Peat Is Right About Starch

Waremu

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I generally do best without starch as well. However, white rice is the exception, if cooked correctly, in the traditional way (cook by boiling it in water and then straining it, which also dramatically lowers any arsenic which may be in the rice). Brown rice contains some of the PUFA and problematic fibers which have shown to act as DHT inhibitors, etc. White rice, from what I have seen, lack these things for the most part, since the bran/fiber is stripped away. I would say white rice is almost as safe as pure sugar. I think the problem people may have with it are mainly 1) not cooking it properly and 2) not eating enough healthy vegetables or other foods with the white rice to slow glucose absorption. The vast majority of my carbs come from fruit, but I will from time to time have a vegetable rich meal with some white rice.

I usually eat plenty of steamed/cooked greens with the white rice when I do consume it. I often make a stew/soup of greens/veggies, which include turnip greens and bok choy (which are very high in calcium) celery, mushrooms, peppers, onions, broccoli, etc. So the fiber from the veggies lower the absorption and keep my appetite and energy sustained longer. I am currently experimenting with no dairy, so the calcium from greens is something I rely on for my calcium, in conjunction to some fruits --- which actually add up to be quite a bit of calcium as well in my daily diet. Just one head of Bok Choy gives me around 800mg of calcium alone.

Potatoes on paper should seem better in some regards because they are higher than rice in nutrients, but white rice probably is still better digestion-wise for many because it contains less overall problematic compounds and is thus easier to digest.

On a side note, while it seems true that potatoes generally have more nutrients, it seems that the idea that white rice is pretty much empty of nutrients is also a misconception. According to Nutrition Data, cooked white jasmine rice still contains a decent amount of folate, thiamine, some pantothenic acid, some magnesium, and quite a bit of selenium, etc. Very low in Iron too. This is for unenriched long grain rice.

Rice, white, long-grain, regular, cooked, unenriched, without salt Nutrition Facts & Calories

To be exact: 2% Thaimin, 3% Niacin, 3% Maganese, 1% folate, 17% selenium, 7% Vitamin B6, 6% Vitamin B5, 5% zinc, 5% copper, 5% magnesium, just over 4g of protein and just over 200 calories. And only 0.1g PUFA. Not bad. One could easily eat some fructose containing food with the rice as many cultures do if they want to not just have glucose from the rice. So all in all, white rice is a decent source of selenium and manganese. If you eat two servings or more like many people who eat rice do, then you're getting a somewhat decent source of magnesium, and some of the other B vitamins and minerals, which especially helps fill in any nutritional gaps when one already eats a decent diet or nutritious foods with the rice meal and needs to fill in a remaining 10-20% of one or more vitamins or minerals.
 
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Wagner83

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Starch consistently KILLS my motivation and libido. Makes me feel incredibly depressive. No idea why.
I think we already discussed this, but I would wonder what do I define as "starch" , even for simple white rice there are many different sorts and effects. Do you tolerate all whole fruits? For example I seem to get bad effects from kiwi fruits while pineapples help digestion. Cooked and then cooled / refrigerated white jasmine rice and buttery potatoes are bad but freshly cooked are ok. Adding fructose, fibers and some fat as well as being hungry and sleeping enough can help.
 
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Birdie

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Im thinking unless you got liposuction you didn't actually lose that much fat that quickly. Water retention would be much more plausible.

Me: If you don't mind me asking a question. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that you think starches are OK or even beneficial to eat, even when Fruit is available. Some are saying that super cooked starch to the point of it being wet and somewhat soggy, has beneficial effects that surpass sucrose. I was wondering if you think that stuff is accurate or is starch harmful and not ideal when compared to fruits and their sugars. Thank you!
Ray Peat: When a non-starchy fruit is available I think it’s always preferable to starch. Alkali-processed corn is the only kind that I’m willing to eat, and seldom that (e.g., corundas made with wood ashes).

Ray Peat: For people with really sensitive intestines or bad bacteria, starch should be zero.
Ray Peat: Starch-grain embolisms can cause brain damage..
Ray Peat: There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.

Ray Peat: In the winter in the US, I use a lot of frozen orange juice concentrate, because good fruit is scarce. When you use refined sugar it’s important to avoid the starchy foods, emphasizing milk, cheese, eggs, fruits, and occasional liver and seafood. Cooked leafy greens and mushrooms should substitute for starchy vegetables.

