Announcement Forum Official Stance on "vitamin A" Research, Studies, & Direction

[TheDogsDid-It!]

ALT is a blood lab measure of liver health. Dr. Attia says that ALT should be below 19 for optimum liver health. What I don't see on this Vit A forum is what was the ALT before and after minimizing Vit A. Anecdotal "I feel better" is not proof. Only blood lab measurements and RCT can be accepted **** proof.

I completely understand @charlie's passion with delivering the most up-to-date information, with the most scientific information possible, and with the added goal of protecting those that may have been injured from 'possible' past misinformation. I came to this forum through my own research, seeking answers for my own health concerns and goals. It is not my intention to mislead anyone on any topic of health, and I have given up on my own passion to help others by sharing what works for me, because I often found it almost never works for anyone else. We are all so different, and many things factor into health, such as the mysterious placebo/nocebo effects. I love listening to Bruce Lipton and Dr. Joe Dispenza to learn how to understand and make better use of those mysteries. But, there is only so much time available with joining and sorting through soooo many forums. I already spend an average time of 4 hours a day researching, so I had hopes this could be the best forum to at least get some guidance. I too have been injured in the past from doctors orders, and that experience taught me to research and verify for myself, so I tend to gravitate to the posts on this forum that, include links for sources/references for further research. I do like to think for myself.

I started VA (10/3/23), not even two weeks after joining this forum, and noticed only improvements in at least my eyesight. It was always on my mind to add it, since my DNA report said I can't convert to the appropriate VA. Maybe what I noticed for improvement was the placebo effect; maybe I'm not reading or understanding my lab tests correctly (very possible, because I never discussed the VA with my doc); or maybe I'm an anomaly (and not the first time labeled as such by doctors). However, just because I haven't noticed any ill effects with VA yet, I understand that doesn't mean I won't if it accumulates, so I greatly reduced my dosage, and will continue to take VA and test, because at least for me, placebo or not, my eyesight has improved. I did post a comment to that fact, and saw another comment the same day that seemed to give me some possible insight:

PEATFUL:
Beta-carotene is a precursor to Vitamin A (provitamin A) from plant sources that humans, especially low thyroid or hypothyroid humans, are VERY poor converters of beta-carotene and the more one eats, the less it is converted into retinol. Beta-carotene must be converted to retinol and research has shown this happens at a rate of about 3% AND requires thyroid hormone, copper, and vitamin C, to make this conversion.

Because of the interest in testing, I am providing my tests for both my micronutrient tests for VA (2019 and 2023), and I went into Quest Labs and did a snapshot history for the ALT, though I couldn't go back as far as 2019 for that (from 2021 to 2023). It just seems to me that, my VA levels dropped after taking VA, and my ALT levels improved as well. As a side note, the only red flag in that long CMP for the ALT levels, shows my fasting glucose shot up for the first time, and that was also when I tried to add fruits to my diet, which my body quickly protested. My apologies for the bad copies of the micronutrients tests. I was not successful with my requests to VibrantAmerica, nor my doctor for digital copies, so my notes on the hard copies are a bit messy for sure.

But long story short, I still want to keep up on Vitamin A info, as science is ALWAYS changing. I'm interested in any suggestions on where to go, but not a big deal I guess. I'll figure it out.

I can provide my CRP tests as well. 12/29/23 it was 0.3. The highest it has been is 0.9.

 

[charlie]

Pro PUFA arguments and studies were allowed on the forum even though they were marked as "anti Peat", and id argue to an extent they were necessary to learn, echo chambers become the death of progress. Why not do the same if you want to have some overarching statement over all forum members. Label whatever thing you consider "anti Garrett" or whatever, but let it at least exist...

Many should take note of how @RealNeat handled this, like a true gentleman and with honor. No attack, no condescending tone, just stating his case and obviously hoping for the best. Appreciate how you handled this, sir.

After further consideration, I am retracting my stance on not allowing pro "vitamin A" studies.

It is still my position that if "vitamin A" is needed, it is such a small amount, avoiding it as much as possible will yield great results so that accumulation does not come into play. I have seen this work for myself, and many others. In the coming months as we move closer to a low toxin lifestyle the results will speak for themselves. I have no doubt, in the future, as a group we will understand that this was a great move as many will start reaping the benefits of this newfound knowledge.

