Vitamin E Supplement? Mixed Tocotrienols?

[BigChad]

Do you have suggestions for a good vitamin E product not sourced from soy? I was looking at Nutri gold vitamin E gold. The dose doesn't seem too high, it has mixed tocopherols but it also has mixed tocotrienols so i'm not sure if it would work well. It is sourced from sunflower and red palm oils. They don't want to disclose what % of the E comes from sunflower vs red palm, but sunflower is listed first which means it could be 90% sunflower and 10% red palm. Would the tocotrienols in that product have a detrimental effect? I was going to take that 4 times a week and also take codelabs ADK product 4 times per week

 

[golder]

Is unique E sourced from soy? I hope not, I’ve just ordered 3 bottles. If anyone knows please let me know :)

 

[matisvijs]

Ray Peat on tocotrienols:
'The unsaturated tocotrienols have hardly been tested for the spectrum of true vitamin E activity, and animal studies have suggested that it may be toxic, since it caused liver enlargement.'

If you wanted to take a lower/mantainance dosage you could check out haidut's Tocovit - TocoVit - Liquid Vitamin E From Wheat Germ Oil

 

[BigChad]

Ray Peat on tocotrienols:
'The unsaturated tocotrienols have hardly been tested for the spectrum of true vitamin E activity, and animal studies have suggested that it may be toxic, since it caused liver enlargement.'

If you wanted to take a lower/mantainance dosage you could check out haidut's Tocovit - TocoVit - Liquid Vitamin E From Wheat Germ Oil

I got thornes vitamin e ultimate to use 1x per week. They come from veggie oils including soy, but they say they use molecular distillation to remove soy residues.

I wonder if tocopherols cancel out the effect of tocotrienols. That product looks good, if taken orally could you just put a drop directly in your mouth. Also strange the foods tocotrienols are found in, are things like coconut, palm, macadamia. Primarily saturated or monounsaturated fat foods

 

[inurendotoxin]

Is unique E sourced from soy? I hope not, I’ve just ordered 3 bottles. If anyone knows please let me know :)

Sadly it is...

I read somewhere on here they changed source materials a few years back. Danny Roddy used to take it for sure, so I've always thought of it as one of the 'safe' options.

From their product FAQs on https://www.luckyvitamin.com/

• Mixed Tocopherols – the source for the Vitamin E in this product is soybean oil. However, A.C. Grace uses a proprietary distillation process that extracts all soy oil out of the Vitamin E oil, thus providing a pure, natural form. So, inside the capsule or pump bottle is a pure, natural concentrate mix of alpha, beta, gamma and delta tocopherols with no fillers, additives, colors, wheat, gluten, soy oil, soy protein or flax. Our capsules are a beef gelatin. Our product is certified to be PCR-negative which is the industry recognized classification for products that have been produced and distilled to remove any and all contaminates that could affect purity.
• Tocotrienols – the source for the Vitamin E in this product is the Annatto Bean. The same processes are used to provide a pure Tocotrienol product with NO fillers, additives, colors, wheat, gluten, soy oil, soy protein or flax. Our capsules are a beef gelatin

In theory there is a way of extracting pure Vitamin E from PUFA oils (so I understand), but then again the thread below suggests this might not be successful in Unique E:

Very Serious PSA/Warning Regarding Unique E Supplement

Thorne Ultimate E seems to get good reviews, but it's always been way overbudget for me.

I'm still on the Tocovit...

 

[BigChad]

Sadly it is...

I read somewhere on here they changed source materials a few years back. Danny Roddy used to take it for sure, so I've always thought of it as one of the 'safe' options.

From their product FAQs on https://www.luckyvitamin.com/

• Mixed Tocopherols – the source for the Vitamin E in this product is soybean oil. However, A.C. Grace uses a proprietary distillation process that extracts all soy oil out of the Vitamin E oil, thus providing a pure, natural form. So, inside the capsule or pump bottle is a pure, natural concentrate mix of alpha, beta, gamma and delta tocopherols with no fillers, additives, colors, wheat, gluten, soy oil, soy protein or flax. Our capsules are a beef gelatin. Our product is certified to be PCR-negative which is the industry recognized classification for products that have been produced and distilled to remove any and all contaminates that could affect purity.
• Tocotrienols – the source for the Vitamin E in this product is the Annatto Bean. The same processes are used to provide a pure Tocotrienol product with NO fillers, additives, colors, wheat, gluten, soy oil, soy protein or flax. Our capsules are a beef gelatin

In theory there is a way of extracting pure Vitamin E from PUFA oils (so I understand), but then again the thread below suggests this might not be successful in Unique E:

Very Serious PSA/Warning Regarding Unique E Supplement

Thorne Ultimate E seems to get good reviews, but it's always been way overbudget for me.

