Invoking Peat's Name: Ethics Of Promoting Products

[Wagner83]

I was more speaking to the tone of Good and Evil’s posts and on FB and other forums. My bad I should have clarified. Also, I remember your posts about DMSO and that got muddled in. Honestly, I was not meaning you, but it would be nice if members like yourself that post a lot could post balanced perspectives to the attacking posts - just like you did actually.

Ok. I can be annoying for sure lol. If you read the other forum I also posted there (still annoying), someone even accused me of working for haidut, I didn't know that employees paid their boss.

 

[goodandevil]

That is a valid point. But before I release anything I do check with him. His first comments on 11-keto DHT were "looks like it would have similar effects to DHT, daily dose should probably not exceed 2mg-3mg". So, I released it. Later on he seems to have changed the tone a bit, but in later emails he would still sometimes tell people it's OK to use but no more than 2mg. He never explisitly said "this is bad, don't use it". Same with 5a-DHP - his first response to me was not that it would be dangerous but that it would have more specific and brain-centric effects than progesterone, so he prefers progesterone, but thought 5a-DHO was OK to try. So, again, I released it. Later on he sent those studies about breast cancer and if you remember, I pulled it from the store for a week. You suggested to leave it there but put a disclaimer about his comments, which I did. Same with androsterone. My first email to him got that response that it would be good to try for cancer and neurodegenartive disease. So, again, I released it. And again in later emails he changed the tune a bit, but he still responds favorably to some people when they ask him about androsterone and says a few milligrams would probably be safe. And now the 6-keto, which is actually a progesterone and was used as an orally bioavailable progesterone in the 1950s and 1960s. I again asked him before I released it and he seemed to not be against it. So, so far there is nothing I have released that has not been sent to him beforehand to ask his opinion.
That being said, you do have a point, as I acknowledged above. What I can do is add a disclaimer to every new such product saying something along the lines of "The fact that this post and product description contains quotes from Ray Peat does not mean he endorses/approves of this product. Please seek his opinion independently on any chemical, solvent, ingredient, etc that you may have concerns/questions about".
How's that? Would that make it better or less biased?

I would prefer if you kept ray's name out of things that he hasn't explicitly recommended for supplementation.

 

[goodandevil]

I was more speaking to the tone of Good and Evil’s posts and on FB and other forums. My bad I should have clarified. Also, I remember your posts about DMSO and that got muddled in. Honestly, I was not meaning you, but it would be nice if members like yourself that post a lot could post balanced perspectives to the attacking posts - just like you did actually.

Im not even on facebook. And as to my tone, i think you're the type of person that would happily run a political reeducation camp in communist china; when people have legitimate disagreements you classify them as "negative". You're the kind of person that cares more about the tone than the logical points. The mission is to disseminate ray's work, and if haidut sells these experimental chemicals, it would be better for that mission to distinguish those from the chemicals ray's specifically recommended for supplementation. It would be better for haidut's business as well, in the long run. If someone tries androsterone, has a bad reaction, and judges ray on that, that's one person that's been lost. I dont care what your opinion is about my tone.

 

[haidut]

I would prefer if you kept ray's name out of things that he hasn't explicitly recommended for supplementation.

So, if I ask him about a chemical I am thinking of releasing and he responds, should I keep this out of the thread?

 

[goodandevil]

So, if I ask him about a chemical I am thinking of releasing and he responds, should I keep this out of the thread?

Yeah i think so haidut, unless it's something he's specifically recommended like progesterone. I use your pansterone product, for example, and i have no problem with you quoting him there. I think it would be better for everyone involved to keep ray's and your things seperate and not to quote him for things he hasnt specifically endorsed. Im sure others will ask him and share his quotes on whatever product is in question.

 

[tallglass13]

Haidut is providing all information possible on each product whether it be a ray peat quote, or a medical study... I think he Bends himself backwards to keep us consumers happy for example the solvents and DMSO and such... If he has got information about the product , I want to know about it and read it... I'm an adult and I can make my own decision... I don't think anybody should be telling him how to run his business

 

[goodandevil]

Haidut is providing all information possible on each product whether it be a ray peat quote, or a medical study... I think he Bends himself backwards to keep us consumers happy for example the solvents and DMSO and such... If he has got information about the product , I want to know about it and read it... I'm an adult and I can make my own decision... I don't think anybody should be telling him how to run his business

I applaud haidut for removing dmso from most of his products, but it was people voicing concern that led him to do so, for he said:

"And btw, I initially did not want to use tocopherol/MCT purely for logistical reasons as it complicates keeping another solvent in stock and making two versions of a product. But I added it because people on this forum repeatedly asked for it. And I am pretty sure one of those people who kept asking for it is one of the malingerers over at the .ORG website before he got banned."

 

[mogwog]

So, if I ask him about a chemical I am thinking of releasing and he responds, should I keep this out of the thread?

Personally, I would prefer to have this information - Ray peat's answer - along with the product being released. For what it's worth, I've never felt @haidut's quoting of Peat influenced my decision regarding his products in any way. I'd like to think that everyone here possesses enough discernment to come to their own conclusions. And, if I am not mistaken, I also recall coming across many a post where people expressed difficulty in finding quotes from Ray in regards to some of @haidut's released products; so, having this information - perhaps without any emphasis added - makes things easier.

 

[ubiety]

Personally, I would prefer to have this information - Ray peat's answer - along with the product being released. For what it's worth, I've never felt @haidut's quoting of Peat influenced my decision regarding his products in any way. I'd like to think that everyone here possesses enough discernment to come to their own conclusions. And, if I am not mistaken, I also recall coming across many a post where people expressed difficulty in finding quotes from Ray in regards to some of @haidut's released products; so, having this information - perhaps without any emphasis added - makes things easier.

