Does Anyone Have References that Validate the Use of Urine pH as a Proxy for Blood/ECF pH?

[Amazoniac]

Thanks, especially for the last link.

I've sensed that when i increase my intake of potassium, I see less foaming as well as less of the stinky smell.

It made me realize the importance of increased potassium intake, especially with foods.

As for sodium, I may have to bite the bullet and try doing one month of of daily intake of 10g of salt (sodium chloride) on top of what I get from food.

Assuming all of that is retained, I get 300g of salt, and with water taking up 60 percent of my 70kg body weight, that would be 42kg. That would be 300/42000 = 0.7 percent of salt. Of course, that isn't a good assumption so I should be safe.

Yes, it's an excellent website and its author is grass-fed.

You know that hydrogen ion concentration has to be kept within a range or else tissues are fried, buffers are called into action when needed.

- Chronic metabolic acid load induced by changes in dietary electrolyte balance increased chloride retention but did not compromise bone in growing swine

"In humans, approximately 60% of dietary acid load is thought to be compensated by renal ammonium ion excretion and the remainder by renal phosphate excretion (Pitts, 1964)."​

I've read conflicting information on which one (between ammonia and phosphate) is the main buffer under normal conditions, but the formation of ammonia in kidneys appears to gain importance when acidosis intensifies.

In ionized forms, phosphate is negatively charged, whereas ammonia is positively (check out their Figure 1). So, when ammonia excretion is increased, it won't tax potassium or sodium for also being cations. This is advantageous because it can pick up the hydrogen ions and excrete chloride or some other anion that's in excess (and's able of being removed through urine) along without depleting cations.

If phosphate was to increase, the cations would have to follow. To be fair, if urine started to become acidic and the phosphate concentration didn't change, it would begin associating with hydrogen ions and decrease the interacting sites available to find neutrality with cations.

- Phosphate - Wikipedia

So, we has varying degrees of protonation. Phosphoric acid (H3PO4) and phosphate (PO4(3−)) aren't relevant because the pH where they occur is extreme, maybe stomach for phosphoric acid. Therefore, in urine we'll be dealing with an exchange between dihydrogen and hydrogen phosphates, and cations in place of the missing hydrogens; there may be salts such as NaH2PO4 (monosodium dihydrogen phosphate, or sodium phosphate monobasic due to the free spot), K2HPO4 (dipotassium hydrogen phosphate, or potassium phosphate dibasic).

- Sodium phosphate monobasic and dibasic | ChemIDplus

I think that Gerson used to employ potassium as monobasic phosphate (KH2PO4), he must have been shooting for intracellular ion repletion. I can't remember the justification to include gluconate and the reason to avoid magnesium.
- Distribution of cations in body fluid compartments | Deranged Physiology
- Distribution of anions in body fluid compartments | Deranged Physiology

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- Urine - Wikipedia

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- The Janus faces of bicarbonate therapy in the ICU
- The Janus faces of bicarbonate therapy in the ICU: not sure!
- The Janus faces of bicarbonate therapy in the ICU: con

"Given that an average person exhales about 900 g of CO2 per day (corresponding to about 850 mmol/h), any administered bicarbonate is rapidly exhaled as CO2.​

​

How then does sodium bicarbonate result in a change in bicarbonate concentration when the bicarbonate is rapidly converted to CO2 and excreted by the lungs? The answer is that it is not bicarbonate but Na+ (or more often lack of Cl−) that matters. This is because the total concentration of strong cations (Na+, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+) exceeds the total concentration of strong anions (Cl−, Lactate−) in blood plasma (Fig. 1). To preserve electro-neutrality, the strong ion difference (SID) is balanced by weak acids (predominantly bicarbonate, albumin and phosphate) [5]. Normal SID is approximately 40 mEq/L. In the open system, rather than bicarbonate dictating pH, both are determined by a combination of SID, pCO2 and total concentration of non-volatile weak acids. Any decrease in SID decreases pH and an increase in SID increases pH."​

The effect of the remaining cation seems to be more concerning. The same principle of ion balance might be pictured inside the cell, but with potassium instead of sodium.

How craponate salts affect you?

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Given that you reacted poorly to magnesium chloride in the past, now suspect that hydrogen craponate isn't being good, and benefited from cysteine supplementation (?), I wonder how you respond to sulfate ingestion. If there's lack of cysteine, there may be shortage of sulfate as well. Even though it's a minor anion in circulation, increasing those two could be shrinking its pool further. I don't know if this can happen, but it's a possibility.

Hydrogen craponate is too long of a term, I may start referring to it as acid craponate or hydrocraponate.

 

[yerrag]

I wonder how you respond to sulfate ingestion.

I took a lot of garlic once, and it got as bad as taking plenty of magnesium chloride. The acid load of each was just as bad. Garlic has a lot of sulfur compounds, among which is sulfate. Taking just enough is fine. Too much and it's overload. Just like Paracelsius would say "The dose makes the poison."

Producing a lot of ammonium as a cation, I think, is good only because it is the body's way of compensating for a deficiency. A stress response, if you will. What is stressed? The kidneys and the liver. As they have to go out of their way to make ammonia from glutamate, which means they have to break down proteins for that. It is just like breaking down protein to make glucose when the body is low on glucose.

The deficiency here is potassium. If potassium were available, it would just be used to pair with the acidic anions such as chloride, or sulfate, or phosphate, or lactate, or oxalate, or citrate - whatever is in excess that needs tp be gotten rid of. If potassium were not available, then ammonia would be used, and the hydrogen ion would attach to ammonia to form ammonium to act as the cation.

I am not sure about this but when I was learning Buteyko, the instructor would get flummoxed when I told him that my blood pressure would jump after each session I did. He asked his Buteyko colleagues around the world and they couldn't figure out why. I finally have a hypothesis for that, after years of scratching my head. The Buteyko practice would increase carbonic acid levels, and increase ecf acidity. I suppose it would be natural to think that the lungs would have exhaled that acidity, as that is what hyperventilation through the lungs would do, but I guess the practice of Buteyko (that's why learning Buteyko has to be supervised to keep it safe I guess) increases the acidity just enough to not cause hyperventilation from being triggered, and so it would allow the kidneys to adjust acid-base balance instead of having the lungs do it. If the lungs were to do the job, it would defeat the purpose of practicing Buteyko - as all the CO2 retained would simply be let off by hyperventilation.

