Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism

[ShotTrue]

I'd be more interested in finding the physiological differences in using exemestane vs letrozole/Anastrozole.
I think I'd had much worse joint problems from exemstane than letrozole, for example

 

[haidut]

I definitely suffered from abdominal obesity when I've used aromatase inhibitors too much. Complete loss of energy etc. Also in these studies they are taking bone-promoting synthetic androgens. Also you do point here "skeletal-specific E2 is not required for androgen induced bone maintenance or that only a very minimal threshold concentration of E2 may be required for bone health in adult males(5)."

Can you really say estrogen is not needed for bones when they are using tren which builds up bones at the same time? Also from my experience aromasin usually comes in doses of 12.5 to 25 mg and letrozole at 2.5 mg, so most bodybuilders do use those large doses just once at week or so

Given that trenbolone absolutely tanks both T and E2/E1 levels even below detectability then, yes, I would argue that there is something else other than estrogen repsonsible for bone growth and that something is likely progesterone (as I mentioned before). Trenbolone is several times stronger agonist on PR than even progesterone and the combination of PR and AR agonism is probably what accounts for its bone-anabolic effects. Consider the recent studies with SARMs, all of which were developed to have nothing but AR agonism properties in specific tissues and they are usually highly anabolic for the bone without any known estrogenic effects. So, the evidence so far points to progesterone and androgens being much more important for bones and muscle health than estrogen. In fact, aside from causing uncontrolled growth that is useful typically only in an open wound and/or broken bone, I am not sure what other positive function estrogen has.

 

[ShotTrue]

Given that trenbolone absolutely tanks both T and E2/E1 levels even below detectability then, yes, I would argue that there is something else other than estrogen repsonsible for bone growth and that something is likely progesterone (as I mentioned before). Trenbolone is several times stronger agonist on PR than even progesterone and the combination of PR and AR agonism is probably what accounts for its bone-anabolic effects. Consider the recent studies with SARMs, all of which were developed to have nothing but AR agonism properties in specific tissues and they are usually highly anabolic for the bone without any known estrogenic effects. So, the evidence so far points to progesterone and androgens being much more important for bones and muscle health than estrogen. In fact, aside from causing uncontrolled growth that is useful typically only in an open wound and/or broken bone, I am not sure what other positive function estrogen has.

That may be possible but youre ignoring the point that added a huge synethic androgen that builds bone into the situation, maybe its the extra androgens adding bone tissue in place of lost estrogen

 

[haidut]

That may be possible but youre ignoring the point that added a huge synethic androgen that builds bone into the situation, maybe its the extra androgens adding bone tissue in place of lost estrogen

Well, yeah, that is my point actually. That it's the androgens and progesterone responsible for bone building, and NOT estrogen. As such, estrogen is NOT needed for bone/muscle growth, which is what the title of that thread I linked to states.
How is what you said different from what I said?

 

[ShotTrue]

Well, yeah, that is my point actually. That it's the androgens and progesterone responsible for bone building, and NOT estrogen. As such, estrogen is NOT needed for bone/muscle growth, which is what the title of that thread I linked to states.
How is what you said different from what I said?

I'm thinking that doesn't prove you don't need it in someone NOT taking trenbolone. Would someone with normal androgens and progesterone, no outside androgens, no outside progesterone, have bone building health without estrogen

 

[haidut]

Would someone with normal androgens and progesterone, no outside androgens, no outside progesterone, have bone building health without estrogen

I would say yes, and there are studies proving that but...they are mostly in rodents.
Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism

But it has also been demonstrated in people with exemestane - its lowers estrogen and has androgenic effect through its metabolite(s), and has anabolic effects on bone in women when used in doses below 12.5mg daily.
Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen

So, just like you said - no or very low estrogen, higher androgens, progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA. I would like to see a more seelctive AI without effects on any other steroids being developed but for now low-dose exemestane is the closest we have.

 

[sladerunner69]

I also have to testify that I’ve done better when my blood estrogen is higher regards to energy and libido at least. Ive taken androsterone and on blood test it lowered my estrogen quite a lot. My libido went down. If I take zinc my libido tends to go down and energy. Now recently got hold of aromasin and been doing 5mg and tried 10mg and same effects libido goes down. So estrogen is 100% needed for libido at least. Seems go be some mechanism through NO as drugs like viagra etc stops working for people when they use AI or have low estrogen.