 

[RealNeat]

Many should take note of how @RealNeat handled this, like a true gentleman and with honor. No attack, no condescending tone, just stating his case and obviously hoping for the best. Appreciate how you handled this, sir.

After further consideration, I am retracting my stance on not allowing pro "vitamin A" studies.

It is still my position that if "vitamin A" is needed, it is such a small amount, avoiding it as much as possible will yield great results so that accumulation does not come into play. I have seen this work for myself, and many others. In the coming months as we move closer to a low toxin lifestyle the results will speak for themselves. I have no doubt, in the future, as a group we will understand that this was a great move as many will start reaping the benefits of this newfound knowledge.

Thanks for reconsidering Charlie. Holding space for both sides (or however many sides it has) of the debate may seem cluttering, but it really helps connect the dots if approached with curiosity and a desire to learn and expand.

 

[InChristAlone]

I completely understand @charlie's passion with delivering the most up-to-date information, with the most scientific information possible, and with the added goal of protecting those that may have been injured from 'possible' past misinformation. I came to this forum through my own research, seeking answers for my own health concerns and goals. It is not my intention to mislead anyone on any topic of health, and I have given up on my own passion to help others by sharing what works for me, because I often found it almost never works for anyone else. We are all so different, and many things factor into health, such as the mysterious placebo/nocebo effects. I love listening to Bruce Lipton and Dr. Joe Dispenza to learn how to understand and make better use of those mysteries. But, there is only so much time available with joining and sorting through soooo many forums. I already spend an average time of 4 hours a day researching, so I had hopes this could be the best forum to at least get some guidance. I too have been injured in the past from doctors orders, and that experience taught me to research and verify for myself, so I tend to gravitate to the posts on this forum that, include links for sources/references for further research. I do like to think for myself.

I started VA (10/3/23), not even two weeks after joining this forum, and noticed only improvements in at least my eyesight. It was always on my mind to add it, since my DNA report said I can't convert to the appropriate VA. Maybe what I noticed for improvement was the placebo effect; maybe I'm not reading or understanding my lab tests correctly (very possible, because I never discussed the VA with my doc); or maybe I'm an anomaly (and not the first time labeled as such by doctors). However, just because I haven't noticed any ill effects with VA yet, I understand that doesn't mean I won't if it accumulates, so I greatly reduced my dosage, and will continue to take VA and test, because at least for me, placebo or not, my eyesight has improved. I did post a comment to that fact, and saw another comment the same day that seemed to give me some possible insight:

PEATFUL:
Beta-carotene is a precursor to Vitamin A (provitamin A) from plant sources that humans, especially low thyroid or hypothyroid humans, are VERY poor converters of beta-carotene and the more one eats, the less it is converted into retinol. Beta-carotene must be converted to retinol and research has shown this happens at a rate of about 3% AND requires thyroid hormone, copper, and vitamin C, to make this conversion.

Because of the interest in testing, I am providing my tests for both my micronutrient tests for VA (2019 and 2023), and I went into Quest Labs and did a snapshot history for the ALT, though I couldn't go back as far as 2019 for that (from 2021 to 2023). It just seems to me that, my VA levels dropped after taking VA, and my ALT levels improved as well. As a side note, the only red flag in that long CMP for the ALT levels, shows my fasting glucose shot up for the first time, and that was also when I tried to add fruits to my diet, which my body quickly protested. My apologies for the bad copies of the micronutrients tests. I was not successful with my requests to VibrantAmerica, nor my doctor for digital copies, so my notes on the hard copies are a bit messy for sure.

But long story short, I still want to keep up on Vitamin A info, as science is ALWAYS changing. I'm interested in any suggestions on where to go, but not a big deal I guess. I'll figure it out.

I can provide my CRP tests as well. 12/29/23 it was 0.3. The highest it has been is 0.9.

Your creatine has been pretty low, that's an indication you don't eat enough protein. Which says to me you don't get a lot of zinc in your diet. Zinc deficiency causes an apparent need for vitamin A. And your alkaline phosphatase backs this up, it's very low. This is a zinc dependent enzyme. CO2 which is actually a measure of bicarbonate is below optimal, this could indicate a thiamine deficiency or metabolic acidosis or respiratory alkalosis.

