Proposed Theory: Dandruff Is A Skin Biome Imbalance. Ways To Address Proposed

[L_C]

I am back to report on some serious discoveries and experiences.

my azelaic acid remedy for dandruff did not last long. I had to reapply ever 24 hours and full transparency the fact Istill had flakes even tho not cosmetically noticeable was a serious issue for me.

but what also frusturated me more than anything was that my beard would flake too. These flakes were all nothing but speck dust size. I mean you could mistake it for dust if it weren't for the yellow white color.

obviously i believe this an internal issue. I tried high dose retinol acetate. I tried zinc. I tried b6. I tried pufa. I tried vitamin D.

on the topical front i tried vinegar. Iodine. Azelaic acid. Ketocanazole. Miconazole. Head and shoulders. Tea tree oil.

nothing worked. But i dont give up. No matter how long its taken me to trial all this.

on January 18 i got strep (some throat bacterial infection. Other strains are very possible besides strep). Self diagnosed.

So i popped amoxycillin for a self prescribed 7 day dose. Within 24 hours my super super severe throat started to disappear. I went from barely breathing through my mouth to almost asymptomatic.

From the 18-21st i was on antibiotics 2 times a day. My scalp seemed even worse. Way more buildup and flaking on my beard.

but on the 22nd due to a study i read Zinc Pyrithione Inhibits Yeast Growth through Copper Influx and Inactivation of Iron-Sulfur Proteins

i applied copper peptides to my scalp plus zinc pyrthione conditioner together.

let me tell you guys nothing and i mean nothing.. nothing nothing nothing has worked better than this. My scalp and beard dont flake. My hair shedding dropped off dramatically.

today marks 5-6 days off antibiotics and i can go 48 hours with no flaking or dandruff. I am too scared to go longer. But wow. Is it too soon to say this is it. Maybe. But the situation is evolving! Will update

Nice. Glad you found something that works for you. Keep us posted if this works long term or not. In my case, I believe it was internally. Anything fermented like yogurt, kefir, cultured meats was giving me crazy dandruff and shedding. I still do see flakes and waiting to see if that disappears with diet adjustments. Luckily, itching and shedding is gone. Also, I still somewhat feel that living in a dry climate aids into flakes formation since I see lot of people here with flakes.

 

[BearWithMe]

I am back to report on some serious discoveries and experiences.

my azelaic acid remedy for dandruff did not last long. I had to reapply ever 24 hours and full transparency the fact Istill had flakes even tho not cosmetically noticeable was a serious issue for me.

but what also frusturated me more than anything was that my beard would flake too. These flakes were all nothing but speck dust size. I mean you could mistake it for dust if it weren't for the yellow white color.

obviously i believe this an internal issue. I tried high dose retinol acetate. I tried zinc. I tried b6. I tried pufa. I tried vitamin D.

on the topical front i tried vinegar. Iodine. Azelaic acid. Ketocanazole. Miconazole. Head and shoulders. Tea tree oil.

nothing worked. But i dont give up. No matter how long its taken me to trial all this.

on January 18 i got strep (some throat bacterial infection. Other strains are very possible besides strep). Self diagnosed.

So i popped amoxycillin for a self prescribed 7 day dose. Within 24 hours my super super severe throat started to disappear. I went from barely breathing through my mouth to almost asymptomatic.

From the 18-21st i was on antibiotics 2 times a day. My scalp seemed even worse. Way more buildup and flaking on my beard.

but on the 22nd due to a study i read Zinc Pyrithione Inhibits Yeast Growth through Copper Influx and Inactivation of Iron-Sulfur Proteins

i applied copper peptides to my scalp plus zinc pyrthione conditioner together.

let me tell you guys nothing and i mean nothing.. nothing nothing nothing has worked better than this. My scalp and beard dont flake. My hair shedding dropped off dramatically.

today marks 5-6 days off antibiotics and i can go 48 hours with no flaking or dandruff. I am too scared to go longer. But wow. Is it too soon to say this is it. Maybe. But the situation is evolving! Will update

Wow! That's quite a testament.