But back to my blood pressure going down and why that happened. So, with the kidneys having to lower the increased acidity brought about by increased carbonic acid, it has to make ammonia. That means more work for the kidneys. It must mean more blood flowing to the kidneys as well to get more raw material, glutamate, or if it already can make glutamate from its own protein stores, it still needs oxygen to get the work done. Given that I have high bp already, which is kidney-related, added work on the kidneys may stress my kidneys more. So, having to produce ammonia would not be a good idea if the kidney had the choice of using potassium as the cation. Which is why I don't think producing the ammonia is without a cost. It is better to have enough potassium around to be used for acid excretion than having to produce the ammonia by catabolism.

I would be able to confirm this logic by taking more potassium rich foods such as coconut water, or bananas, or apple cider vinegar (2 tsp to a glass as a juice). I would see less foaming when I urinate (as ammonia produces foam; this is what I observe from having a koi pond; koi excrete ammonia and when a pond's biological filter doesn't convert the ammonia into nitrates or into atmospheric N2 sufficiently, a lot of foam occurs around the waterfall area) and my urine would not stink so much. I also would get added confirmation when i experience a tendency to have leg cramps when I am low in potassium; it happens also when my urine foams and stinks.

Not that I know everything there is to it about urination. Last night I again woke up every 2 hours to pee, just when I thought I had solved that problem. I peed 3 liters yesterday, a liter above normal. My kidneys seem to be working overtime to correct some internal acid-creating condition. And my blood pressure is not going down.

Yet, my kidneys are doing a fine job and not complaining (well, except for the high bp). My urine and saliva pH tests tell me I am doing fine.

Arrrggh, why does it have to produce so much urine?

 

[Jennifer]

I know the feeling. But if, after being persistent with my primary doctor to allow me to take a 5hr oral glucose tolerance test, and being told that I have normal blood sugar, and not knowing any better and accepted it, I would be as sick as a puppy as i was then. I would not have self-diagnosed the results as a case of hypoglycemia, and would not have fixed it. I would still be struggling with once yearly flu, I would also be unable to run long distances without tiring out so easily at a short distance, and I would have become diabetic and obese, and I would be on the gym everyday on the treadmill because i'm told it is normal.

Nicely done, yerrag! That’s wonderful!

But each person trying to heal himself of herself would see his or her persistence as a virtue called determination while others around would see that as a defect of being stubborn.

For sure! Though, I’ll admit that I can be stubborn, too. It’s not something I’m quick to rid myself of completely, though, as I have good reason to believe it increases longevity.

Some day I'll get back to helping her, or trying to. But now, I have to focus on my own, as that already takes a lot of work - research, experimenting, making mistakes and being on that wrong path for years even, to find out I was making a long detour. But as I learn from it, and when I have a good handle of my own ability to solve my own issues, I would be able to help her with not just a better approach and toolbox, but with a better temperament as well.

Besides, I had spent time caring for my parents, and now it's time to focus first on me.

I understand. I’ve been learning that we have to put the mask on ourselves first if we’re ever going to be able to truly help others.

Thanks. I'm glad you were able to lower your mom's bp to normal without prescription drugs. That is a very difficult thing to do. Most people, and I include people in this forum, would just resort to prescription drugs. As for your case where the bp is low and your job is to increase it, it is a different matter altogether. With the blood sugar history and spine history, it seems that a lot more work is involved getting you to get to a balanced state. At the same time, you learn a lot and become a good resource.

Unfortunately, my mum has been sick her whole life and has just as much work involved in getting balanced, but she’s putting in a lot of effort and doing a great job. I’m proud of her. My dad, too. They’re both putting in the effort to heal.

So I'm circling back the wagon and getting back to basics.

That sounds like an excellent plan. It certainly has worked well for me—for my body and wallet. :)

So now, I've begun to view fruit and vegetable juicing differently. We never had juicers in early time. Now that we have them, they should just be used as therapy, not as a lifestyle. But that isn't the case. We're just oranges, pineapple, carrots and drinking them everyday. Can't we be overloading on citric acid or ascorbic acid, or citric acid, or oxalic acid? What are the effects? Well, could it be that the ascorbic acid could interfere with oxidative processes like phagocytosis and the antioxidant is interfering with the respiratory burst of phagocytosis? Could the citric acid be binding to calcium and causing a lot of calcium to be excreted? Could the oxalic acid in carrots be causing calcium oxalate kidney stones because the excess would lead to such effects? But it's really okay if someone has an issue - cancer, bacterial, etc - that needs some therapeutic intervention and these juicing therapies can be availed of? But just because you can do it does not mean that you should do it.

I can’t really say much about juice and getting too much of certain compounds because I prefer to get my veggies through milk and I consume the same amount of fruit juiced as I did whole while following a fruitarian diet, the only difference is my intestines and head are much happier now. lol

But look a the coconut. In young of mature form, the juice, or what we call coconut water, is potassium rich but it doesn't come with the salt that can be harmful in excess. It comes with malic acid, which isn't so bad in the quantity it's in, and it's perfectly okay to drink the juice of one coconut. And bananas are safe eaten one after each meal.

Well, they definitely taste a lot better than p. bicarb and p. citrate (at least to me) and I believe that’s important.

 

[yerrag]

I can’t really say much about juice and getting too much of certain compounds because I prefer to get my veggies through milk

What do you mean by getting your veggies through milk? Do you mean getting calcium from milk and not from cooked green leaves?

and I consume the same amount of fruit juiced as I did whole while following a fruitarian diet, the only difference is my intestines and head are much happier now. lol

I get what you mean.

But I was thinking that if say it's normally hard to eat a ton of bananas, it's because maybe we were meant to eat just one after each meal. We wouldn't be juicing bananas only because it's not juiceable. So that keeps us on just 3 bananas a day.

But we could just drink apples because it's possible with a juicer. But without an invention called a juicer and modern production methods making juicers affordable to any home, we would still be normally eating apples and perhaps not eating as much to equal drinking glasses of apple juice a day.

Assuming I had no juicer, I could still drink a liter of coconut water a day, but I would find it much harder to eat the equivalent of 1 liter of orange juice a day.