 

[charlie]

Your creatine has been pretty low, that's an indication you don't eat enough protein. Which says to me you don't get a lot of zinc in your diet. Zinc deficiency causes an apparent need for vitamin A. And your alkaline phosphatase backs this up, it's very low. This is a zinc dependent enzyme. CO2 which is actually a measure of bicarbonate is below optimal, this could indicate a thiamine deficiency or metabolic acidosis or respiratory alkalosis.

I was the same exact thing. He is not dealing with a vitamin A deficiency, he is dealing with a protein, zinc, taurine deficiency.

Thanks for reconsidering Charlie. Holding space for both sides (or however many sides it has) of the debate may seem cluttering, but it really helps connect the dots if approached with curiosity and a desire to learn and expand.

I agree. Thank you for sharing your insight.

 

[High_Prob]

Please let me know if I understood this right, because I'm still a bit surprised. A user can post a study showing detrimental health effects of vitamin A. But no one can post another study from the same medical journal (whatever it be....The Lancet, BMJ, etc) concluding otherwise. The later will not be allowed... is this correct?

This is a great question. Sadly, we know what the answer is going to be. Dah well.

 

[Peater]

Many should take note of how @RealNeat handled this, like a true gentleman and with honor. No attack, no condescending tone, just stating his case and obviously hoping for the best. Appreciate how you handled this, sir.

After further consideration, I am retracting my stance on not allowing pro "vitamin A" studies.

It is still my position that if "vitamin A" is needed, it is such a small amount, avoiding it as much as possible will yield great results so that accumulation does not come into play. I have seen this work for myself, and many others. In the coming months as we move closer to a low toxin lifestyle the results will speak for themselves. I have no doubt, in the future, as a group we will understand that this was a great move as many will start reaping the benefits of this newfound knowledge.

That's good charlie. I'm finding value in Garrett's work for sure, it was thanks to his Twitter that i found out about B6 toxicity, never mind the vitamin A ideas. I haven't had liver since before Christmas, I'm eating oats and my niacin powder should arrive tomorrow He does say he doesn't do protocols so maybe there are some people that can handle vit A rich foods and benefit from the other nutrients. I'm going at it slowly and trying to see if it all works for me.

 

[charlie]

This is a great question. Sadly, we know what the answer is going to be. Dah well.

All you had to do was read up a few posts for the answer.

 

[High_Prob]

All you had to do was read up a few posts for the answer.

Oh cool! My bad. Thanks Charlie.

 

[charlie]

Oh cool! My bad. Thanks Charlie.

Sir.

 

[charlie]

That's good charlie. I'm finding value in Garrett's work for sure, it was thanks to his Twitter that i found out about B6 toxicity, never mind the vitamin A ideas. I haven't had liver since before Christmas, I'm eating oats and my niacin powder should arrive tomorrow He does say he doesn't do protocols so maybe there are some people that can handle vit A rich foods and benefit from the other nutrients. I'm going at it slowly and trying to see if it all works for me.

Mam.

 

[TheSir]

After further consideration, I am retracting my stance on not allowing pro "vitamin A" studies

Thank you. You made the right choice.

 

[charlie]

Thank you. You made the right choice.

 

[Soren]

Thank you for this change Charlie, open debate is always the right choice as long as it is respectful.

 

[charlie]

Thank you for this change Charlie, open debate is always the right choice as long as it is respectful.

I agree, especially the respectful part.

 

[TheDogsDid-It!]

Your creatine has been pretty low, that's an indication you don't eat enough protein. Which says to me you don't get a lot of zinc in your diet. Zinc deficiency causes an apparent need for vitamin A. And your alkaline phosphatase backs this up, it's very low. This is a zinc dependent enzyme. CO2 which is actually a measure of bicarbonate is below optimal, this could indicate a thiamine deficiency or metabolic acidosis or respiratory alkalosis.

Wow, thank you SO much for taking the time to review and respond. I will definitely keep a watch. It has been a hard recovery from what has now been determined to most likely have been a parasite I picked up from travel. In the hospital, they called it UC and said the damage was such that, I needed to have my colon removed and a liver transplant, because my immune system had caused damage to the valves. I left after ten days, colon and liver in tact, because I knew enough to know it was not UC. I never had another incidence of what they called UC, but the damage has been really hard to recover from, especially when your colon is not even as solid as cheesecloth.