I'm still on the Tocovit...

So thornes product is good then, they successfully remove the soy residues? Just got it today.

This sounds interesting, from ac graces site. Based on the below, what do you think of nutrigolds vitamin E gold. Sourced from sunflower and red palm oil. Olive oil softgel.

UNIQUE E® Tocotrienols — Each beef softgel contains Tocopherol-FREE High-Delta and Gamma Delta-Gold® Tocotrienols derived from the Annatto Bean and contains the highest concentrates of tocotrienols at 125 mg per softgel. Unlike products derived from palm or rice bran oil our tocotrienols contain no alpha-tocopherol—which has been shown to inhibit assimilation of tocotrienols in the body. Taking them separately achieves maximum benefits. Our health professionals recommend taking tocotrienols with the evening meal.

 

[inurendotoxin]

So thornes product is good then, they successfully remove the soy residues? Just got it today.

This sounds interesting, from ac graces site. Based on the below, what do you think of nutrigolds vitamin E gold. Sourced from sunflower and red palm oil. Olive oil softgel.

UNIQUE E® Tocotrienols — Each beef softgel contains Tocopherol-FREE High-Delta and Gamma Delta-Gold® Tocotrienols derived from the Annatto Bean and contains the highest concentrates of tocotrienols at 125 mg per softgel. Unlike products derived from palm or rice bran oil our tocotrienols contain no alpha-tocopherol—which has been shown to inhibit assimilation of tocotrienols in the body. Taking them separately achieves maximum benefits. Our health professionals recommend taking tocotrienols with the evening meal.

I've never used Thorne myself but I would trust their distillation claims based on brand reputation.

I can't find much info on the Nutrigold product but I would email the vendor for more detail. Sunflower is a PUFA so I'd personally want assurances on that basis, but I'm selecting to avoid PUFA rather than for any allergies per se.

 

[BigChad]

I've never used Thorne myself but I would trust their distillation claims based on brand reputation.

I can't find much info on the Nutrigold product but I would email the vendor for more detail. Sunflower is a PUFA so I'd personally want assurances on that basis, but I'm selecting to avoid PUFA rather than for any allergies per se.

This is the nutrigold one. Sunflower is always listed first so it could be like 90% sunflower 10% red palm sourced

Vitamin E Gold

 

[BigChad]

I've never used Thorne myself but I would trust their distillation claims based on brand reputation.

I can't find much info on the Nutrigold product but I would email the vendor for more detail. Sunflower is a PUFA so I'd personally want assurances on that basis, but I'm selecting to avoid PUFA rather than for any allergies per se.

What do you think of this? Tocopherols are sunflower based, tocotrienols red palm based. 40mg of each. It contains some red palm squalene and phytosterols. Would there be any way to ask ray about this product.
They also told me each liquid capsule contains less than 450mg of red palm, sunflower and olive oil combined of which red palm is the majority. Im guessing it could be 200mg red palm, 150mg sunflower 100mg olive oil. I might use thornes vitamin e twice a week and nutrigolds twice a week.

• Red palm oil contributes some of the d-alpha tocopherol per serving of the product, but the tocopherols in Vitamin E Gold are primarily from sunflower oil and the tocotrienols are from the red palm oil. We do not believe that there are any structural or quality differences between d-alpha tocopherol from sunflower oil or red palm oil, but if you are looking for vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopherol) primarily from red palm oil, our product would not meet that requirement.
• The total mixed tocopherols per serving of Vitamin E Gold is 40 mg, which includes 30 mg of the d-alpha tocopherol. So, the remaining 10 mg would be the other three tocopherol isomers (beta, delta, and gamma).
• The product contains both sunflower and red palm oil (Evnol Suprabio) ingredients and there is no molecular distillation to separate out either of the oils in the finished product. The red palm oil includes other nutrients that are naturally present in the finished product in trace amounts (e.g. plant squalenes, phytosterols)
• Although we cannot provide the exact breakdown of the % of the different ingredients in the product, we can confirm that the amount of red palm oil per liquid capsule is consistent with the recommendations/requirements by Excel Vite, the company that makes/markets the Evnol Suprabio tocotrienol complex.