+1

 

[Soren]

As for the whole debate about Ray Peat's answer. More information and open discussion about said information is better than censorship. So if Peat has responded about a product/supplement I would like to hear what he has to say and if I choose I can decide to read up on it further or contact him myself. Seems to me that @haidut is clearly trying to do the right thing.

 

[Blue Jefe]

As for the whole debate about Ray Peat's answer. More information and open discussion about said information is better than censorship. So if Peat has responded about a product/supplement I would like to hear what he has to say and if I choose I can decide to read up on it further or contact him myself. Seems to me that @haidut is clearly trying to do the right thing.

+1

 

[Dolomite]

I must say that I think the complaint against @haidut is bit out of proportion to what has actually been represented. I am one and assume there are others that are completely aware and conscious that these are experimental substances that mostly follow the overall philosophy and direction of Ray’s ideas. Ray does not need to endorse a product for me to want to experiment. I do my own research and decide if this is a substance I want to try. I also see Haidut providing waaay superior quality products to what is out there.

This witch hunt against Haidut and IdeaLabs has gone too far. Look at Good and Evil’s post and the venom he spewed. You also at times have been tough on Haidut. Do you truthfully believe his products have caused more harm than help? Again, research the supplement industry. You guys go to Natural Products Expo East or West and tell me that these large companies have your best interest at heart. I would place my bet on Haidut’s genuineness any day of the week. Go back and read ALL of Haidut’s posts, see his genuine character, and then honestly assess if these continued attacks on him are justified? I have never seen such a cruel post from him as what he receives from opposition.

I agree with @lisaferraro.

The fact is @haidut labels the research and development supplements as R&D. Users should be conducting their own experiments and not blindly trying something whether Dr. Peat or any of the knowledgeable forum members endorse it. There are so many posts about people experiencing bad effects from what I consider common food items let alone supplements.

Keep up the good work, haidut. I enjoy all your posts.

 

[d1d2]

Im sure others will ask him and share his quotes on whatever product is in question.

Then what’s the difference if Haidut adds a verbatim quote from RP or someone else does? Sure, it needs to be objective and transparent. However, I’ve never read RP as endorsing any Idealabs product.

Everyone should do their own research regardless if it’s a research chemical, approach to nutrition or a new electric drill. This issue comes down to transparent, objective datapoints.

We’re all responsible for playing devil’s advocate and to look for contrary evidence, to ensure we make the right decision for ourself. I prefer that all available datapoints are presented, even if there are some that are contrary. Caveat emptor.

 

[Waynish]

Im not even on facebook. And as to my tone, i think you're the type of person that would happily run a political reeducation camp in communist china; when people have legitimate disagreements you classify them as "negative". You're the kind of person that cares more about the tone than the logical points. The mission is to disseminate ray's work, and if haidut sells these experimental chemicals, it would be better for that mission to distinguish those from the chemicals ray's specifically recommended for supplementation. It would be better for haidut's business as well, in the long run. If someone tries androsterone, has a bad reaction, and judges ray on that, that's one person that's been lost. I dont care what your opinion is about my tone.

So far Haidut is merely increasing our freedom. I don't think Haidut said Ray recommended Androsterone. In fact, Ray's work is not a complete end-all be-all. Haidut is promoting an experimentalism, which is a requirement for accurately disseminating scientific work. If, during the rest of Ray's life, we merely stick to theory, then we will not be very successful in applying it.

It's more productive in threads like this to summarize mechanism of action of promoted substance - and why its metabolic pathway is good/bad/ugly. That's where I would focus my application of good and evil, Mr goodandevil :)

 

[Tarmander]

I understand @goodandevil ’s point. He is basically pointing out that haidut is using a human weakness called association to sell his products. Talk about ray, talk about his products, presto. No explicit connection needed, human mind does it implicitly.

I am in vitamin sales and if you think we do not use association to sell product...even the natural industry can get down and dirty.

With that said, haidut should not appease good and evil. There is no morality in handicapping yourself to appease someone else’s dislike of their own human weakness. Appeasement is where businesses die.

 

[Waynish]

I understand @goodandevil ’s point. He is basically pointing out that haidut is using a human weakness called association to sell his products. Talk about ray, talk about his products, presto. No explicit connection needed, human mind does it implicitly.

I am in vitamin sales and if you think we do not use association to sell product...even the natural industry can get down and dirty.

With that said, haidut should not appease good and evil. There is no morality in handicapping yourself to appease someone else’s dislike of their own human weakness. Appeasement is where businesses die.

Of course. But from the point of view that goodandevil claims he likes Ray's work, then why wouldn't he want someone who provides *some of* the pure substances Ray recommends to be allowed to promote? Meanwhile pharmaceutical companies can push some of the worst products with the most powerful - even government mandated - marketing & sales methods. So goodandevil may want to keep his community pure hearted, but I'm encouraging him to tailor his advice more carefully.

 

[Such_Saturation]

This week in "solvent that was great but people are now crying about"

 

[akgrrrl]

I am having such life changing results from this forum, all the GENIUS supps and diet info, was surprised to get on this thread and read the crybabies trying to pick apart semantics.

 

[miki14]

First, ... .
...
Third I want fish oil in dmso.

You cured my depression!

 

[moriwatzi]

@goodandevil Why not start your own thread in the supplements forum? We would have one place for relevant ethical and promotional and similar meta-discussions. And keep this merchant forum for sellers, buyers and potential buyers.