I need to get some Zinc Pyrithione asap. Many thanks for this post!

 

[GorillaHead]

Wow! I need to get some Zinc Pyrithione asap. Many thanks for this post!

U need copper peptides topically imo. Zinc pyrthione by itself did nothing at all

 

[BearWithMe]

U need copper peptides topically imo. Zinc pyrthione by itself did nothing at all

What copper peptides product have you used?

 

[BearWithMe]

Is there any possibility that you might be copper deficient?

I know for sure that I have copper metabolism problem, and my symptoms are pretty much identical to yours.

Given the fact that topical copper helped you so much...

 

[not_James_Bond]

Watching

@johnwester130 @mrchibbs

 

[theantagonist]

80% of my dandruff cleared up by thyroid & eating sugar. Not sure what's the mechanism of action is. Just my experience.

 

[GorillaHead]

Is there any possibility that you might be copper deficient?

I know for sure that I have copper metabolism problem, and my symptoms are pretty much identical to yours.

Given the fact that topical copper helped you so much...

Copper regulation i think is my issue

80% of my dandruff cleared up by thyroid & eating sugar. Not sure what's the mechanism of action is. Just my experience.

see 80% thats not good enough. Your symptom has reduced. But the cause is still there just not manifesting as bad.

think of it like this. Two people both got strep one has a diff immune system than the other so the reaction for one is more severe than the other.

but the cause has not been resolved. Bacteria. Its been 48 hours since ive put anything on my hair. Dandruff non existent. Not a single flake falls like magic. Going to do another 24 without a shower and see how well my scalp holds up

 

[johnwester130]

Today I am going to discuss my struggle with dandruff, everything I have tried, the mechanism perhaps behind one main cause and a way to address it.


Of all the ailments I have dealt with (and believe me I have dealt with so many) Dandruff was one of the most stubborn issues I seemed to suffer from.

Main Symptoms: I had two varying symptoms that came and go, sometimes when I scratched my hairline scalp I would get gunk build up like a waxy slightly textured substance, and other times I would not get this but if I ran my hands thru my hair over and over a white light LED screen I would see very very small flakes keep falling off, I could run my hands through my hair 30 times and still flakes kept coming off like a Blizzard.

All the things I tried religiously with moderate short acting success anywhere from 30 mins to 24 hours.

• Topical Iodine, This was effective at first but its effectiveness would quickly fade and I used high doses mixed in water and washed my hair in it. (this can be dangerous btw, too much iodine is bad for the thyroid) This gave me moderate relief for 24 hours and scalp acne.
• Head and Should Zinc Pyrthione, this was practically never effective, I mean if it was it was at best for an hour or two.
• Topical Ketoconazole Shampoo this was moderately effective but it reduced dandruff better than iodine but it didnt last more than 12 hours
• Sun Light was by far the most effective at eliminating dandruff but the effective was very short after 6 hours of no more sun exposure my dandruff would return.
• High dose retinol acetate , still had flaking but the retinol removed the gunk wax like substance.

So the common belief on this forum is either you need vitamin A or you have a fungal infection on your scalp.
specifically caused by Malassezia.

One issue I had with these beliefs was it made no sense for a human to need massive doses of vitamin a unattainable through diet by any means as a solution for dandruff. My experience with vitamin A pertaining to dandruff could probably be best explained by the fact retinol dryed me out and this meant the flaking could not mix in with the wax like substance excreted through my sebaceous glands.

The other issues I had was with how the scientific community wanted to blame one fungi for dandruff when that dandruff is also on human scalps without dandruff its apart of the skin biome.