So, if I went by the practical limitations imposed on me by nature, I would not be overloading on say ascorbic acid with oj, citric acid with pineapples, and oxalic acid with carrots every day as a lifestyle, although I could find it helpful and therapeutic to do these things once in a while for healing- when I need the boost of vitamin C or citric acid or oxalic acid, in accordance to what ails me.

Anyway, I could be wrong thinking like this. I'm just trying to figure out a rational way to have intakes of minerals, especially electrolytes into my body with the maxiumum of benefit and with the minimum of unintended consequences of side effects. It gets frustrating when I am not getting better, despite great efforts at a lifestyle intended to better my health.

 

[Jennifer]

@yerrag, yep, getting calcium and all the other nutrients veggies contain by letting the goats and cows process them for me.

I can’t really relate in that regard because for years I craved (still do) and ate large volumes of fruit, such as entire watermelons, in one sitting so I absolutely would consume that much fruit juiced, and there are days I consume more than 2 liters of coconut water or fruit juice, it just depends on what’s available for ripe fruit and what I’m craving.

I personally don’t think concentrating nutrients via juicing is any less natural than processing veggies, meat etc. into concentrated nutrients via cooking. I do believe there are problematic compounds (more so for veggies, especially raw, and unripe fruit), even ones that are problematic for some people but not others, however, my body never fails to let me know, especially my taste buds, stomach and head. For me, juicing most of my fruit spares my body the cascade of unwanted symptoms that the fiber causes such as cramping, bloating, brain fog, migraines, and dropping my cholesterol so low that there isn’t enough building blocks for hormone production.

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag, yep, getting calcium and all the other nutrients veggies contain by letting the goats and cows process them for me.

I can’t really relate in that regard because for years I craved (still do) and ate large volumes of fruit, such as entire watermelons, in one sitting so I absolutely would consume that much fruit juiced, and there are days I consume more than 2 liters of coconut water or fruit juice, it just depends on what’s available for ripe fruit and what I’m craving.

I personally don’t think concentrating nutrients via juicing is any less natural than processing veggies, meat etc. into concentrated nutrients via cooking. I do believe there are problematic compounds (more so for veggies, especially raw, and unripe fruit), even ones that are problematic for some people but not others, however, my body never fails to let me know, especially my taste buds, stomach and head. For me, juicing most of my fruit spares my body the cascade of unwanted symptoms that the fiber causes such as cramping, bloating, brain fog, migraines, and dropping my cholesterol so low that there isn’t enough building blocks for hormone production.

I know that it has become a lifestyle for you that works. I think that you have tweaked it enough to have the feel of it being optimal. And you would be more likely to know better what works for you.

But I can't help but say that at best we're approximating and we still rely on our gut feel and we are relying on our own internal rule of thumbs. And while that is better than relying on things that don't get us remotely close enough to perfect, much less stray away from it - such as seeing doctors and having them interpret expensively obtained lab values wrongly - there are still refinements that could still be overlooked.

I'm going to buy me another tool, a conductivity meter, and measure the micromhos of my urine. I urinate too much, and I think I need to tweak somehow the mix of cations and anions entering my system from foods and drinks, rather than tweak my metabolism. I wonder if you have some familiarity with conductivity values and whether you've played around with them. Do you think it's helpful to tweak them? I can get my urine pH now with a Hydrion pH test strip, and as far as acid-base balance goes, they're giving me good values, but haven't yet measured and tweaked the rH values, the micromhos.

Here is the conductivity meter I'm talking about:

Amazon product ASIN B072VH3WNL

 

[Amazoniac]

I took a lot of garlic once, and it got as bad as taking plenty of magnesium chloride. The acid load of each was just as bad. Garlic has a lot of sulfur compounds, among which is sulfate. Taking just enough is fine. Too much and it's overload. Just like Paracelsius would say "The dose makes the poison."

Producing a lot of ammonium as a cation, I think, is good only because it is the body's way of compensating for a deficiency. A stress response, if you will. What is stressed? The kidneys and the liver. As they have to go out of their way to make ammonia from glutamate, which means they have to break down proteins for that. It is just like breaking down protein to make glucose when the body is low on glucose.

The deficiency here is potassium. If potassium were available, it would just be used to pair with the acidic anions such as chloride, or sulfate, or phosphate, or lactate, or oxalate, or citrate - whatever is in excess that needs tp be gotten rid of. If potassium were not available, then ammonia would be used, and the hydrogen ion would attach to ammonia to form ammonium to act as the cation.

I am not sure about this but when I was learning Buteyko, the instructor would get flummoxed when I told him that my blood pressure would jump after each session I did. He asked his Buteyko colleagues around the world and they couldn't figure out why. I finally have a hypothesis for that, after years of scratching my head. The Buteyko practice would increase carbonic acid levels, and increase ecf acidity. I suppose it would be natural to think that the lungs would have exhaled that acidity, as that is what hyperventilation through the lungs would do, but I guess the practice of Buteyko (that's why learning Buteyko has to be supervised to keep it safe I guess) increases the acidity just enough to not cause hyperventilation from being triggered, and so it would allow the kidneys to adjust acid-base balance instead of having the lungs do it. If the lungs were to do the job, it would defeat the purpose of practicing Buteyko - as all the CO2 retained would simply be let off by hyperventilation.

But back to my blood pressure going down and why that happened. So, with the kidneys having to lower the increased acidity brought about by increased carbonic acid, it has to make ammonia. That means more work for the kidneys. It must mean more blood flowing to the kidneys as well to get more raw material, glutamate, or if it already can make glutamate from its own protein stores, it still needs oxygen to get the work done. Given that I have high bp already, which is kidney-related, added work on the kidneys may stress my kidneys more. So, having to produce ammonia would not be a good idea if the kidney had the choice of using potassium as the cation. Which is why I don't think producing the ammonia is without a cost. It is better to have enough potassium around to be used for acid excretion than having to produce the ammonia by catabolism.

I would be able to confirm this logic by taking more potassium rich foods such as coconut water, or bananas, or apple cider vinegar (2 tsp to a glass as a juice). I would see less foaming when I urinate (as ammonia produces foam; this is what I observe from having a koi pond; koi excrete ammonia and when a pond's biological filter doesn't convert the ammonia into nitrates or into atmospheric N2 sufficiently, a lot of foam occurs around the waterfall area) and my urine would not stink so much. I also would get added confirmation when i experience a tendency to have leg cramps when I am low in potassium; it happens also when my urine foams and stinks.

