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When I drink milk I now drink it with BCAA's. It definitely warms me up. It's pretty incredible.
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natedawggh said:Makrosky said:BobbyDukes said:Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.
And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.
One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
If you want to know the answer to this question, just read his papers. They explain.
Makrosky said:HDD said:Makrosky said:BobbyDukes said:Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.
And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.
One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
This thread has a study shedding light on the mechanism of Prozac and other ssri's:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1964
Thanks! Though I find the linked evidence to be clearly insufficient to explain the SSRI issue.
That might do it.BobbyDukes said:I just find it highly suspicious when I hear from Peat (96 interview 'thyroid') that literally millions of Chinese are hypothyroid. I guess that tells a story. Maybe they wouldn't need herbs, if they cut down on the lentils, beans, soy and oils.
natedawggh said:Makrosky said:BobbyDukes said:Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.
And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.
One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
If you want to know the answer to this question, just read his papers. They explain.
haidut said:Makrosky said:HDD said:Makrosky said:BobbyDukes said:Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.
And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.
One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
This thread has a study shedding light on the mechanism of Prozac and other ssri's:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1964
Thanks! Though I find the linked evidence to be clearly insufficient to explain the SSRI issue.
Most SSRI's raise levels of allopregnanolone, which has undisputed antidepressant and neurogenesis effects. You can search Google for "Prozac allopregnanolone". However, it only happens after 2-4 weeks, which may explain why people are much more likely to commit suicide in the first 2 weeks of SSRI use when the only thing they do is raise serotonin. I posted a study recently where even big pharma said the theory is wrong and backwards - i.e. serotonin causes depression. In addition, fluoxetine (Prozac) is a 5-HT2 receptor antagonist, similar to mianserin and cyproheptadine btoh if which are known to be antidepressants. So, at least some of the SSRIs seem to be a mixed bag in terms of serotonin and also have desirable side effects on neurosteroids.
BobbyDukes said:Panax Ginseng raises acetylcholine, nitric oxide, cortisol and, according to one paper, is a 5ht2a agonist (which I don't personally think is bad, as there is nothing more mind numbing than 5ht2a antagonism; story short, I've never come across one drug that boosts my mood, that operates as a 5hta antagonist; they are mostly all anti-psychotics for a reason).
Are you sure Panax is a Peaty herb, for this problem?
I used to take Panax, and always enjoyed taking it (despite it providing horrific anxiety). Since going Peat, however, I notice that the mostly beneficial effects are actually nothing but a stress reaction. It's mechanism works opposite to thyroid, if you consider the things it raises (that I mentioned above).
Try combining Panax with coffee, for fun. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
As for Shilat, I've tried that too, and didn't really notice much. It lowers serotonin?
I've nothing personal against Chinese herbal medicine, or these 'revered' herbs. I just find it highly suspicious when I hear from Peat (96 interview 'thyroid') that literally millions of Chinese are hypothyroid. I guess that tells a story. Maybe they wouldn't need herbs, if they cut down on the lentils, beans, soy and oils.
Makrosky said:natedawggh said:Makrosky said:BobbyDukes said:Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.
And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.
One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
If you want to know the answer to this question, just read his papers. They explain.
Sorry but no, they don't explain it consistently enough.
And it also doesn't explain why there are quite a few studies in pubmed alleviating depressive symptoms with l-tryptophan or 5-htp. There's also heaps of anecdotal evidence for that on naturopathic publications and schools, and hundreds of testimones with good results on internet forums and the like. I also experienced good benefits from it (5-htp) with myself and actually the complete opposite of what Peat claims happens (aggressiveness, learned helplessness, etc.).
Haidut has posted something very interesting related to Prozac and Pregnenolone, but that is strictly related to Prozac, not to serotonin or SSRIs in general.
Makrosky said:haidut said:Makrosky said:HDD said:Makrosky said:BobbyDukes said:Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.
And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.
One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
This thread has a study shedding light on the mechanism of Prozac and other ssri's:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1964
Thanks! Though I find the linked evidence to be clearly insufficient to explain the SSRI issue.
Most SSRI's raise levels of allopregnanolone, which has undisputed antidepressant and neurogenesis effects. You can search Google for "Prozac allopregnanolone". However, it only happens after 2-4 weeks, which may explain why people are much more likely to commit suicide in the first 2 weeks of SSRI use when the only thing they do is raise serotonin. I posted a study recently where even big pharma said the theory is wrong and backwards - i.e. serotonin causes depression. In addition, fluoxetine (Prozac) is a 5-HT2 receptor antagonist, similar to mianserin and cyproheptadine btoh if which are known to be antidepressants. So, at least some of the SSRIs seem to be a mixed bag in terms of serotonin and also have desirable side effects on neurosteroids.
