Peat + Old School Bodybuilding? An Experimental Quest

[OccamzRazer]

I’ve been looking at progesterone + DHEA for a while too now. Going to add some vit E and T3/T4 too I think.
The plan is too take it when I’m done bulking and go into a cut to mitigate the stress from cutting.

Yeah this sounds like a really good anabolic stack!

You could add in some B vitamins or beef liver to round things out. Steve Reeve's top 2 supplements were desiccated liver and wheat germ oil (vit E).

My only question is...should this be taken right when one begins training, or is there any pride/utility/value in maxing things out without such powerful supplemental help first?

In other words...should I take prog + DHEA + T3 beginning now, or see where I am in a few months and then start? Hmm.

 

[OccamzRazer]

So the ideas is to take the steroids to boost your own steroid production? Would you say that is handing in your natty card

That's a good question. Maybe try tons of eggs first? Or brains, as Razvan suggests.

The Anti-Catabolic and Anabolic Hormonal Profile of Eggs | Ray Peat Forum

 

[OccamzRazer]

Exactly, Unlike cold which slows protein/nutrient delievery and blood flow to the "injured" muscles and all the byproducts, heat improves/accelerates it. So sometime after the training. I would be careful tho with sauna after training due to water/mineral loss. Depending on how intense the workout was, sauna may also cause to much stress ontop of the one caused by the workout.

So, do it after training (does not have to be immeiately, could be 1-4 hours later, w/e works for you) and do it aslong as it is comfortable and not stressing. No "powering" trough the burn from the sauna. That is counterproductive. It does not have to be a long session. If no sauna or bath is available, taking a 5-10 minute walk after the workout can work too.

---

There is benefit to switching between cold and heat to widen the blood vessels but after a workout i think this may be to much excessive stress, rather do that on off/regeneration days.

Awesome thnx. Actually do not have access to a sauna right now...so I've just been taking really hot showers and trying to stay warm all the time instead.

I'll try the contrast shower thing on Monday when I'm away from the weights!

Years ago I got into Jack Kruse's work and took cold showers intermittently. Cold thermogenesis, brown fat activation, all that stuff.

All I can say so far is that the "staying warm" concept is way more enjoyable than "staying cold" !

 

[OccamzRazer]

Update 8 (1 out of 2)

AM Workout: the standard 20 squats and 20 pullovers. Decided to switch up the squats by using a much lower weight, narrowing stance, putting a shim under the heels, and truly going A2G - Tom Platz style. Got much more quad activation this way!

The Platz Squat - My New Favorite Squat Accessory (Home Gym Friendly) - YouTube

Also used a lower weight for the pullovers and stretched as far down as possible on each rep.

Felt a little stressed after the workout - didn't drink enough milk beforehand.

I'm veering towards using slightly lower weights in the morning workout in order to really max out each evening.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Finding Favorite Exercises - A Way to Increase Hormesis and Reduce Stress?

In theory, any type of exercise or work that increases physical stress past the point of adaptation should be harmful.

Dr. Peat really shines in this area by bringing to light the downsides of eccentric contraction, lactic acid generation, DNA damage from exercise, etc etc etc.

"Many health conscious people become hypothyroid with a synergistic program of undercooked vegetables, legumes instead of animal proteins, oils instead of butter, carotene instead of vitamin A, and breathless exercise instead of stimulating life." ~ Ray Peat

What if what Dr. Peat is really railing against here is conformity to a paradigm of cookie-cutter health advice and pleasureless workouts?

I think the least stressful, most beneficial type of exercise isn't necessarily the one that induces the least amount of physical stress.

The best type of exercise, IMO, is whatever a person enjoys most!!

Enjoyment/passion/dedication provides a stronger positive force than stress's negative force, in other words.

Speaking of Tom Platz's squatting style above got me thinking. Platz trained in a way that runs contrary to common sense/sanity/Peaty principles etc, yet his passionate mindset seemed to be protective.

Knowing what I know now, I would never train like this: Tom Platz squat Gold's Gym - YouTube

And yet, at 64 (?) years old, Platz still seems to be benefitting from his prior training. He still has a great hairline too lol. Obviously Platz is an N=1 and a genetically-gifted exception to many rules...