I do take in a lot of protein, and because of previous testing I have always taken zinc. But I agree with you on the low protein. I eat the best and cleanest, probably way too much dairy. (usually sheep and goat), but I went back to my microbiome test and there seems to be issues with protein digestion, because my putrescine production pathway was not good at all, but that test was back in 2020. I'll do more experiments and testing. I have to be getting some protein, because my 2023 DEXA shows me 71% lean mass total. I have an oxiline scale that matches fairly closely to DEXA, and have gained 2 more pounds of lean muscle. Maybe I'm just now taking in enough protein for the amount of exercise I do, because I do a lot of that. Thanks again for helping me move forward in a better direction!

 

[InChristAlone]

Wow, thank you SO much for taking the time to review and respond. I will definitely keep a watch. It has been a hard recovery from what has now been determined to most likely have been a parasite I picked up from travel. In the hospital, they called it UC and said the damage was such that, I needed to have my colon removed and a liver transplant, because my immune system had caused damage to the valves. I left after ten days, colon and liver in tact, because I knew enough to know it was not UC. I never had another incidence of what they called UC, but the damage has been really hard to recover from, especially when your colon is not even as solid as cheesecloth.

I do take in a lot of protein, and because of previous testing I have always taken zinc. But I agree with you on the low protein. I eat the best and cleanest, probably way too much dairy. (usually sheep and goat), but I went back to my microbiome test and there seems to be issues with protein digestion, because my putrescine production pathway was not good at all, but that test was back in 2020. I'll do more experiments and testing. I have to be getting some protein, because my 2023 DEXA shows me 71% lean mass total. I have an oxiline scale that matches fairly closely to DEXA, and have gained 2 more pounds of lean muscle. Maybe I'm just now taking in enough protein for the amount of exercise I do, because I do a lot of that. Thanks again for helping me move forward in a better direction!

When were you in the hospital? do you still have signs of UC?

Yes getting all your protein from dairy can cause a zinc deficiency, which will cause low stomach acid, which will cause protein putrefaction. I will need more info about the state of your intestinal health to say much more.

 

[TheDogsDid-It!]

When were you in the hospital? do you still have signs of UC?

Yes getting all your protein from dairy can cause a zinc deficiency, which will cause low stomach acid, which will cause protein putrefaction. I will need more info about the state of your intestinal health to say much more.

I was in the hospital October 2013. I had never had signs of UC before that time, nor since leaving the hospital, or even up to this point in time. I actually didn't even have a GP doctor in 2013, nor before 2013, because I never had any illnesses to move me to find one. I only had a naturopath for BHRT, which I started to see in 2012.

I had suddenly gotten sick in 2013 and called my naturopath's office to cancel an appointment, telling the receptionist I had really bad diarrhea and wouldn't be able to sit in the waiting room. The naturopath called me and asked my symptoms and how often I was going to the bathroom. I wasn't really leaving the bathroom at that point. He told me to come in anyway and he was waiting. He put an IV in me to rehydrate, took stool samples and tested for two types of infection he thought it might be (I later learned neither of which was found). He told me to take charcoal, and gave me a prescription for VCL#3 probiotic. But upon returning home I started passing blood, so I went to the ER that night.

The hospital stay was probably one of the worst experience in my life. After being stabilized, I was pumped full of everything and anything that could kill off any type of life form trying to invade. They said they could not tell me what or if any invaders, because of the urgency with time. Then they pumped me full of morphine, which I protested, because I was not in enough pain to call for that, but they said it was necessary, because they had to do IVs for potassium, which will feel like fire. They then did CAT scans and told me I had UC, and my immune system had caused so much damage, I would most likely not leave the hospital with my colon, and they suspected liver valve damage, so an MRI would be next, and to not be surprised if I would need a liver transplant as well. They had me get all my financial affairs in order and legal papers were given to assign someone to make decisions on my behalf. I had this weird out-of-body experience at that point and lost any fear connected to the situation.