That's when it hit me. Our skin has a biome of its own and we are going about these issues all the wrong way.
I already had a good amount of knowledge on biomes and addressing them is different for everyone as the causes can vary.
(For those who dont know my first ailment ever was Ulcerative Colitis and it consumed years of my life towards research and this forum WAS a significant part of why I am today symptom free with BETTER digestion pre diagnosis and all without a single pharmaceutical or herb)

I did lots of research on seborrheic dermatitis as this was considered highly related to dandruff and people believe that dandruff many people experience is a very minor form of this condition. This led me to findings of a Japanese study that showed dandruff severity had a strong correlation with the imbalance of two skin bacteria and not dandruff at all.

So I started theorizing an idea:


Common Dandruff

Presentation: flaking, white/yellow like waxy substance build on scalp

Cause: Imbalance of skin biome caused by environmental and internal diet factors.

Cause explained: If the Japanese study holds water, which I absolutely believe it does. Then killing off the normal fungi on our scalp is probably making our dandruff even worse! Why? Malassezia specifically excretes Azelaic Acid this is quite an amazing substance used in rosacea effectively and IT is PERSONALLY very effective for acne.

This substance is very good at killing bacteria but also very good at modulating the skin biome. If Malesszia is not outputting this or its not there to output it, its likely you will have bacteria take over and as a result you end up with dandruff.

Why do anti fungal treatments sometimes help or work? Because they too have anti bacterial properties and modulate the biome.

I believe the focus on killing malassizia is actually very detrimental. You want this fungi and you want acting normally.

Treatment/Cure: 2-3 Azelaic Acid washes and increased saturated fat consumption, avoid pufa

Treatment explained: My focus is to reset the skin biome and support it, rather then destroy it. Research shows that Malassezia consumes and prefers saturated fatty acids, when consumed the fungi proliferate normally, but when it consumes PUFA it outputs inflammatory substances and can lead to hyperproliferation

Anecdotally I have read about people solving their dandruff with vitamin e and or even stopping the consumption of pufa. I did also read about one guy who tried everything and the only thing that fixed it was a specific anti biotic but once he got off it came back with a vengeance.

I theorized that perhaps when the fungi doesnt get the right food it no longer outputs azelaic acid and with shampoos these days full of PUFA and anti fungal substances this would lead to severe skin biome dysregulation. Azelaic acid keeps the biome in check.

These organisms all work together in balance to provide the optimal PH for our skin.

Today marks 5 days after I washed my hair with 10% Azelaic acid twice, my dandruff situation has never been better! When I scratch my scalp I GET ZERO buildup and when I run my hands through my hair after the 3rd or 4th time, I no longer see flakes. The amount of flakes that do fall are no where near cosmetically noticeable. I also introduced a teaspoon of coconut oil a day to feed the biome appropriately. I stopped using harsh shampoo with antibacterial and anti fungal substances and Started using organic shampoo with some coconut oil in them, not too much. I reduced how much shampoo I use, I usually slap on a huge handful.

I continue to scratch my scalp daily to see if the situation changes. I am beyond happy at this success.

THIS MAY NOT WORK FOR YOU! Science is very complex and many different causes can manifest in similar ways. I wish yall the best!

Characterization of the major bacterial-fungal populations colonizing dandruff scalps in Shanghai, China, shows microbial disequilibrium - PubMed

it can originate from your digestive tract,

antibiotics could work

 

[GorillaHead]

it can originate from your digestive tract,

antibiotics could work

maybe but ive been on antibiotics before in my life powerful ones and ive had this dandruff for probably a decade and now its finally gone. So i have doubt the antibiotics were the solution. Especially cause it wasnt until i after i applied copper topically did things finally resolve. Its been now almost 3 days since application zero dandruff.

 

[BearWithMe]

Have you tried to find and fix the underlying reasons for your copper regulation issues? There are several things that are needed for proper copper metabolism, retinol being one of them

 

[HumanLife]

but on the 22nd due to a study i read Zinc Pyrithione Inhibits Yeast Growth through Copper Influx and Inactivation of Iron-Sulfur Proteins
i applied copper peptides to my scalp plus zinc pyrthione conditioner together.

let me tell you guys nothing and i mean nothing.. nothing nothing nothing has worked better than this. My scalp and beard dont flake. My hair shedding dropped off dramatically.

today marks 5-6 days off antibiotics and i can go 48 hours with no flaking or dandruff. I am too scared to go longer. But wow. Is it too soon to say this is it. Maybe. But the situation is evolving! Will update

Wow!