...but I still think his experience is a testament to the protective power of doing something one enjoys.

Some of my fav exercises right now include the weighted pullup, weighted dip, and zercher deadlift. And bicycling and walking! I'd bet my work tolerance for these exercises is significantly higher than for other movements.

Conversely, avoiding exercises one doesn't enjoy is probably also be important. I'm well aware of the benefits of sprinting, but I HATE doing sprints...so I stay away from them and still manage to stay lean. Not worth the mental dread IMO!

 

[Ben.]

Something i'd like to add since it is about longevity/health, but i guess you know thoose already ... anyways

• Importance of sleep

I think optimizing this one may even surpases "spot on" diet or excercise. I guess there are supplements to take but im thinking more of what i learned fro shawn stevenson and other sources. Making the bedroom a good place to sleep (no emf if possible, dark, if possible a little colder than the rest of the apartment/house, plants for air filtration/soothing and calming scent) and building a sleeping ritual that signals your body "oh he does this, time for bed". For most people its brushing teeth and putting on a pijama or ... unfortunately for some, watching tv.

I found the gut smashing advice from him realy helpful. Abdominal massages or lymph massages (neck and stomache) work well too and are less intensive than gut smashing/triggerpoint work. Looking at the vagus nerve, the backside of the head/neck works well to with carressing/massaging it for calming down.
In the end w/e fires your parasympathetic nervous system up good to get more relaxed will work, w/e that is for you.

• Importance of breathing and parasympathetic nervous system

This won't be necessarily new but its the whole health benefit basis of buteyko breathing, box breathing or wim hof breathing (actualy tummo originally but w/e).
I first came across this from Steve Maxwell in one of the interviews with him and there is alot of evidence supporting diaphragmatic or stomache breathing to be important and activating the parasympathetic nervous system. Idealy we breath calmy and stressfree as default mode.

He also explains with his experience in Martial Arts how important breathing and exhale holds (tolerance) is. When two people fight and the guy with worse breathing or tolerance cant knock you out quickly enough, will loose due to exhaustion.

Now we know this from any sport aswell that the faster one can regenerate and get out of the sympathetic state induced by training, the better.
So with all of this in mindd, i wonder (if you dont already do or consider it) have you tried to check how quickly your heartrate and breathing calms down after a set or after a workout? Have you considered doing a breathing excercise or some other parasympathetic work after working out?

I see this similar to a wound. The quicker it heals the better of a sign it is that your healthy and functioning optimaly.

You can gauge this too very well with the forearms. They are in my experience a good sign wether or not one is overtraining or that something like bloodflow or metabolism/overall health is compromised. As in, a week ago everything was fine but suddenly you can barely hold yourself on a bar long enough to finish your pullups.

You can also gauge it with going in a sort of handstand (or simply leaning forward enough). It being intensily bad/annyoing and feeling like your head is exploding from all the blood and getting all red in the head and eyes should not be baseline either and is a good indicator too for assessing health/postural issues affecting bloodflow.

---

I'll stop adding to much needless text to your log, will observe your progress. My health is improving and i cant way to get realy into strength training again. A passion of mine tbh.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Update 8 (2 out of 2)

PM Workout: push day. Dumbbell press PR, weighted dip PR, more weighted dips, skullcrushers. Felt good!

Nutrition: 4600+ calories. Date + coconut rolls really coming in handy.

Definitely gaining muscle now. The daily squats are really restructuring my legs!

 

[David90]

Unsure if needed...but it's unlikely to hurt! Very difficult to overtrain your core.

The best Silver Era bodybuilders lifted heavy free weights AND specifically trained abs.

Reg Park was the 2nd guy in history to record a bench press of 500 pounds, but still chose to do some core work.

Right. Its Unlikely to hurt. Besides that, for Aesthetics Purposes it would me sense to Train the Abs/Core. Doesn't have to be much either. 10 Sets per Week should be enough. I also find my Deadlift MUCH stronger with Trained Abs, then without.

I definitely think this is a key point. I always feel off if I don't get in two decent walks a day. I think it's to do with keeping the lymphatic system moving. Eating and sitting all day with just a workout as movement is not a good recipe!

