Social Anxiety Linked To High Serotonin, Not Low

[tara]

youre kind of missing the major point. If something like surgery is necessary and you are an innocent victim, and being cut open with knives and all is necessary, are you really ok with being alive in such a world? is it really benevolent? are you just a slave in a body postponing survival for no real grand meaning? That's what you're saying if you engage in things that are highly non appealing and terrifying, such as taking pills, getting shots, surgery, whatever...any kid knows right away. The thing about not having time, you always have time if you are committed. Life works with you, but if you never tried, that's something you would say. Courage is key, your soul having balls is the key (or whatever equiv for girls is). You never know life until you try, and you never know if its worth being here if you don't put it to the test. Its about signals you send and why. To me living life as an abandoned entity who has to be exposed to awful soul painful things just to survive for some unpredictable and potentially bad future is worthless, and I was never going to send that signal, ever, via taking certain actions

I don't think I'm missing your point, I think I'm disagreeing with it. [edit to add:] The point you have stated, that is. If you meant something different than you said, I may well have missed it. :)

Yes, in general I would rather be alive in an imperfect world than dead, and still have my family in this imperfect world than not.

Fortunately I have not had to have surgery so far, but you never know. I believe some of my people are alive and functioning and enjoying life now because they got surgery and/or medical assistance when they needed it. I'm glad of that and I think they are too.
And I know people who have lost loved ones because they didn't get the help they needed quickly enough, and that can cause a lot of grief, too.

I had assistance with childbirth. Once that's underway, you don't have much time. I am very glad to be alive and to have my child in this world where that was necessary.

One of my children was strongly averse to getting stitches in and out. He needed them though.

So no, sometimes people don't have time - some things can kill quickly, however motivated you are.

If someone would rather die than get lifesaving help, I would be considering if they are depressed, or at least badly discouraged about life.

 

[Elron]

Whenever I've taken LSD I've noticed a major decrease in anxiety.

 

[FredSonoma]

Whenever I've taken LSD I've noticed a major decrease in anxiety.

Low dose or high dose? And did you feel the decrease just during the trip / dosage or for a time afterwards?

 

[Elron]

Low dose or high dose? And did you feel the decrease just during the trip / dosage or for a time afterwards?

Both. At a relative trip dose, about 100 micrograms, there is a complete elimination of anxiety. High euphoria, more so than high doses of Amphetamines. During the after-glow, there is no anxiety either really. There is also novelty seeking behavior, which is interesting for someone like me. I also feel more empathetic and emotional. Usually I am relatively awkward and stand-offish but all of that is eliminated while on a normal dose. When I microdose it, there is a lot less anxiety, although it's not completely eradicated and I feel more in touch with my own emotions. I also have a consistent increased based state if I microdose it at 20 micrograms although that is relatively high for microdosing, from "wanting to die, feeling devoid of all hope and filled with despair" to "life's pretty good".

 

[m_arch]

I don't think I'm missing your point, I think I'm disagreeing with it.

 

[misery guts]

In my late teens/early 20's I tried Prozac and then up to 60mg of Citalopram for depression and pretty severe social anxiety. It didn't really do anything for my mood or anxiety, but for some reason it completely killed my flushing. Even though I still felt incredibly anxious in social situations, the fact alone that my flushing was guaranteed not to happen (flushing - especially at inappropriate times - is literally the most excruciating, debasing, inhibiting feeling you could imagine), was enough to let me talk in situations I categorically could not do without the medication.

Since the lack of mood improvement made it pretty clear it wasn't as simple as Not Enough Serontonin = Depression/Anxiety, I've always wondered through what method SSRIs could prevent the flushing response. It felt completely physiological. I'd literally still get the feeling of the blood about to rush to my face, but it just felt like it got caught by a net, just before it happened. Kept having to up the dose until it stopped working reliably even at 60mg unfortunately :/

 

[Simonsays]

I think there are limits to Ray Peats beliefs and what it can achieve.

Depression/anxiety/addiction/personality disorders etc are all rooted in an unempathetic childhood care.

Unempathetic early childhood care has now shown to set like a thermostat, cortisol levels at either too high or too low levels (sorry i dont have the study to hand)

Thus we can be programmed for a life of both inevitable mental and physical stress. Its not the events in life that are the problem , but how we react/perceive those events.