Not that I know everything there is to it about urination. Last night I again woke up every 2 hours to pee, just when I thought I had solved that problem. I peed 3 liters a day, a liter above normal. My kidneys seem to be working overtime to correct some internal acid-creating condition. And my blood pressure is not going down.

Yet, my kidneys are doing a fine job and not complaining. My urine and saliva tests tell me I am doing fine. Arrrggh

Come on, yerrag! The sulfur in those plants tends to occur in molecules used for defensive purposes, we can't expect mild reactions. If I'm not wrong, sulfate is only responsible for a tiny fraction of the sulfur present. The weight of a clove and its water content would suffice to hint that an exaggerated quantity must not be the explanation.
- Organosulfur compounds and possible mechanism of garlic in cancer

Since you've benefited from cysteine and taurine in the past, why not sulfate? I know that an acidying effect concerns you, but it's safer in this regard than cysteine for skipping the steps in metabolism that are claimed to release hydrogen ions; you're only left with the potential issue of excess anion displacing hydrocraponate, but like you mentioned, it's a matter of dose. Small amounts are enough, those that are easily obtainable through minerals waters rich in it.

Do you get adequate zinc on a regular basis? Frequent disturbances in craponate species could tax it.

Potassium and sodium might work through prevention or creating room for buffers, but they aren't buffers themselves and can't do much about the acid load that's being cleared by the kidneys (between meals when nutrients are already assimilated), although sodium may attract water and be diluting. I think that there are limitations for the increase in phosphate and it wouldn't make sense to waste hydrocraponate.

 

[yerrag]

Come on, yerrag! The sulfur in those plants tends to occur in molecules used for defensive purposes, we can't expect mild reactions. If I'm not wrong, sulfate is only responsible for a tiny fraction of the sulfur present. The weight of a clove and its water content would suffice to hint that an exaggerated quantity must not be the explanation.
- Organosulfur compounds and possible mechanism of garlic in cancer

Try it yourself and get back to me - Take 12 cloves of garlic a day and let me know you feel 2-3 weeks later.

Since you've benefited from cysteine and taurine in the past, why not sulfate? I know that an acidying effect concerns you, but it's safer in this regard than cysteine for skipping the steps in metabolism that are claimed to release hydrogen ions; you're only left with the potential issue of excess anion displacing hydrocraponate

Are you talking about cysteine from eating meat? Are you implying that because I eat sulfur-containing amino acids and that because it contains strong acids, I should be taking all acids? In a "resistance is futile" kind of way? I'm having a hard time here reading your mind. Help me here.

And how does taurine come into play here- is taurine an anion that is very acidic? It's pka is 9, and that hardly counts as being very acidic.

Do you get adequate zinc on a regular basis? Frequent disturbances in craponate species could tax it.

Ah yes, I get it from ginger and from eating beef liver and oysters.

Potassium and sodium might work through prevention or creating room for buffers, but they aren't buffers themselves and can't do much about the acid load that's being cleared by the kidneys (between meals when nutrients are already assimilated), although sodium may attract water and be diluting. I think that there are limitations for the increase in phosphate and it wouldn't make sense to waste hydrocraponate.

I'm having to try to interpret your meaning again here. Sorry, I can't understand your English. Please rephrase.

Are you saying potassium intake doesn't solve the problem of acidity and that I need to take bicarbonates?

 

[Amazoniac]

Try it yourself and get back to me - Take 12 cloves of garlic a day and let me know you feel 2-3 weeks later.

Have you read my message? You can stuff yourself with a bunch of them and not obtain sulfate in excess.

Are you talking about cysteine from eating meat? Are you implying that because I eat sulfur-containing amino acids and that because it contains strong acids, I should be taking all acids? In a "resistance is futile" kind of way? I'm having a hard time here reading your mind. Help me here.

And how does taurine come into play here- is taurine an anion that is very acidic? It's pka is 9, and that hardly counts as being very acidic.

I remember you were once taking acetylcysteine, for you to keep it for a while I presume that you noticed some benefits. Since different sulfur compounds appeared to be insufficient (taurine entering here), sulfate might be one more. If you were willing to try cysteine, why not sulfate?

Ah yes, I get it from ginger and from eating beef liver and oysters.

I'm having to try to interpret your meaning again here. Sorry, I can't understand your English. Please rephrase.

Are you saying potassium intake doesn't solve the problem of acidity and that I need to take bicarbonates?

No, I'm not encouraging you to insist on hydrocraponates if they're not working, but their excess is relatively easy to dispose.
I'm not aware of potassium being able to do anything about the acidic load already being concentrated in urine. Like I mentioned, there are limitations for phosphate to increase, so potassium can't open a lot of space for phosphate to rise along and hydrocraponate has to be recovered rather than eliminated.

 

[yerrag]

Have you read my message? You can stuff yourself with a bunch of them and not obtain sulfate in excess.

That's what I told you taking a lot of garlic for a good 2-3 weeks. It made my urine very acidic and I felt bad. I was sneezing and having allergic rhinitis. It really lowered my immunity.

I remember you were once taking acetylcysteine, for you to keep it for a while I presume that you noticed some benefits. Since different sulfur compounds appeared to be insufficient (taurine entering here), sulfate might be one more. If you were willing to try cysteine, why not sulfate?

I took the copper acetylsalicylate to see if I could get better effects from copper acetate. It was mainly for the combined effect of being antibacterial from copper and of being anti-inflammatory from the acetate. I thought that it was effective from that standpoint, but I wasn't paying attention to my urination then. Sulfate is very acidic, as compared to acetylsalicylate and taurine, and that was what I experienced from taking a shitload of garlic. Even if you were to say garlic is safe, my experience tells me in large quantities on a daily basis - not a good idea. But just as taking magnesium chloride is an acidic load, which I experienced also for the same effects too much garlic did to me, I would not want to take anything with sulfates in large amounts daily. Sulfuric acid is a very strong acid. it's not a good idea.

But then again I wouldn't wrap everything with sulfate as bad. Just like I would not say everything would chloride anions as bad. With magnesium as magnesium chloride- bad - because it is an acidic load on the body - as shown in the Remer article you shared. But also in the same article, it's shown that taking NaCl, as well as KCl, isn't because the acidic load is minimal.