Thanks haidut!!! Very interesting info as always. I didn't know about the existence of allopreg. Apparently it's synthesized after progesterone, not pregnanolone itself.
I am interested in your views on why there's a mass of evidence in pubmed studies, clinical practice and anecdotal stories of direct serotonin precusors to alleviate or heal (while under treatment) depression and anxiety. I mean 5-HTP and L-Tryptophan.
I never found an explanation for that on RP's articles.
HDD said:I observed my son go into depression from adding whey protein, melatonin, and then 5htp in approximately 2 weeks. The 5htp was the straw that broke the camel's back. It killed his appetite which lowered his metabolism. He first stopped leaving the house and then his bedroom. He became light and then noise sensitive. His appetite diminished. He became angry and severely depressed. I have never seen him this depressed. It was awful and frustrating since information online says that it helps anxiety and depression.
haidut said:HDD said:I observed my son go into depression from adding whey protein, melatonin, and then 5htp in approximately 2 weeks. The 5htp was the straw that broke the camel's back. It killed his appetite which lowered his metabolism. He first stopped leaving the house and then his bedroom. He became light and then noise sensitive. His appetite diminished. He became angry and severely depressed. I have never seen him this depressed. It was awful and frustrating since information online says that it helps anxiety and depression.
Yes, tryptophan in compromised people can and usually is very dangerous. But the solution is probably not avoiding it completely but ensuring it stays in the body as tryptophan and as close to the minimum required essential quantity as possible. I am not sure that completely devoid of tryptophan we can maintain proper muscle mass or even survive. For instance, tryptophan seems to be anabolic for muscle and liver and the positive effects from BCAA and glycine seem to be from reduction of toxic trytophan metabolites like serotonin and in effect increasing tryptophan bioavalability.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3357059
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1722997
Btw, caffeine does something very similar - it increases tryptophan and decreases serotonin in the brain.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6207403
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25738401
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20507554
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11445277
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8039038
haidut said:Egg whites are claimed to be 60% anabolic and are a rich source of cystein and glycine, which combined raise glutathione lilke no other natural substance.
jyb said:haidut said:Egg whites are claimed to be 60% anabolic and are a rich source of cystein and glycine, which combined raise glutathione lilke no other natural substance.
I always find odd the fact that egg protein are considered the ultimate useful source of protein and not milk. I would have thought that milk should be the most physiological source since it fuels growth of *humans* since birth. (Unless human milk is more anabolic than cow milk and eggs?!) Clearly milk is extremely anabolic at birth at least - babies don't need to supplement protein to grow like they do.
haidut said:Makrosky said:haidut said:Makrosky said:HDD said:Makrosky said:BobbyDukes said:Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.
And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.
One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
This thread has a study shedding light on the mechanism of Prozac and other ssri's:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1964
Thanks! Though I find the linked evidence to be clearly insufficient to explain the SSRI issue.
Most SSRI's raise levels of allopregnanolone, which has undisputed antidepressant and neurogenesis effects. You can search Google for "Prozac allopregnanolone". However, it only happens after 2-4 weeks, which may explain why people are much more likely to commit suicide in the first 2 weeks of SSRI use when the only thing they do is raise serotonin. I posted a study recently where even big pharma said the theory is wrong and backwards - i.e. serotonin causes depression. In addition, fluoxetine (Prozac) is a 5-HT2 receptor antagonist, similar to mianserin and cyproheptadine btoh if which are known to be antidepressants. So, at least some of the SSRIs seem to be a mixed bag in terms of serotonin and also have desirable side effects on neurosteroids.
Thanks haidut!!! Very interesting info as always. I didn't know about the existence of allopreg. Apparently it's synthesized after progesterone, not pregnanolone itself.
I am interested in your views on why there's a mass of evidence in pubmed studies, clinical practice and anecdotal stories of direct serotonin precusors to alleviate or heal (while under treatment) depression and anxiety. I mean 5-HTP and L-Tryptophan.
I never found an explanation for that on RP's articles.
I just responded to you question as part of another post in the same thread. Tryptophan per se is not very bad but most of its metabolites are very very dangerous and serotonin is just one example. So, Peat may be just being practical and avoiding the whole cascade by simply avoiding tryptophan.
The studies on using free amino acids for cancer show that as little as 500mg tryptophan daily combined with the proper ratio of other essential amino acids is enough to put you in an anabolic state without being pro-carcinogenic as a result of its metabolites. However, we get a lot more than 500mg of tryptophan from our protein and the more we age the more likely we are to metabolize it into one of the toxic byproducts. So, the positive effects of glycine and BCAA are probably due to the inhibition of toxic tryptophan metabolism as well as boosting the thyroid, which tryptophan itself may inhibit.