Love this time of the year in the UK as the mornings are so light now to get out and about early with the dog.

Definently a good Idea. At my Working Place i have around 15000-25000 Steps per Day (according to App) so i don't personally do long Walks. But for someone that has a Desk Job or Sitting Most of Time, it would make sense.

Exactly, Unlike cold which slows protein/nutrient delievery and blood flow to the "injured" muscles and all the byproducts, heat improves/accelerates it. So sometime after the training. I would be careful tho with sauna after training due to water/mineral loss. Depending on how intense the workout was, sauna may also cause to much stress ontop of the one caused by the workout.

So, do it after training (does not have to be immeiately, could be 1-4 hours later, w/e works for you) and do it aslong as it is comfortable and not stressing. No "powering" trough the burn from the sauna. That is counterproductive. It does not have to be a long session. If no sauna or bath is available, taking a 5-10 minute walk after the workout can work too.

---

There is benefit to switching between cold and heat to widen the blood vessels but after a workout i think this may be to much excessive stress, rather do that on off/regeneration days.

Makes Total sense. I always used Sauna after Workout (1-2 Rounds for 5-10 Minutes).

Same thoughts. With all the hormone distruptive stressors from the environment, sperm count and testosterone levels declining in men we will have to get to a point where we have to counteract that.
You’re starting to see that already but in kind of a crue way, as a lot of men are hopping on TRT.
Eventually we’ll get really good at it and everyone can be a 1200 T 6’9 gigachad... but that might still be out for a while.

I’ve been looking at progesterone + DHEA for a while too now. Going to add some vit E and T3/T4 too I think.
The plan is too take it when I’m done bulking and go into a cut to mitigate the stress from cutting.

Totally Right. Since Todays World has so many Hormonal Disruptors (BPA) and Stressors from the Environment, it's a No-Brainer to boost Testosterone Naturally. I also think Around 700-1000 ng/dl Total Testosteron is a good Range to shoot for.

Update 8 (2 out of 2)

PM Workout: push day. Dumbbell press PR, weighted dip PR, more weighted dips, skullcrushers. Felt good!

Nutrition: 4600+ calories. Date + coconut rolls really coming in handy.

Definitely gaining muscle now. The daily squats are really restructuring my legs!

Daily Squats will indeed restructing your Legs. As High Frequency in General will (if Volume and Intensity is matched). I personally enjoy also Weighted Pullups very much, as well as Deadlifts and Barbell Hip Thrusts.

 

[David90]

All roads lead to high androgens.
I saw a guy's blood tests. He had supra-physiological levels of free Testosterone. He never touched hormones or steroids. Yet he was fat! However, he is a player and dates and beds lots of attractive women.
I honestly think that is the sole reason for his success.

Success on the sexual marketplace guarantees high androgens.

I see this Many Times in our Country too.
Although i think it has rather to do with Women wanting to be ''the prettier part'' (They want to be the More Attractive Part of the Two). But your Explanation could also make sense. I also see guys over here that are Fat but have sick (Lumberjack-Like) Beards. I Think it's a Combination of High Androgens and High Estrogen perhaps (?). Maybe i'm Wrong.

I also think it could be like a Feedback-Loop. If you have reasonably good Androgens and Success on the Marketplace, it puts your Androgens maybe a bit higher (Increased T and Dopamine).

Or do high androgens determine success in the sexual marketplace? Wonder which direction these 2 things typically flow. Kind of impressive that the guy managed what he did being fat, especially with the high standards of today's day and age.

I've never really been the hookup type, much to the disappointment of certain biological instincts...

Your missing Out. I was also not the Hookup Type but got hooked (see what i did there?.... ) Three Years ago.
There was a lucky streak that has go on and on. Every Time i was Clubbing or Dating someone it has ended mostly in (a Longer Time-) Hookup. Two of the Times i almost got in a Relationship from that. So Never say never....

I was Reading about Natural Testosterone Increasing (from the Anabolicmen Website and the Former Forum) since i was 20 Years old. It has payed out as i got older.

Random musing on relationships and hairloss

Short story from the gym this morning. When I got there two guys were on the treadmills, which is kind of rare for the gym I go to, as it's more of a lifter's type of place.