Ray Peat doesn't see starch as ideal at all, doesn't eat it himself, and makes it clear that people with gut problems ( bacteria overgrowth, etc ) shouldn't eat them, and healthy people with fruit access should choose fruits instead of starches. After reading Rays work for over a decade, and having many conversations with him, its obvious to me that he doesn't see starch as a good food choice in relation to other commonly available foods ( in the U.S )
Whether or not YOU PERSONALLY think starch is ok/healthy or not has nothing to do with Ray Peats opinion on it.
Thanks for the Peat question/answers. Especially appreciated the part about avoiding starchy foods when you are using refined sugar. And the reminder of which foods to emphasize. I had thought he said that oj concentrate was something to avoid now since enzymes have been added to emulsify the pulp. I have some on hand to add to Orange Julias this summer. But I wonder if that was a recent quote with his use of concentrate or if he thinks it's good now. Anyway, thanks again.
 
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tca300

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Thanks for the Peat question/answers. Especially appreciated the part about avoiding starchy foods when you are using refined sugar. And the reminder of which foods to emphasize. I had thought he said that oj concentrate was something to avoid now since enzymes have been added to emulsify the pulp. I have some on hand to add to Orange Julias this summer. But I wonder if that was a recent quote with his use of concentrate or if he thinks it's good now. Anyway, thanks again.
Regarding juice concentrate Ray says " If it doesn’t cause inflammatory symptoms it should be o.k. "
 
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Deleted member 5487

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Coming to this conclusion too, sadly.

I went starch-less for 3 weeks in March for the first time since discovering Peat last year. Digestion improved, no wild mood swings, nose was less stuffy, eyes didn't itch as much, and I wouldn't lose my voice after eating due to bloat and occasional indigestion. Had a mashed potato meal that ended the 3 week trial, and of course I was bloated an hour later. The next morning I had symptoms I thought were always due to seasonal/pet allergies. Upped the mushroom/carrot/cascara and went starch-less again. Symptoms disappeared. All these years I thought I had allergies may have been endotoxin related this whole time.

I come from a pretty athletic/weightlifting background. One drawback I've noticed after removing starch is my desire to weight train decreases. Think I read someone else here experienced this, as well. Wonder what's going on with that.

Yes, the desire to workout is also diminished in my case as well.

This has to do I believe with the loss of muscle glycogen, since I do start to deflate after going no starch, my muscle look much less impressive.

If the muscle is a fast twitch muscle which is like 80% of the body the "Pump and intracellular glycogen" is what makes weightlifters look impressive, this is from higher rep rages or volume found in 8-15 rep ranges. Which is why weightlifter deflate after missing the gym for a week or going really low carb.

Attempt to do reps heavy in the 3-6 range to build more dense type two fiber myofibbilar muscle. Glycogen(starch)/water/creatine independent fibers will look much more impressive at lower bodyfats.
 

benaoao

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All lifts performed in a variety of rep ranges will build the kind of muscle you’re talking about. 20 reps squats aren’t an aerobic exercise. They all build the same fibers. Unless you go for aerobic exercises, that is.
 
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All lifts performed in a variety of rep ranges will build the kind of muscle you’re talking about. 20 reps squats aren’t an aerobic exercise. They all build the same fibers. Unless you go for aerobic exercises, that is.

Myofibril and Sarcoplastic hypertrophy is a theory and not proven.

However fast twitch and slow twitch fiber composition of muscles, is.

Where Traps are 90% slow twitch and the pecs almost entirely fast twitch, will respond differently for better or worse under different rep ranges.

"Bodybuilding training" is under the assumption that the individual is on anabolics with the super physiological ability to recover such volume.

Assuming proper form/knowledge Your average person is much better using lower reps for 80% of there training, preventing lactic acid build,straining ligaments, injury...

A "Pump" is quite literally an inflammed/swelled muscle filled with water and glycogen.

Any lifter knows they lose alot of size after a week or even a few days without lifting, as for going low carb the lack of glycogen/water can shrink the muscle drastically
 

jet9

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I've been applying Peat principles since June/July but the past four days have been the first time cutting out starch (white rice and potatoes have always remained in my diet). I've replaced the calories with more sugar and more saturated fat from cheese, chocolate, eggs, orange juice, milk, fruit and ice cream. Still eating around 300g carbs everyday.

I've noticed over the past couple of months that I've been slowly gaining weight on my belly despite leaning out everywhere else. Decided to cut starch out as an experiment; I can say over the past few days the fat around my belly has melted away, and I've leaned out everywhere else as well. I've had several comments just in the last two days how ripped I look (yes it's made a difference that quickly). My energy levels are also better. I shall continue to monitor my progress and see how this pans out but for those who have weight or energy issues I highly recommend cutting out starch and seeing how you get on.