NO is implicated for sure, because low estrogen tends to make the male erection less firm.

 

[Texon]

I feel best with my Estrogen a bit high (70 area). Previously when taking AI and keeping my e2 low was just a mess, horrible libido, joint pain. etc

Since I stopped using an AI to keep my e2 around 15-30 and let it rise to 70 range. my Morning wood has returned.

Crushing estrogen is a bad idea. We need eatrogen

I agree totally. Correct me if I am wrong but I think we need a reasonable amount (whatever that is) of estrogen for heart health. The trend in trt seems to be just keeping an eye on the trt to estrogen ratio instead of an absolute/low estrogen range of 15-20. About 20:1 of testosterone to e2 comes to mind.

 

[boxers]

I agree totally. Correct me if I am wrong but I think we need a reasonable amount (whatever that is) of estrogen for heart health. The trend in trt seems to be just keeping an eye on the trt to estrogen ratio instead of an absolute/low estrogen range of 15-20. About 20:1 of testosterone to e2 comes to mind.

Yes I think what you said is perfect.

 

[Momado965]

How is your total T? High estrogen may give you good libido but that does not mean it is the optimal way to do it. High T with E2 in the bottom 25% also gives people great libido. This is the phenotype 20yo males have, together with higher progesterone.
High dose Masteron (drostanolone) is notorious for turning people into sexually berserk rhinos yet it crushes E2 (and E1) below detectable levels. In fact, about 20% of the people on whom drostanolone was tested back in the 1960s dropped out of the trials due to excessive libido. They could just not do anything except think about sex 24x7.
So, libido is probably not the best metric of estrogen's healthiness, and there are arguably healthier ways to achieve it. According to the study above even bone health can be perfectly maintained by non-aromatizable steroids like DHT or trenbolone, even when adding an AI.
Estrogen is THE primordial growth hormone. Growth, as in uncontrolled, de-differentiating type. The bad kind, the kind that kills if left unchecked for too long. I don't think estrogen should be crushed, but most people probably produce and carry around way more than what they need for optimal health. Increased peripheral aromatization is one of the earliest biomarkers of aging/disease.
Just my 2c.

Was it methyldrostanolone or drostanolone prop?

 

[Momado965]

How is your total T? High estrogen may give you good libido but that does not mean it is the optimal way to do it. High T with E2 in the bottom 25% also gives people great libido. This is the phenotype 20yo males have, together with higher progesterone.
High dose Masteron (drostanolone) is notorious for turning people into sexually berserk rhinos yet it crushes E2 (and E1) below detectable levels. In fact, about 20% of the people on whom drostanolone was tested back in the 1960s dropped out of the trials due to excessive libido. They could just not do anything except think about sex 24x7.
So, libido is probably not the best metric of estrogen's healthiness, and there are arguably healthier ways to achieve it. According to the study above even bone health can be perfectly maintained by non-aromatizable steroids like DHT or trenbolone, even when adding an AI.
Estrogen is THE primordial growth hormone. Growth, as in uncontrolled, de-differentiating type. The bad kind, the kind that kills if left unchecked for too long. I don't think estrogen should be crushed, but most people probably produce and carry around way more than what they need for optimal health. Increased peripheral aromatization is one of the earliest biomarkers of aging/disease.
Just my 2c.

What is a high drostanolone dose? I have been taking 30mg a day and still didnt go berserk.

 

[boxers]

 

[Jing]

What is a high drostanolone dose? I have been taking 30mg a day and still didnt go berserk.

What did you feel from drostanlone? And did you up the dose?

 

[Momado965]

What did you feel from drostanlone? And did you up the dose?

Insane energy and massively insane libido at 80-100mg.

 

[Jing]

Insane energy and massively insane libido at 80-100mg.

Makes me want to try it, any negatives?

 

[Momado965]

Makes me want to try it, any negatives?

So far so good.

 

[Murtaza]

So far so good.

ive been meaning to try drostanolone, can you tell me what good effects have you seen from it?