Can you suggest something with sulfates that isn't going to be a significant acidic load that can be taken daily?

No, I'm not encouraging you to insist on hydrocraponates if they're not working, but their excess is relatively easy to dispose.

I was taking bicarbonate in the form of magnesium bicarbonate at 400 mg magnesium daily. When I did get around to compute how much bicarbonate I was getting, I realized I was taking a lot. I can't recall in exact weight, but the bicarbonate intake was equivalent to more than 3 grams of baking soda. So in that kind of excess, it was more likely the body would have to do cartwheels to deal with it

'm not aware of potassium being able to do anything about the acidic load already being concentrated in urine. Like I mentioned, there are limitations for phosphate to increase, so potassium can't open a lot of space for phosphate to rise along and hydrocraponate has to be recovered rather than eliminated.

The potassium takes the place of ammonium, so that the kidneys do not have to make ammonia, and spares the kidneys some work. And hydrogen ion has to be attached to ammonia to make it a cation, because hydrogen paired with say Cl makes HCl which is too acidic for the kidneys and bladders to handle as the HCl would fry them. But KCl or NH4Cl isn't that acidic, and they can be excreted as urine.

But the problem with potassium being used for excretion of acids is that it robs the cell of potassium, which acts as a regulator of calcium influx into the cell, to help keep cells from being calcified.

To keep this from happening, potassium intake is a must. But what form of potassium salt do we need and which fruits or veggies have them? That is another question.

 

[Jennifer]

I know that it has become a lifestyle for you that works. I think that you have tweaked it enough to have the feel of it being optimal. And you would be more likely to know better what works for you.

But I can't help but say that at best we're approximating and we still rely on our gut feel and we are relying on our own internal rule of thumbs. And while that is better than relying on things that don't get us remotely close enough to perfect, much less stray away from it - such as seeing doctors and having them interpret expensively obtained lab values wrongly - there are still refinements that could still be overlooked.

I'm going to buy me another tool, a conductivity meter, and measure the micromhos of my urine. I urinate too much, and I think I need to tweak somehow the mix of cations and anions entering my system from foods and drinks, rather than tweak my metabolism. I wonder if you have some familiarity with conductivity values and whether you've played around with them. Do you think it's helpful to tweak them? I can get my urine pH now with a Hydrion pH test strip, and as far as acid-base balance goes, they're giving me good values, but haven't yet measured and tweaked the rH values, the micromhos.

Here is the conductivity meter I'm talking about:

Amazon product ASIN B072VH3WNL

What types of juices do you consume? Any greens? Reams found that chlorophyll was powerful at lowering blood sugar.

Sorry, when you say we’re approximating, who’s we? If you’re including me, I don’t just rely on feel, but other health markers such as BP, pulse, temps and routine blood work—I use many sources to interpret it and not one of those sources is my GP.

Yep, I’m familiar with conductivity values but only from an RBTI perspective. It has been about 10 years, but I recall healthy urine conductivity being between 4200 and 4900 microsiemens. I’d have to get my notes out of storage to confirm that but again, that’s with RBTI. Even the pH values of foods used were specific to Carey Reams own testing, and my practitioner (was Carey Reams’ nurse at his retreats and a biochemist) only accepted readings measured via reagents, a specific pH color chart and certain brands of meters because she said they were the most accurate. That meter you linked would work or even the DiST6 by Hanna Instruments:

DiST6WP Tester - Pike Agri-Lab Supplies

DiST6WP (HI 98311) EC/TDS/Temperature Tester. Pocket sized tester for high EC Soils and also for evaluating animal diets (RBTI).

pikeagri.com

 

[yerrag]

What types of juices do you consume? Any greens? Reams found that chlorophyll was powerful at lowering blood sugar.

When I was juicing regularly, fruit juices were pineapple, a local orange that would be more sour, cantaloupe, watermelon. Now, I'm just juicing carrots for a short-term therapy for its oxalic acid. When I was juicing veggies, I only had one combo: pineapple, green bell pepper, cucumber, bitter gourd, celery, and beet roots.

But I don't juice anymore except for the current carrot juicing. I would regularly eat bananas, mangoes, cantaloupes, pineapples, oranges, cherimoya, and sapota (called chico in the Philippines), and I eat them as fruits normally would be eaten, and it depends on the season (I get what's the cheapest)and i's locally harvested. So no apples and grapes for me, but would be nice to have them if I were in the US as organically grown fruits.

I only eat cooked greens for veggies now, although lately in my need for oxalic acid for therapy, I would add nightshades such as eggplants and tomatoes.

I'm testing out oxalic acid as a therapy and during this time, I don't drink milk nor eat cheese or anything that's high in calcium except or the cooked greens. Been at it for 2 weeks and seems to lower my blood pressure, but it comes and goes. But it seems like it does lower my bp shortly after I drink 12 ounces of it, but as the day ends the bp goes up agaiin. So, I may try splitting into 2 6-ounce portions and take it morning and evening.

Sorry, when you say we’re approximating, who’s we? If you’re including me, I don’t just rely on feel, but other health markers such as BP, pulse, temps and routine blood work—I use many sources to interpret it and not one of those sources is my GP.

Sorry, I say that just to be polite.

But I also do what you do, and I still consider what I'm doing approximating. And like you, I don't rely on a conventional doctor. I still consider mine an approximation even though I consider it much better than relying of doctors, but there are still huge gaps in what I know, and in what measuring instruments I have available, and to say that I approximate is already an exaggeration.

Yep, I’m familiar with conductivity values but only from an RBTI perspective. It has been about 10 years, but I recall healthy urine conductivity being between 4200 and 4900 microsiemens. I’d have to get my notes out of storage to confirm that but again, that’s with RBTI. Even the pH values of foods used were specific to Carey Reams own testing, and my practitioner (was Carey Reams’ nurse at his retreats and a biochemist) only accepted readings measured via reagents, a specific pH color chart and certain brands of meters because she said they were the most accurate. That meter you linked would work or even the DiST6 by Hanna Instruments:

Thanks for sharing the one by Hanna.