The first thing I noticed was the body language from the 1st doctor/surgeon that came in to tell me all of the above. Very nice and compassionate, until I started to argue all his answers as not practical. Maybe the morphine made me do that? Nice left the room though, and I could go on and on about the out-of-body thing, but long story short, I had to get outside help from a friend's doctor (the friend did have UC and surgery), so I could get discharged. That hospital has since closed, interestingly enough.

I've poured everything into research from that point forward. Joined the SCD lifestyle diet thing at first (didn't help); did elimination diets (didn't help because it took too long); took classes on PubMed; took classes from DrTalks....the list is long. My naturopath, luckily, was young and curious, so he ordered more tests I wasn't really aware of, for IgA and IgE. I didn't have either. He kept ordering the IgA tests over time and concluded I was might have IgA Deficiency Disorder, and picked up a parasite that caused my immune system to over react. I did have a light-bulb moment for where and how that could have happened with the parasite, as my job took me to remote locations where I had to eat the food available, and not in the cleanest conditions. So, maybe the IgA is my big issue.

I did see an immunologist and he said nothing can be done about the IgA DD, except antibiotics if sick, and I should be happy about the IgE thing. That told me nothing, so before I had another out-of-body experience I left LOL! So back to PubMed to study IgA DD. I don't get it. I don't get sick, not even as a kid. I was exposed to COVID many times, because I had to do frequent travel to be with my daughter, which was diagnosed stage 4 cancer at the beginning of the pandemic, and I didn't catch COVID then. My life partner caught COVID a few times and I learned my dentist had it at the time he saw me (which he didn't know it at the time), and I didn't catch his. I finally caught COVID last year, after a shoulder injury that required prednisone and PT for six weeks. The PT staff had an outbreak and notified me, so I tested and I showed positive, but the weird thing is, I only had sniffles and no down time. I feel like I only caught it because the prednisone lowered my immune system. I just got back from a cruise in Europe and all the friends we went with caught COVID, but I didn't. So I just don't get the IgA issue, since that supposedly protects mucus membranes. But I hang on to that being the reason I got sick and hospitalized, since I have no other explanations. I did have one other factor involved, which was HUGE stress at the time, with a deadline to complete an environmental review before grant money was lost for a World Heritage site. I was probably sicker than I noticed, because I didn't have the option to stop working. In fact, I finished it on the same day I went into the ER. Recent DNA testing shows I don't have the genes for detoxing, so I bought a sauna and that has made the world of difference too with my health. Glutathione should be a problem for me to produce without those genes; but my doctor sent me to LabCorp for that test, and glutathinone levels were really good.

But right now, I have no UC symptoms (and again, not since leaving the hospital), and my microbiome test from 2021 says: Immune Activity System = Good; Inflammatory Activity = Good; Gut Lining Activity = Good. Digestion is not good though. You are so right about the protein putrefaction, because the microbiome report says my Ammonia Production Pathway is horrible, and it reads like that is due to not digesting the protein. When I first started using my sauna, I would smell strong ammonia in my sweat. I did start taking digest enzymes since about 2022. So on with the experiments, which have become a hobby of sorts since I retired ;-)

 

[TheDogsDid-It!]

I was the same exact thing. He is not dealing with a vitamin A deficiency, he is dealing with a protein, zinc, taurine deficiency.

I agree. Thank you for sharing your insight.

He is a she. Sorry; for the name confusion. Not sure if it makes a difference in lab tests or not, but it seems to at times. "Andy" has always been my nickname for Andrea. Looking at everyone's clever identities, I wish I knew enough about forums at the time I joined to, have used "The-Dogs-Did-It". Something more neutral and frequently used words from my mouth .

BTW, I because of this forum, I did start taurine 2 months ago, because I had never heard of it before, and it clicked when I read about it. So thanks again!

 

[charlie]

He is a she. Sorry; for the name confusion. Not sure if it makes a difference in lab tests or not, but it seems to at times. "Andy" has always been my nickname for Andrea. Looking at everyone's clever identities, I wish I knew enough about forums at the time I joined to, have used "The-Dogs-Did-It". Something more neutral and frequently used words from my mouth

Ooops! :) You can always change your name if you want by clicking here: https://raypeatforum.com/community/account/account-details