applied topically in a dose of about 30 mg in ethanol). The niacinamide restrains the stress response, and thiamine lowers ammonia, so it's a great synergism with caffeine. I also am taking 15 mg mirtazapine and 4 mg cyproheptadine before bed. Some periods I go absolutely free from anxiety, which is nice.

 

[Wagner83]

I've noticed the absence of attachment to food with caffeine and T3 as well (I also take niacinamide to balance on the caffeine). I think there's an identical mechanism here (5-ar and promoting dopamine while lowering serotonin), so we get the gabergic effects of the androgens and the novelty-seeking of dopamine. There was a member who posted that caffeine took away his starch cravings in favor of sugar, and cortisol certainly promotes the latter.

I take 2-3 mcg (Blue Sky Peptide's T3) in a shot glass of water; I sip that when I start to ruminate and experience negative emotions (thinking about the past for example), or if my gut feels sensitive (beginning of GERD, acid reflux, etc). It seems to work well. I took just a couple sips too much a few nights ago, and my heart rate rose to 108, which wasn't very comfortable, so I took some propranolol to bring it down to 90, but I felt a bit depressed afterwards.

With coffee, I've been drinking around 12-16 standard weak cups, (about 600-800 mg caffeine or so) throughout the day with lots of sugar, milk, and sodium, which helps me get work done, but it promotes anxiety, hence why I take the niacinamide (500 mg or so every few hours, as applied topically in a dose of about 50 mg in ethanol), and I take thiamine (300 mg or so every few hours, as applied topically in a dose of about 30 mg in ethanol). The niacinamide restrains the stress response, and thiamine lowers ammonia, so it's a great synergism with caffeine. I also am taking 15 mg mirtazapine and 4 mg cyproheptadine before bed. Some periods I go absolutely free from anxiety, which is nice.

Damn it sounds like you take a lot of substances and some of them are used to counteract the effects of others. Could your diet not work well enough for you or could the coffee consumption be too stressful? Atm I'm not drinking coffee, I sleep well (dinner seems to be really important for that), my diet seems to be working fine and I have positive interactions with quite a few people as well as plenty of sunlight and life is much easier on me, I don't expect it to be free of problems but overall things are good.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0083672918300505



Chapter Seven - The Role of Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in Skeletal Muscle
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0083672918300505#!
RedirectingGet rights and content

Abstract
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a precursor of sex steroid hormones and is converted to testosterone and estradiol. Normally, androgens and estrogens produced adrenal cortex, testis, and ovary; however, recent studies revealed androgens and estrogens are synthesized by peripheral tissues such as brain, skin, liver, kidney, bone, etc. We found skeletal muscles are also capable of synthesizing androgens and estrogens from DHEA. Circulating DHEA provides substrates required for conversion into potent androgens and estrogens in peripheral tissues.

Sex steroid hormone administration has important roles: one is that the enhancement of protein synthesis and anabolism, resulting in muscle growth and increased muscle strength. The other is improvement of hyperglycemia through the activation of glucose signaling pathway in skeletal muscle as well as acceleration of muscle lipid metabolism that increase peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPARα) and PPAR delta (PPARδ). We introduce the effect of DHEA and sex steroid hormones administration on muscle glucose and lipid metabolisms as well as the effect of sex steroid hormone on the muscle hypertrophy.

 

[johnwester130]

I have found an incredible way to take DHEA and prevent negative side effects

24ml Vitamin E liquid
6ml of Sugar Cane Food Grade Alcohol
About 1 gram of DHEA powder mixed in

It will achieve about 99.5% dissolution. Even 2 grams mixed nearly achieved 99% dissolution. To dissolve 3 grams you would need 20ml vitamin E, 10ml alcohol

More importantly it will dissolve into the vitamin E and the body will react to it much differently than powders, tablets or capsules due to the chylomicrons

 

[Mossy]

I have found an incredible way to take DHEA and prevent negative side effects

24ml Vitamin E liquid
6ml of Sugar Cane Food Grade Alcohol
About 1 gram of DHEA powder mixed in

It will achieve about 99.5% dissolution. Even 2 grams mixed nearly achieved 99% dissolution. To dissolve 3 grams you would need 20ml vitamin E, 10ml alcohol

More importantly it will dissolve into the vitamin E and the body will react to it much differently than powders, tablets or capsules due to the chylomicrons

Interesting. How potent is that vitamin e liquid—how much vitamin e are you getting? That’s a lot of liquid to absorb topically, or even internally, for a single dose. Also, do you feel the sugar cane alcohol is better than other types?

 

[Coderr]

I have found an incredible way to take DHEA and prevent negative side effects

24ml Vitamin E liquid
6ml of Sugar Cane Food Grade Alcohol
About 1 gram of DHEA powder mixed in

It will achieve about 99.5% dissolution. Even 2 grams mixed nearly achieved 99% dissolution. To dissolve 3 grams you would need 20ml vitamin E, 10ml alcohol

More importantly it will dissolve into the vitamin E and the body will react to it much differently than powders, tablets or capsules due to the chylomicrons

how many drops do you put on?

 

[johnwester130]

Interesting. How potent is that vitamin e liquid—how much vitamin e are you getting? That’s a lot of liquid to absorb topically, or even internally, for a single dose. Also, do you feel the sugar cane alcohol is better than other types?

well, the 30ml bottle is approximately 1000 drops.

so 24ml of vitamin e is 2400iu
2400 divided by 1000 gives me 2.4iu per drop

I don't understand your statement "that's a lot of liquid to absorb topically".
30ml gives you approximately 1000 drops.
1 gram of DHEA makes it 1mg per drop, on average. I use 2 drops.

So 2 drops gives me 2mg DHEA,
5 IU of vitamin E,
0.001ml of Ethanol.

as for the alcohol, you can do everclear or 95% vodka. I just preferred food grade ethanol, it felt purer

 

[johnwester130]

how many drops do you put on?

well I would do about 4 drops, giving me approximately 4 mg of DHEA and 10iu of vitamin E