I have a nice HM Digital ORP meter that looks just like that one and it's a pain to calibrate, and it uses a lot of solution to calibrate, and a lot of money is needed to replenish the calibration solution. The Hanna also seems to be like that. The Horiba unit is more expensive, but it takes small samples to calibrate and to measure. I still would end up spending for a calibration solution, but I think the higher price is worth the convenience.

The reason I use a pH test strip (from Hydrion) is that it is very convenient and I don't have to calibrate. And it isn't expensive at all. That's why I ditched my pH meter.

Since you're familiar with conductivity and its use as a marker for health, I wanted to ask your opinion about this statement:

In a perfect world with the right concentration of electrolytes which is in perfect balance for the blood, the blood will have a specific conductance (SC) reading of 12,000 micromhos. Specific conductance for blood or urine is a measure of the conductivity level (how well the fluid conducts electricity) and is measured with conductivity meters. The reciprocal of conductivity which is resistivity is also often used. The kidneys job is to make sure blood stays at the 12,000 micromho level. If the right proportion of dietary electrolytes were being consumed along with adequate water intake, the urine SC would reflect this 12,000 level. This would tell you the kidneys are cruising at a 1 to 1 concentration factor and they are not doing one bit more work than they need to do. Now if an individual starts to lessen water intake, drinks water too high in mineral concentration, consumes too many of the items listed above, then the kidney is going to have to increase concentration levels and the urine will reflect this in a higher SC. A SC reading of 24,000 micromhos reflects a doubling of effort by the kidneys. A 36,000 SC is a triple work load. As you can see, this leads to kidney stress.

The Story of Zeta Potential 3

More Pictures of Blood (sort of) Back in the late 1960’s Thomas Riddick who was an engineer and chemist, wrote the book “Control of Colloid Stability Through Zeta Potential”. It was a master

biomedx.com

Is what's said there consistent with what you understand of the use of conductivity in health assessment?

The site also uses the ideas of Carey Reams, but I think just like me, it would draw from many sources and ideas and cherry pick the ones that make more sense for the practitioner. It mentions him here:

Biological Terrain 2

UNDERSTANDING BIOLOGICAL TERRAIN IN WELLNESS Core Concepts Flow Systems Auditing is a method that is able to view several factors of the fluid dynamics of the internal environment of the body. T

biomedx.com

 

[Jennifer]

I'm testing out oxalic acid as a therapy and during this time, I don't drink milk nor eat cheese or anything that's high in calcium except or the cooked greens. Been at it for 2 weeks and seems to lower my blood pressure, but it comes and goes. But it seems like it does lower my bp shortly after I drink 12 ounces of it, but as the day ends the bp goes up agaiin. So, I may try splitting into 2 6-ounce portions and take it morning and evening.

You’ve tried thyroid (standardized) and/or high dosing vitamin K to lower your blood pressure and they didn’t help?

But I also do what you do, and I still consider what I'm doing approximating. And like you, I don't rely on a conventional doctor. I still consider mine an approximation even though I consider it much better than relying of doctors, but there are still huge gaps in what I know, and in what measuring instruments I have available, and to say that I approximate is already an exaggeration.

If you were improving would you still consider it approximating?

The Horiba unit is more expensive, but it takes small samples to calibrate and to measure. I still would end up spending for a calibration solution, but I think the higher price is worth the convenience.

Me too.

Is what's said there consistent with what you understand of the use of conductivity in health assessment?

From an RBTI perspective, not exactly because it’s dependent on the other numbers in the equation for perfect health so if you adjust one part of the equation, all of the variables change and so the numbers aren’t perfect unless all the numbers are perfect.

 

[yerrag]

You’ve tried thyroid (standardized) and/or high dosing vitamin K to lower your blood pressure and they didn’t help?

I tried k2 45mg/day as Ray peat suggested. It didn't work because the cause of hypertension is a kidney glomerular issue, not with blood vessels being inflexible. My veins bulge, and it's said to not be a sign of inflexible blood vessels. So a lot of natural supplements, such as hawthorne, don't work as well because they're directed towards making the blood vessels more expandable.

I've tried Tyromix and Tyronene only. And I only tried them just to play with, meaning I don't have thyroid issues. Do you think thyroid would help even if my temperature is normal, and when markers for thyroid show I'm euthyroid? My Achilles tendox reflex and my ECG QTc both look good. I haven't relied on the serum thyroid panels because reverse T3 is too expensive where I'm at.

If you were improving would you still consider it approximating?

Good question. But it's something you'd know yourself. If there's still room for improvement, but you've maxed out, then there's still a chance something escaped you.

I am questioning the need for juicing more than it is necessary but that's just me. And I'm no expert but just happy to find what works for me. Your situation and mine are different and what's too much for me may just be right for you. But it's just a thought.

Me too.

I've ordered the unit. Another tool for self-testing. Yay!

Ironically, the worst thing that would happen when I test using it is for iy to tell me I'm optimal conductivity-wise, and I have to look for another issue to pin the blame on.

From an RBTI perspective, not exactly because it’s dependent on the other numbers in the equation for perfect health so if you adjust one part of the equation, all of the variables change and so the numbers aren’t perfect unless all the numbers are perfect.

Yes and no. I certainly wouldn't be able to do ABG blood testing at home, and getting blood pH, rH2, and r. So I'm missing already 3 variables out of 9. So that leaves me me incomplete.

But when I take my temperature and I take my heart rate, it still is better than not doing it. When I add the use of feeling of pulse, which herbal doctors do, it gets better. But then I realize I don't how to do that, so I get an oximeter that gives me my spO2, with a graph called a plethysmograph and a marker called the perfusion index, I can get closer to being an Avicenna in using the pulse to gauge my health.

And then I add in urine and saliva pH testing.

And with my ORP meter, I get to test the ORP of urine and saliva

And then with the Horiba, I get to test the conductivity of urine and saliva.

I am still approximating, but I think I can approximate better than a GP or a conventional doctor.

Yes, not at 100%, but enough for me.

With what you already know, do you still need to go to an RBTI doctor to get the full monty?

p.s. I also do my own 5hr oral glucose tolerance test, as well as use blood test markers.

 

[Jennifer]

I tried k2 45mg/day as Ray peat suggested. It didn't work because the cause of hypertension is a kidney glomerular issue, not with blood vessels being inflexible. My veins bulge, and it's said to not be a sign of inflexible blood vessels. So a lot of natural supplements, such as hawthorne, don't work as well because they're directed towards making the blood vessels more expandable.