This often first manifests itself in teenage years (puberty , hormones dysfunctional due to high/low cortisol playing a part?).

On a pure anecdotal level my previous partners son of 14, has many psychological issues. He also is obese and i would say estrogen dominant, as in fatty breasts.
His mother would stated she was agoraphobic for the first 2 years of his life, serious panic attacks/ anxiety/depression etc. I would say she is probably a borderline. The two are not unrelated.

Therapy has been proven and some drugs (lithium for example in mania) and may i add Ray Peating, may help to reverse / alleviate some conditions.

The earlier the unempathetic care begins and lasts the less likely treatment can be effective.

As i understand it psychopathy / narcissism / borderlines are very resistant to treatment.

Personality disorder is known to lessen with age.

Misery guts Even though I still felt incredibly anxious in social situations, the fact alone that my flushing was guaranteed not to happen (flushing - especially at inappropriate times - is literally the most excruciating, debasing, inhibiting feeling you could imagine), was enough to let me talk in situations I categorically could not do without the medication.

I share your pain. It definitely got better with age (im 51 now). However its now been replaced by Rosacea!!

 

[snowboard111]

"Depression/anxiety/addiction/personality disorders etc are all rooted in an unempathetic childhood care"

Do you REALLY believe that???

 

[TheHound]

Whenever I've taken LSD I've noticed a major decrease in anxiety.

how long do these effects last for you?

 

[Elron]

how long do these effects last for you?

Quite a while. It may be partially detachment, but that is dependent upon the observer and what their consciousness dictates as a manifestation in reality (physiologically). Generally, around eight-12 hours. If taking a higher dose, the effect would easily last up to 12 hours afterwards. Microdose, maybe 6-12? It's relatively easy to notice for me. My movements are far more fluid; I feel more conscious. There is far more energy to my body, like if I was charged with lightning.

 

[Simonsays]

Snowboard ,,,,, err, yes!!

I see a few posts , that LSD (drugs) can help with anxiety, hmm,, alcohol,, weed,,valium, prozac,,,,, whatever

 

[snowboard111]

I'm not trying to dismiss your beliefs/ideas... it's just that it seems like a definitive statement that all of this is related to an "unempathetic childhood care"

I've had long period of depression, anxiety and somewhat addiction and I've had probably the best childhood/teen experiences and family I could have hope to have...
I do agree to some extent that an "unempathetic childhood care" will have an impact on a person mood/behaviour/etc but I would not say it's the causatives factor
for everybody.

 

[Simonsays]

Snowboard,

I too have suffered and continue to do so, similar issues.

I would have said my childhood initially was the best childhood etc, if asked back in my twenties, most people do , unless it was just too terrible to suppress.
But after 30 odd years of self reflection , a fair amount of insight, some therapy and a hell of a lot of reading and emotional pain, i have come to realise that just wasnt the case and most people who say this are in a state of denial. No one has a really had the best childhood, it isnt possible, some if they are lucky have had "good enough", but most dont.

Where does your depression, anxiety, addiction stem from? Later life events for sure can have a big impact, but its how and why you react to those life events.

Its not genes? No genes for depression/anxiety/addiction im afraid. Too much pufa ? Nope. (sorry Peatists!)

I would strongly recommend "They f**k you up, A survival guide to Family Life" by Oliver James. I found it a really good introduction to the causes of these problems, backed up by countless studies, ala Peat, destroying the gene myth. It also explains ( for Peatists !!) the origins of authoritarian parenting and authoritarian personalities.

The problem with these "beliefs", is that it is just too painful for many people to judge their parents negatively, especially if they are parents too. Our parents did the best they could in the circumstances. We all look for the easy out, hormones, diet, genes, life, take your pick, mix and match.

No parent truly sets out to damage/hurt their child, but this is done subconsciously, what was done to them is then done to their child and so on down the generations. Its very hard to break these hard wired beliefs, if we unaware, lack true insight and in denial. Our parents were f***d up too by their parents or lack of parents etc.

How many times have we heard " i was beaten as a child, never did me any harm" REALLY????!!!!

The scales started to fall from my eyes and everything started to make sense when i read "Understanding the Borderline Mother".