Both the treadmill guys looked to be in their 30s, and both were balding badly.

One of the guys was talking dejectedly about his wife. I've noticed this from lots of balding men - they are in relationships with domineering women!

Men who are aloof and 'alpha' enough to command respect from their wives, on the other hand, seem to retain good hair. One of my great uncles is 70 and still has an intact hairline. Very stoic - yet funny - alpha dude.

I'm not saying that domineering wives are the sole cause of hair loss or anything. But I think bad relationships might be both a cause and effect of the same hormonal problems seen with balding.

Anyways...just a thought. Anyone else noticed this?

I'm out of bad relationships now and my hair loss has completely stopped. It might even be slowly reversing.

Domineering Women CAN also be a Sign of High Serotonin. Prolactin & Estrogen perhaps. Women should be (in my Personal Perspective) Cute, Playful & Feminine. If she is acting TOO Manly there COULD be a Hormonal Imbalance there (like mentioned above). Just my 2 Cents.

But yeah, it can take really a toll on Stress Levels. I had also one Bad Short Relationship (that came out of a Hookup) in the Past. She was always Instagramming and grizzled on my Character and Behavior since the Start. She even wanted me to Stop my Workouts forever for a lame Reason. And she was also Writing via Facebook Messenger with one of my Male Friends which i think, he tried to pinch her out from me, since he knowed WAY to many Personal Relationship Details from my Perspective.

Short Time after, we were going Part Ways (was the Best for Both Sides). Funny Thing was, One Month later i got in the next Affair by coincidence.....

 

[Jonnie]

Yeah this sounds like a really good anabolic stack!

You could add in some B vitamins or beef liver to round things out. Steve Reeve's top 2 supplements were desiccated liver and wheat germ oil (vit E).

My only question is...should this be taken right when one begins training, or is there any pride/utility/value in maxing things out without such powerful supplemental help first?

In other words...should I take prog + DHEA + T3 beginning now, or see where I am in a few months and then start? Hmm.

Good question. In my view I‘d say it really depends on your physiological state right now. If you’re experiencing too much stress/fatigue and whatnot, then you might want to tip into that regenerative/androgenic state more by using such a stack.
If you’re feeling absolutely great then maybe just see where you can go with good food and good nourishment/relaxation first before adding.

In my case II‘ve been training without because I wanted to do everything I can before using hormones, I guess it’s also a pride thing because I want to get this weight naturally.
BTW, can one still claim natty after using progesterone? It’s not an anabolic steroid I think... What is natty even? Vit. D is a corticosteroid. We’re already exposed to so many synthetic stressors. Are there different gradations of being natty? Am I sounding like Connor Murphy right now?
In any case I’ll be trying it out sooner or later as my hairline says it needs it.

 

[Jonnie]

So the ideas is to take the steroids to boost your own steroid production? Would you say that is handing in your natty card

That’s a great question, and one of the reasons I haven’t used it yet. What If I won’t be able to look at myself in the mirror and say “full natty brah“?

In all seriousness vitamin D is a corticosteroid right? Yet it has catabolic effects. Progesterone is a progestogen but also has catabolic effects right?
If one eats a chicken neck with thyroid gland in it, is he no longer natty because of exougenous hormones?

I really don’t know the answer. I think in the future no one is going to be “natty”. Humans always try to make refine nature and make it their own.

We’re probably “not natty” anymore now, except we went the estrogenic route because of all the synthetic endocrine disruptive stressors in the environment and whatnot.

 

[AndrogenicJB]

Y

That’s a great question, and one of the reasons I haven’t used it yet. What If I won’t be able to look at myself in the mirror and say “full natty brah“?

In all seriousness vitamin D is a corticosteroid right? Yet it has catabolic effects. Progesterone is a progestogen but also has catabolic effects right?
If one eats a chicken neck with thyroid gland in it, is he no longer natty because of exougenous hormones?

I really don’t know the answer. I think in the future no one is going to be “natty”. Humans always try to make refine nature and make it their own.

We’re probably “not natty” anymore now, except we went the estrogenic route because of all the synthetic endocrine disruptive stressors in the environment and whatnot.