I've tried Tyromix and Tyronene only. And I only tried them just to play with, meaning I don't have thyroid issues. Do you think thyroid would help even if my temperature is normal, and when markers for thyroid show I'm euthyroid? My Achilles tendox reflex and my ECG QTc both look good. I haven't relied on the serum thyroid panels because reverse T3 is too expensive where I'm at.

Bulging veins (and varicose and spider veins) I think of as a connective tissue weakness (thyroid/parathyroid glands) so compromised vascular integrity, in this case. I think thyroid may help if your temps are being falsely elevated by adrenaline.

Good question. But it's something you'd know yourself. If there's still room for improvement, but you've maxed out, then there's still a chance something escaped you.

I am questioning the need for juicing more than it is necessary but that's just me. And I'm no expert but just happy to find what works for me. Your situation and mine are different and what's too much for me may just be right for you. But it's just a thought.

Sorry, for the confusion. I was asking in regards to you, not me.

I've ordered the unit. Another tool for self-testing. Yay!

Haha! I hope you find it useful.

With what you already know, do you still need to go to an RBTI doctor to get the full monty?

I’d say consulting with an RBTI practitioner would be like if you were to consult with Ray. There are enough books and information online, even courses in the case of RBTI, to gain a good understanding of Ray’s and Reams’ work, but a practitioner has experience under their belt working with a larger group of “rats” and can quickly spot and troubleshoot any issues that may occur. It’s an investment—I spent a fairly astronomical amount of money working with my practitioner—but so is time and I learned sooner working with her than I likely would have working on my own that RBTI wasn’t for me. I know myself well enough to know that had I not worked with her, I would have told myself the same BS I often told myself when something wasn’t working but I so desperately wanted it to—“I must not be doing it right.”—and spent even more precious years of my life on something that turned out to be just another theory, trying to make it work.

 

[yerrag]

Bulging veins (and varicose and spider veins) I think of as a connective tissue weakness (thyroid/parathyroid glands) so compromised vascular integrity, in this case. I think thyroid may help if your temps are being falsely elevated by adrenaline.

Just bulging, relative to normal veins but no varicose and spider veins.

So, like I said, it shows that the blood vessels are not rigid, and so with the increased pressure, can expand because they're not rigid. Which is why it conforms with my high blood pressure is not caused by a systemic hardening of the arteries, and this is why taking vitamin k2 does not work in lowering my bp. My high blood pressure is related to the kidneys.

I am not sure that thyroid will work here.

Sorry, for the confusion. I was asking in regards to you, not me.

If it's me, w/r to juicing, it hasn't made a difference. But so has everything else pretty much. But I have to question everything I've done, after each not working.

Following the idea that urine pH can offer some solid clues in itself definitely was wrong, and needed to be used together with other markers such as breathing rate, as well as saliva pH. Adding ORP and conductivity meaurements would also be helpful.

So, no, so far my approximating methods have not helped me enough. I missed some important clues, such as excessive urination, which I'd gotten used to and shrugged off. Now I realize that as long as 5 years ago, I already had that problem. It was only recenty that I began to record each time I urinated, that I had to see its frequency and volume as related to my issue of high blood pressure, and relating it to potassium loss and high aldosterone, and connect it also to periodontal infection and immune complexes accunulating in my kidneys and the inflammation and oxidative stresses associated with low serum albumin (albumin being used as an antioxidant and leading to low serum albumin) and low blood volume. I'm making no sense to you probably but in short it's this whole ball of wax cum jig saw puzzle that has to be put together to make sense in order to have a solution.

I’d say consulting with an RBTI practitioner would be like if you were to consult with Ray. There are enough books and information online, even courses in the case of RBTI, to gain a good understanding of Ray’s and Reams’ work, but a practitioner has experience under their belt working with a larger group of “rats” and can quickly spot and troubleshoot any issues that may occur. It’s an investment—I spent a fairly astronomical amount of money working with my practitioner—but so is time and I learned sooner working with her than I likely would have working on my own that RBTI wasn’t for me. I know myself well enough to know that had I not worked with her, I would have told myself the same BS I often told myself when something wasn’t working but I so desperately wanted it to—“I’m must not be doing it right.”—and spent even more precious years of my life on something that turned out to be just another theory, trying to make it work.

That's good it has worked for you. That approach has worked as well for me because working with naturopaths has made us learn that otherwise we wouldn't have had we been working with conventional doctors. But I also see their flaws even as I see some flaws in Ray Peat's approach. To such extent that I believe the next step would be for me to be my own doctor. Even with Ray Peat, and even with my naturopath, they have come to see the use of high blood lowering drugs as necessary - as they feared for my life - that the high blood pressure would keep rising and cause worse outcomes.

I can't blame them but they do not want to be responsible for it and not knowing any better, would consider it a safe choice to take the drugs. But I am not worse off, but maybe even better, despite the high blood pressure getting even higher, because it's me learning that - no, my kidneys did not worsen, and no, my blood vessels did not explode, and yes, my blood pressure kept going up to great levels that would cause ER nurses to panic, but that's as bad as it went.

I would see my high blood pressure as merely the body's adaptation to the slow loss of blood volume that can be confirmed by rbc values. The loss being due to the gradual loss of serum albumin that leads to lower blood volume and the lower blood volume would be compensated by higher blood pressures.

So my job is to work on restoring the blood volume, and with that to increase serum albumin, and with that, to fix the inflammation and oxidative stresses that use up my serum albumin. And so here is where the whole ball of wax begins. And this puzzle cannot be left to any doctor to solve because they have gotten in a different direction.

But that is my perspective. Like I said it can be seen as a flaw for beng stubborn and it can be seen as a virtue for being persistent. But flaw can magically transform in a virtue when one is vindicated. It is not a nice word but it's the only apt term for that. It is a small battle, but a battle nonetheless.

 

[Jennifer]

@yerrag, I understand. I hope you solve the puzzle soon. I wish you luck! :)

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag, I understand. I hope you solve the puzzle soon. I wish you luck! :)

Thanks Jennifer.

 

[Amazoniac]

That's what I told you taking a lot of garlic for a good 2-3 weeks. It made my urine very acidic and I felt bad. I was sneezing and having allergic rhinitis. It really lowered my immunity.