I'd be very interested to hear of those who have had similar experiences as mine in this albeit short time frame.
Sobieski, how did your experiment go? Are you still starch free?
 

TeaRex14

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I've noticed low fiber starches if very well cooked don't really bother me. This basically means white rice and homemade breads made from refined white flour. Potatoes trigger a massive serotonin surge for me, I can only assume it's due to the fiber irritating my gut. I normally need a good dose of cypro if I'm eating potatoes, so I just avoid them now. Haven't tried legumes in a long time, kind of scared to because they have much more fiber then potatoes. Which sucks because I like a good black bean soup. Might try soaking the beans for an abnormally long time to see if this helps any
 

Owen B

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I see what Travis is saying about the amylopectins being "starch" because they're really more like proteins. Autism is being treated with a certain kind of digestive peptidase enzyme because it's thought that these amylopectin proteins are the cause of the condition.

But I've been researching masa harina lately and have tried a little of it.

Here's an interesting article that gives a lot of local color about it plus a description of what's happening biologically with the breakdown of the starch. Something about a pectin mesh being formed by cross linking. I can't make sense of the process as it's described there. Don't know if that's sufficient or if it's making the pectin issue worse.

Transforming Corn | Cook's Illustrated

Anyone want to weigh in on this?

I've tried it and it's aroma and taste are unbelievably good. But it seems to suppress my temps; it even makes the tips of my fingers cold.
 

Birdie

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Regarding juice concentrate Ray says " If it doesn’t cause inflammatory symptoms it should be o.k. "
I meant to thank you long ago. Thanks!
 

Beastmode

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In the past 3 weeks I've eliminated starch 6 days a week and only have nixtmailized corn based food once per week and I've noticed a few changes:
  1. No cravings for junkfood.
  2. Feel more mobile. I can sit for long periods of time or crawl on the floor with my toddler and not feel like I'm going to pull a muscle.
  3. Significantly improvement in sleep quality. This is with still being awakened by a toddler 3-4 times per night. (BIGGEST SURPRISE)
  4. No feeling like I need a nap midday anymore. (It was never really bad, but surprising how I don't even think about taking a nap at all now.)
  5. Smoother bowel movements.
Cooked mushrooms really seem to help even more when I'm not eating starch.
 

lvysaur

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In the past 3 weeks I've eliminated starch 6 days a week
So what do you actually eat?

My problem is that I can't eat fruit as my sole source of carbs; that's not only expensive but really inconvenient.
 

Beastmode

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So what do you actually eat?

My problem is that I can't eat fruit as my sole source of carbs; that's not only expensive but really inconvenient.

Fruits, juice (OJ - apple,) mexican coke, sugar in my coffee, milk, well cooked mushrooms added to meals really help satiate me, cheese, milk, beef liver, oysters, lamb chops, ground beef, eggs, butter, coconut oil, white fish, etc.

Nothing odd from a Peat standpoint, but through my experimentations, they seem to agree with my system in different combinations.
 

jet9

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Fruits, juice (OJ - apple,) mexican coke, sugar in my coffee, milk, well cooked mushrooms added to meals really help satiate me, cheese, milk, beef liver, oysters, lamb chops, ground beef, eggs, butter, coconut oil, white fish, etc.

Nothing odd from a Peat standpoint, but through my experimentations, they seem to agree with my system in different combinations.
i eat very similar diet, except for not sugar (only fruits), no dairy and no coconut oil, and i often get constipated, any advice you can give?
 

YourUniverse

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rice gives me insomnia, too much fruit makes me lazy and stimulates appetite.

It's really only milk that does the trick - I should re-visit potatoes, just in case.

The right amount of fruit energizes me
 

Beastmode

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i eat very similar diet, except for not sugar (only fruits), no dairy and no coconut oil, and i often get constipated, any advice you can give?

I don't give advice. If you're like me, you're in this for the long haul. I stopped focusing so much on symptoms and pay more attention to how my overall day is. I "zoom in" on "effects" of where my metabolic system is occasionally, but pay more attention to the bigger picture.

May seem counterintuitive, but that's as close to advice I'm qualified to give on here.
 

jet9

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rice gives me insomnia, too much fruit makes me lazy and stimulates appetite.

It's really only milk that does the trick - I should re-visit potatoes, just in case.

The right amount of fruit energizes me
Interesting comment, did you test different kinds of fruits? High fructose (apples, etc), low fructose (cantaloupes, etc)

Also how is your diet look like?
 
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