Theres even a forum for children/partners/husband/wives of Borderlines - a much misunderstood/undiagnosed condition. My sister is still in complete denial .
She cant explain why she has such a terrible relationship with her own daughter. Although on occasions she sometimes concedes the relationship with her own mother was tense, but then she refutes this totally. She doesnt see a connection at all,, its all her daughters fault.

Good luck with your recovery.

 

[HDD]

Where does your depression, anxiety, addiction stem from? Later life events for sure can have a big impact, but its how and why you react to those life events.

Its not genes? No genes for depression/anxiety/addiction im afraid. Too much pufa ? Nope. (sorry Peatists!)

"When pregnant animals are deprived of protein, the newborn animals have abnormally high levels of serotonin, and the enzymes responsible for that excess tend to maintain the serotonin excess even when they are grown and have adequate protein. This is analogous to the effect of excess estrogen early in life, which creates a tendency to develop breast or prostate cancer in adulthood. It would be interesting to study the gestational experience, e.g., length of gestation and birth weight, of the people who later develop MS."
Multiple sclerosis, protein, fats, and progesterone

"Serotonin and estrogen have many systematically interrelated functions, and women are much more likely to suffer from depression than men are. Serotonin and histamine are increased by estrogen, and their activation mimics the effects of estrogen. Serotonin is closely involved in mood disorders, but also in a great variety of other problems that affect women much more frequently than men. These are probably primarily energy disorders, relating to cellular respiration and thyroid function. Liver disease and brain disease, e.g., Alzheimer’s disease, are both much more common in women than in men, and serotonin and estrogen strongly affect the energetic processes in these organs. Liver disease can increase the brain’s exposure to serotonin, ammonia, and histamine. It isn’t just a coincidence that these three amines occur together and are neurotoxic; they are all stress-related substances, with natural roles in signaling and regulation."
Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

 

[snowboard111]

I might be wrong HDD, but there's a line between personal situation that can be answer with technical answer vs. personal answer that fit your history and present situation...

Peat articles are somewhat technical because he wrote about technical subject but I think he's well aware that nutrition, hormones and so on are not remedies for everything.
Whenever people ask him a technical question (diet,hormones,etc) he responded with a technical answer but I haven't seen him answer a more individual question with take more of x and y and everything will be good...

 

[HDD]

I apologize if my quotes were offensive. I realize that each person has a different context. I was only pointing out that a person can be born with higher serotonin that can be a factor in anxiety/depression. I agree it isn't so simple as just taking an anti-serotonin drug and all will be fine. However, I do believe that lowering serotonin, a good diet, good thyroid function, and balanced hormones can make a huge difference in a person's mental health.

 

[snowboard111]

No offense at all and I sure do agree about anything that bring serotonin down will be beneficial for anybody...

As far as the context, I remember Peat answered an email about anxiety/trauma and I think his analogy about being sort of trap in a room with all previous negative experiences and the feeling of being stuck with them was quite spot on for most people. The inability to move on and not dwell on it too much seem quite interconnected with elevated serotonin...as not being able to believe/feel/see what others possibilities you have rather than being limited, hence the feeling of learned helplessness.

 

[Simonsays]

HDD, I dont disagree with the quotes, but i think the issue is what are the causes of poor mental health . I think hormone imbalances, high serotonin, high estrogen, high or low cortisol etc can be a consequence of early childhood psychological trauma, not purely diet. Low birth weight is a known pre cursor to many adult onset illness.

The feeling of being trapped in life (job, relationship etc ) is one i can really relate to, as mentioned by Ray. I also suffer claustrophobia, no surprises.
I understand the origins of this are an overprotective/smothering anxious mothering style, although well intentioned, can leave an indelible mark.

I dont know if Ray is in a long term relationship? or he talks about his childhood? Would be interesting to know????

 

[Erowin]

Tired all the time. You hate yourself and you hate the world. You give up on everything. You are extremely defensive and irritable. Just living on this planet is exhausting and miserable.

Me

 

[Mateo Wiechers]

Do you Think High Serotonin is usually asociated with high Glutamate?
Most NMDA antagonists (like alcohol) seem to relief Social Anxiety. Also GABA agonists. I think Ray Peat said that the GABA system also opposes Serotonin (and Glutamate).