Great job - may I ask what brands you used?

I don't always have dandruff or the like. Around the time I eat liver, it seems to decrease, but come back up at another time later.

 

[BearWithMe]

Wow!

Great job - may I ask what brands you used?

I don't always have dandruff or the like. Around the time I eat liver, it seems to decrease, but come back up at another time later.

Interesting, liver is very high in copper. Are you sometimes eating other copper-rich foods?

 

[HumanLife]

Interesting, liver is very high in copper. Are you sometimes eating other copper-rich foods?

A Dark Chcolate bar every week or two, spread throughout the week.

 

[BearWithMe]

A Dark Chcolate bar every week or two, spread throughout the week.

Do you feel like it is helping with your darndruff too?

 

[GorillaHead]

Isnt liver copper II. And chocolate copper I. I know its been debated but there is no clear answer in which is better

Wow!

Great job - may I ask what brands you used?

I don't always have dandruff or the like. Around the time I eat liver, it seems to decrease, but come back up at another time later.

I used folligen cream

Have you tried to find and fix the underlying reasons for your copper regulation issues? There are several things that are needed for proper copper metabolism, retinol being one of them

First i am semi anti vitamin A. Second i think there is way more to copper regulation that we dont understand. In terms of copper transports. Look at menkes disease and such

 

[BearWithMe]

First i am semi anti vitamin A. Second i think there is way more to copper regulation that we dont understand. In terms of copper transports. Look at menkes disease and such

I agree that we don't understand copper regulation very well, but there is a good evidence retinol is actually needed for copper metabolism, mostly because retinol-depleted liver stops producing copper transport proteins.

I know you don't want to hear that, but if you depleted yourself of retinol, this might as well be the source of your issues.

And yes, supplemental retinol absolutely 100% is toxic and I'm definitely not advising to supplement retinol.

 

[HumanLife]

Do you feel like it is helping with your darndruff too?

I don't know about the Dark Chocolate, because dandruff isn't something I pay too much attention to. Right now, no matter where I massage my hair and how long I do it, I barely have any flakes falling off, which is a relief considering how bad it can get sometimes. I'm not eating oysters by the way. Last fish I ate was some 200g tuna earlier this week. Haven't washed my hair in 2 days either. The dark chocolate I've been taking is 85%.

@GorillaHead I don't know anything about Copper I or Copper II. Thanks!

 

[GorillaHead]

I agree that we don't understand copper regulation very well, but there is a good evidence retinol is actually needed for copper metabolism, mostly because retinol-depleted liver stops producing copper transport proteins.

I know you don't want to hear that, but if you depleted yourself of retinol, this might as well be the source of your issues.

And yes, supplemental retinol absolutely 100% is toxic and I'm definitely not advising to supplement retinol.

This is a map of apparently vitamin A defeciency with red being the worse. It just so happens that the countries that dont consume much retinol are close to the equator. Also asian countries like japan tend to also not consume much retinol and they have one of the highest average life spans. I am just extrapolating correlations here.

but to me there is a reason cartenoids dont effectively convert to retinol in the body and my beleif is because this Needs to be low in the body.
I think retinol is necessary but not in the levels western countries consume it. Vitamin A is a direct antagonist of vdr and tons of diseases are centered on the premise that vdr is not working in many diseased patients

 

[BearWithMe]

Corelation doesn't imply causality.

There are sooooo many more variables in living close to equator vs living far from equator.

Maybe there is something that outweight the negatives of vitamin A deficiency and extends the lifespan. But that doesn't mean being vitamin A deficient is good for optimal health.

A map of vitamin D (and sunlight) deficiency looks exactly like the one above, just inverted.

I would much rather replete myself of vitamin D than deplete myself of vitamin A.