Overactivation of the immune system can do that, people who are sensitive to environmental toxins such as poison/"vitamin" A complain of something similar. You know that it can change the course of cellular respiration, with less oxygen accepting hydrogen ions to become water and decreased availability of waste productide.

I took the copper acetylsalicylate to see if I could get better effects from copper acetate. It was mainly for the combined effect of being antibacterial from copper and of being anti-inflammatory from the acetate. I thought that it was effective from that standpoint, but I wasn't paying attention to my urination then. Sulfate is very acidic, as compared to acetylsalicylate and taurine, and that was what I experienced from taking a shitload of garlic. Even if you were to say garlic is safe, my experience tells me in large quantities on a daily basis - not a good idea. But just as taking magnesium chloride is an acidic load, which I experienced also for the same effects too much garlic did to me, I would not want to take anything with sulfates in large amounts daily. Sulfuric acid is a very strong acid. it's not a good idea.

But then again I wouldn't wrap everything with sulfate as bad. Just like I would not say everything would chloride anions as bad. With magnesium as magnesium chloride- bad - because it is an acidic load on the body - as shown in the Remer article you shared. But also in the same article, it's shown that taking NaCl, as well as KCl, isn't because the acidic load is minimal.

Can you suggest something with sulfates that isn't going to be a significant acidic load that can be taken daily?

I don't think that the imbalance from KCl is minimal, it's not like MgCl2 that has one part of magnesium for two parts of chloride, but compartment distribution is different in both cases, there can be a significant amount of unpaired K inside the cell and Cl outside.

When NaCl dissociates, the distribution is similar, so it doesn't have the issue of different compartment, but it does have an acidifying effect. Outside and inside the cells the ion ratio is in favor of sodium, whereas purified sodium chloride has them even and sea salt usually has it in favor of chloride. Therefore, in both cases of consumption you're getting extra chloride that tends to lower other anions in compensation. Maybe there are special sites that are able to accumulate chloride in a desirable way and mitigate the disproportion (stomach cells for example), but dietary intakes surpass regulations and it's why they observe the trend of lowering circulating hydrocraponate as the table salt consumption increases. It's also one of the reasons why (in fluid replacement) saline solution isn't ideal, they fix the ratio in favor of sodium, you'll have a hard time finding one that has sodium chloride evenly, let alone in favor of chloride.
- Intravenous balanced solutions: From physiology to clinical evidence

Regarding sulfate, you can source it from mineral waters and compare their makeup to find one that you judge appropriate.

San Pellegrino is the most popular option that contains a considerable amount of sulfate to make a difference (about 450 mg/L, yet also contains 500 mcg of fluoride per liter). There are waters with much higher content, Hépar is an extreme example (almost 1500 mg/L). The majority of these waters won't provide you an overwhelming amount of sulfate per serving, but using them for cooking is another matter.

The advantage of sodium as cation is that its absorption is high and remains as such regardless of the dose, while the absorption efficiency of sulfate starts to decrease as the dose is increased. This means that the uptake of sodium will never be lower than sulfate, which prevents acidification, and their compartment distribution must be similar, although a portion of sulfate should be cleared by the liver (probably put to good use), just like it happens with various other anions. However, sodium might boost the 'hypokillcemic' effect that sulfate may have.

I was taking bicarbonate in the form of magnesium bicarbonate at 400 mg magnesium daily. When I did get around to compute how much bicarbonate I was getting, I realized I was taking a lot. I can't recall in exact weight, but the bicarbonate intake was equivalent to more than 3 grams of baking soda. So in that kind of excess, it was more likely the body would have to do cartwheels to deal with it

I think that it provides about 6.5x the amount of magnesium, but if you consumed it spaced out, it shouldn't have been disturbing.

Do you respond to plain craponate salts the same way? It differs from hydrocraponate in how it affects the person in spite of both being alkalinizers.

The potassium takes the place of ammonium, so that the kidneys do not have to make ammonia, and spares the kidneys some work. And hydrogen ion has to be attached to ammonia to make it a cation, because hydrogen paired with say Cl makes HCl which is too acidic for the kidneys and bladders to handle as the HCl would fry them. But KCl or NH4Cl isn't that acidic, and they can be excreted as urine.

But the problem with potassium being used for excretion of acids is that it robs the cell of potassium, which acts as a regulator of calcium influx into the cell, to help keep cells from being calcified.

To keep this from happening, potassium intake is a must. But what form of potassium salt do we need and which fruits or veggies have them? That is another question.

The kidney can alkalinize through the excretion of acids and recovery of bases. The concentration of free hydrogen ions in urine is fairly low, so there has to be a fate for them. Potassium and sodium can't take up hydrogen ions, so they can't do anything about this directly. In facto, if hydrocarbonate is formed in kidney cells from dissociation of carbonic acid (yielding hydrogen and hydrocarbonate ions), sodium is recovered from the lumen of the tubule on its way out for excretion in exchange of hydrogen ion, so that hydrocarbonate has a pair to maintain ion neutrality when returning to circulation. This means that sodium is lowered in urine while hydrogen is increased and buffers are needed to prevent it from becoming too acidic.

Therefore, they won't replace buffers, or ammonia that's in question. If it was possible to manipulate them this way, it would transfer the duty to phosphate, but there are limitations for this to happen and it's why in acidosis ammonia gains importance. Chloride depletion isn't a viable option because it's needed in a certain proportion in fluids.

Net Acid Excretion is calculated without factoring in potassium or sodium, it's the amount of protons taken up by ammonia and other buffers discounting hydrocarbonate.

 

[yerrag]

Sorry, I really have a hard time understanding what you're saying. Please clarify as you're going way over my head:

Overactivation of the immune system can do that, people who are sensitive to environmental toxins such as poison/"vitamin" A complain of something similar. You know that it can change the course of cellular respiration, with less oxygen accepting hydrogen ions to become water and decreased availability of waste productide.

Do you mean that taking a lot of garlic can change cellular respiration, and it does so because less oxygen accepts hydrogen ions and decreasing availability of waste produced (producticide- tawh era gniklat tuoba?)

Why does less oxygen accept hydrogen ions, thus decreasing waste production? Can you be more specific?

Is this about less oxygen being available for respiration to go from glycolytic and moving on to the TCA cycle? If so, why not say so? If not? What are you saying?