 

[Momado965]

ive been meaning to try drostanolone, can you tell me what good effects have you seen from it?

Mainly great mood, high calming energy and insane libido at 80+mg.

 

[DetailNazi]

Given that trenbolone absolutely tanks both T and E2/E1 levels even below detectability then, yes, I would argue that there is something else other than estrogen repsonsible for bone growth and that something is likely progesterone (as I mentioned before). Trenbolone is several times stronger agonist on PR than even progesterone and the combination of PR and AR agonism is probably what accounts for its bone-anabolic effects. Consider the recent studies with SARMs, all of which were developed to have nothing but AR agonism properties in specific tissues and they are usually highly anabolic for the bone without any known estrogenic effects. So, the evidence so far points to progesterone and androgens being much more important for bones and muscle health than estrogen. In fact, aside from causing uncontrolled growth that is useful typically only in an open wound and/or broken bone, I am not sure what other positive function estrogen has.

Hi dude. I've been lurking your posts for awhile but nobody asked what I needed from this thread so I created an account specifically to talk to you. Why does tren suppress your testosterone if 1. we established that estrogen is responsible for negative feedback to the hypothalamus, and thus we use an AI as part of PCT, 2. Tren is non-aromatizable, non-estrogenic, highly androgenic and thus suppresses estrogen, and has progestogenic effects (I don't know if it acts like a 'progestin' poison like medroxyprogesterone acetate... but it may very well be the case since people DO complain of 19-nor (tren) **** and gyno from elevated prolactin, which is an estrogenic effect, not progesteronic) 3. progesterone is anti-estrogenic, and so tren's PR activation suggests that it shouldn't be subject to prolactin effects, so you shouldn't even need to run a dopamine agonist like cabergoline with it 4. in another thread you stated the following:

"The estrogen role in gonadal atrophy caused by T is suggested by one of the studies showing that while "lower" doses T (in the range of HED 1mg/kg daily) were suppressible and caused gonadal atrophy, VERY high doses (equivalent to 1g+ daily in humans) increased gonadal size. .... It will also be recalled that small doses of testosterone cause a testis atrophy which is not seen at high dose levels (1 1). This fact could best be explained by the assumption that comparatively low doses of testoids inhibit the gonadotropic hormone secretion of the pituitary and thus cause a secondary testis involution which, in the case of high doses, is over-compensated by the direct testis-stimulating effect of these compounds."

The only explanation I can think of that reconciles some of this is that testosterone / AR activation ALSO feeds back to the hypothalamus. Otherwise past a certain threshold of AR activation estrogen would become totally suppressed forever and the release of androgens would become a positive feedback loop. "VERY high doses increased gonadal size"... so if it turns out that the progesteronic effect of tren is actually progesteronic and not estrogenic, why doesn't blasting tren give you massive balls? Even if there is some estrogenic effect from tren (there must be if there's gyno and tren ****) then doesn't the same logic apply - just run it in a high enough dose and the androgenicity will beat the estrogenicity into submission?

 

[b555]

How is your total T? High estrogen may give you good libido but that does not mean it is the optimal way to do it. High T with E2 in the bottom 25% also gives people great libido. This is the phenotype 20yo males have, together with higher progesterone.
High dose Masteron (drostanolone) is notorious for turning people into sexually berserk rhinos yet it crushes E2 (and E1) below detectable levels. In fact, about 20% of the people on whom drostanolone was tested back in the 1960s dropped out of the trials due to excessive libido. They could just not do anything except think about sex 24x7.
So, libido is probably not the best metric of estrogen's healthiness, and there are arguably healthier ways to achieve it. According to the study above even bone health can be perfectly maintained by non-aromatizable steroids like DHT or trenbolone, even when adding an AI.
Estrogen is THE primordial growth hormone. Growth, as in uncontrolled, de-differentiating type. The bad kind, the kind that kills if left unchecked for too long. I don't think estrogen should be crushed, but most people probably produce and carry around way more than what they need for optimal health. Increased peripheral aromatization is one of the earliest biomarkers of aging/disease.
Just my 2c.

what was the dose and length for using Masteron?