You make a good point, I am still undecided

 

[Jonnie]

I see this Many Times in our Country too.
Although i think it has rather to do with Women wanting to be ''the prettier part'' (They want to be the More Attractive Part of the Two). But your Explanation could also make sense. I also see guys over here that are Fat but have sick (Lumberjack-Like) Beards. I Think it's a Combination of High Androgens and High Estrogen perhaps (?). Maybe i'm Wrong.

I also think it could be like a Feedback-Loop. If you have reasonably good Androgens and Success on the Marketplace, it puts your Androgens maybe a bit higher (Increased T and Dopamine).



Your missing Out. I was also not the Hookup Type but got hooked (see what i did there?.... ) Three Years ago.
There was a lucky streak that has go on and on. Every Time i was Clubbing or Dating someone it has ended mostly in (a Longer Time-) Hookup. Two of the Times i almost got in a Relationship from that. So Never say never....

I was Reading about Natural Testosterone Increasing (from the Anabolicmen Website and the Former Forum) since i was 20 Years old. It has payed out as i got older.


Domineering Women CAN also be a Sign of High Serotonin. Prolactin & Estrogen perhaps. Women should be (in my Personal Perspective) Cute, Playful & Feminine. If she is acting TOO Manly there COULD be a Hormonal Imbalance there (like mentioned above). Just my 2 Cents.

But yeah, it can take really a toll on Stress Levels. I had also one Bad Short Relationship (that came out of a Hookup) in the Past. She was always Instagramming and grizzled on my Character and Behavior since the Start. She even wanted me to Stop my Workouts forever for a lame Reason. And she was also Writing via Facebook Messenger with one of my Male Friends which i think, he tried to pinch her out from me, since he knowed WAY to many Personal Relationship Details from my Perspective.

Short Time after, we were going Part Ways (was the Best for Both Sides). Funny Thing was, One Month later i got in the next Affair by coincidence.....

Gonna play devil’s advocate here:

Women don’t want to be ”the prettier part”. They want to be the cute feminine little girlie girl, this usually requires a taller handsome chad.

Maybe those balding cardio men have domineering women because they are bald, unattractive and low androgen.
If a man has hair and is chad, the women won’t dare to be domineering because she doesn’t want to lose him as she potentially doesn’t have better options.

The hookup stuff is a waste of time if you’re not chad. I tried it for a few years, it’s just too rough if you’re not chad and don’t like slapping with whales.

I do believe regular sex with women will raise your androgens more compared to masturbation.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Something i'd like to add since it is about longevity/health, but i guess you know thoose already ... anyways

• Importance of sleep

I think optimizing this one may even surpases "spot on" diet or excercise. I guess there are supplements to take but im thinking more of what i learned fro shawn stevenson and other sources. Making the bedroom a good place to sleep (no emf if possible, dark, if possible a little colder than the rest of the apartment/house, plants for air filtration/soothing and calming scent) and building a sleeping ritual that signals your body "oh he does this, time for bed". For most people its brushing teeth and putting on a pijama or ... unfortunately for some, watching tv.

I found the gut smashing advice from him realy helpful. Abdominal massages or lymph massages (neck and stomache) work well too and are less intensive than gut smashing/triggerpoint work. Looking at the vagus nerve, the backside of the head/neck works well to with carressing/massaging it for calming down.
In the end w/e fires your parasympathetic nervous system up good to get more relaxed will work, w/e that is for you.

• Importance of breathing and parasympathetic nervous system

This won't be necessarily new but its the whole health benefit basis of buteyko breathing, box breathing or wim hof breathing (actualy tummo originally but w/e).
I first came across this from Steve Maxwell in one of the interviews with him and there is alot of evidence supporting diaphragmatic or stomache breathing to be important and activating the parasympathetic nervous system. Idealy we breath calmy and stressfree as default mode.

He also explains with his experience in Martial Arts how important breathing and exhale holds (tolerance) is. When two people fight and the guy with worse breathing or tolerance cant knock you out quickly enough, will loose due to exhaustion.

Now we know this from any sport aswell that the faster one can regenerate and get out of the sympathetic state induced by training, the better.
So with all of this in mindd, i wonder (if you dont already do or consider it) have you tried to check how quickly your heartrate and breathing calms down after a set or after a workout? Have you considered doing a breathing excercise or some other parasympathetic work after working out?

I see this similar to a wound. The quicker it heals the better of a sign it is that your healthy and functioning optimaly.

You can gauge this too very well with the forearms. They are in my experience a good sign wether or not one is overtraining or that something like bloodflow or metabolism/overall health is compromised. As in, a week ago everything was fine but suddenly you can barely hold yourself on a bar long enough to finish your pullups.

You can also gauge it with going in a sort of handstand (or simply leaning forward enough). It being intensily bad/annyoing and feeling like your head is exploding from all the blood and getting all red in the head and eyes should not be baseline either and is a good indicator too for assessing health/postural issues affecting bloodflow.

---

I'll stop adding to much needless text to your log, will observe your progress. My health is improving and i cant way to get realy into strength training again. A passion of mine tbh.

Thanks for the ideas! It's not really 'needless text,' it's helpful!

I've only been sleeping ~7 hours/night for the past few days...and it's definitely not compatible with training 6 days/week. Going to aim for 10 hours of sleep from here on out and see how I feel.

Also, you're bringing my attention to the importance of breathing here. Good stuff! Ever since using red light each day, proper breathing seems to come naturally to me. But I'll play around with doing some breathing exercises after my next workout.

Breathing also seems to be vital for max CNS activation - I think it was "Dr. Squat" who talked about lifters either being 'on' [ie lifting] or 'off' [ie deeply relaxed].

I can say that my HR and breath return to normal very quickly after each set. When I do the 20 rep squats, my breath is usually back to normal within maybe a minute or two. Years of endurance training to thank for that lol.

Forearms...so you're saying that grip strength is the first thing to go when overtraining begins? Very interesting. I'll be on the lookout for this.

Finally, best wishes as you get healthier and get back into training!

 

[OccamzRazer]

Right. Its Unlikely to hurt. Besides that, for Aesthetics Purposes it would me sense to Train the Abs/Core. Doesn't have to be much either. 10 Sets per Week should be enough. I also find my Deadlift MUCH stronger with Trained Abs, then without.

Interesting that core stuff helped your deadlift! I've been playing around with a little bit of weighted core work during the pullover portion of workouts. It actually feels pretty good.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Daily Squats will indeed restructing your Legs. As High Frequency in General will (if Volume and Intensity is matched). I personally enjoy also Weighted Pullups very much, as well as Deadlifts and Barbell Hip Thrusts.

Yeah the weighted pullups are awesome.

Have you tried zercher deadlifts? Just got into them and love them. Very much a full body lift!

 

[OccamzRazer]

We’re probably “not natty” anymore now, except we went the estrogenic route because of all the synthetic endocrine disruptive stressors in the environment and whatnot.

Never thought of it this way!

I'm leaning towards trying CortiNon and/or StressNon sooner rather than later.

 

[OccamzRazer]

The hookup stuff is a waste of time if you’re not chad. I tried it for a few years, it’s just too rough if you’re not chad and don’t like slapping with whales.

I do believe regular sex with women will raise your androgens more compared to masturbation.

Interesting. At this point in life, at least, hooking up with girls wouldn't be all that difficult.

It's largely just a question of morals. Is hooking up damaging to one's conscience? I think it can be.

But then there are also the very real hormonal benefits...hm.

Maybe having several open relationships would be best, purely from the standpoint of optimizing T? Not sure.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

BTW, can one still claim natty after using progesterone? It’s not an anabolic steroid I think... What is natty even?

Technically, by taking steroid hormones we are not natty anymore. But practically we are.
When I got Pansterone for the first time, I legit though it's gonna make me put on an extra 20 lbs of muscle in 6 months.
As long as what you're taking isn't turning your physique into something that is not natty achievable, you can claim natty.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Maybe having several open relationships would be best, purely from the standpoint of optimizing T? Not sure.

I honestly wondered about it and think that is the case. And I know at least 2 cases that confirm this.
I have been with more women sexually this year than I've ever been before in my life. Very curious how my T levels will look once I test them again.