 

[inurendotoxin]

Interesting response.

If I were choosing this product for myself (ie. looking to avoid PUFAs) I would avoid it. The red flags for me would be:

the tocopherols in Vitamin E Gold are primarily from sunflower oil...

combined with:

There is no molecular distillation to separate out either of the oils.... The red palm oil includes other nutrients that are naturally present in the finished product in trace amounts (e.g. plant squalenes, phytosterols)

While not directly addressed, the response does not provide assurances of a distillation process for removing residual unsaturated oils from either source material; sunflower being the most concerning.

I think this product would be good for those exclusively looking to avoid soy, but not necessarily PUFA.

I also have this conundrum since Thorne and Tocovit are both premium grade options. Unique E would be my first choice based on price and the AC Grace description, but the anecdotal experiences of others here give me pause.

That said, my latest bottle of Tocovit has lasted nearly 6 months with almost daily use (av. 6 drops p/day). Value wise it is probably decently competitive vs the others over time, although the bottle looks small. But the quality is unquestionable.

 

[BigChad]

Interesting response.

If I were choosing this product for myself (ie. looking to avoid PUFAs) I would avoid it. The red flags for me would be:

the tocopherols in Vitamin E Gold are primarily from sunflower oil...

combined with:

There is no molecular distillation to separate out either of the oils.... The red palm oil includes other nutrients that are naturally present in the finished product in trace amounts (e.g. plant squalenes, phytosterols)

While not directly addressed, the response does not provide assurances of a distillation process for removing residual unsaturated oils from either source material; sunflower being the most concerning.

I think this product would be good for those exclusively looking to avoid soy, but not necessarily PUFA.

I also have this conundrum since Thorne and Tocovit are both premium grade options. Unique E would be my first choice based on price and the AC Grace description, but the anecdotal experiences of others here give me pause.

That said, my latest bottle of Tocovit has lasted nearly 6 months with almost daily use (av. 6 drops p/day). Value wise it is probably decently competitive vs the others over time, although the bottle looks small. But the quality is unquestionable.

Yes so they confirmed that there is 450mg of total oils, with the majority being palm oil. That would mean roughly 200mg palm oil, and 150mg pufa or sunflower oil, and 100mg olive oil. Shouldn't the 30mg vitamin c, 10mg tocopherols and 40mg tocotrienols nullify that 200mg pufa?

Is 1 IU vitamin E needed to nullify 1gram of pufa, or 1 IU only counters 1mg of pufa?

I would have one of these capsules 2x a week, and 1 thorne ultimate vitamin e 2x a week

 

[inurendotoxin]

Yes so they confirmed that there is 450mg of total oils, with the majority being palm oil. That would mean roughly 200mg palm oil, and 150mg pufa or sunflower oil, and 100mg olive oil. Shouldn't the 30mg vitamin c, 10mg tocopherols and 40mg tocotrienols nullify that 200mg pufa?

Is 1 IU vitamin E needed to nullify 1gram of pufa, or 1 IU only counters 1mg of pufa?

I would have one of these capsules 2x a week, and 1 thorne ultimate vitamin e 2x a week

I'm not well versed on the exact ratios of protective vitamin E vs mg PUFA. Although my understanding is that a little Vit E can go a long way.

Your calcs do make sense in a sort of rudimentary way, and I believe Peat has said even between 3-5 grams per day of PUFA is relatively benign. But this is mico-analysis here and that is only so useful up to a point. Avoiding general lifestyle stress, supporting the body's general metabolic function is likely way more important over time. I just have a general rule about not ingesting PUFA.

 

[BigChad]

I'm not well versed on the exact ratios of protective vitamin E vs mg PUFA. Although my understanding is that a little Vit E can go a long way.

Your calcs do make sense in a sort of rudimentary way, and I believe Peat has said even between 3-5 grams per day of PUFA is relatively benign. But this is mico-analysis here and that is only so useful up to a point. Avoiding general lifestyle stress, supporting the body's general metabolic function is likely way more important over time. I just have a general rule about not ingesting PUFA.

Nice, do you do exercise or bodybuilding as well. How low would you say your pufas are?
Most of my pufas come from a weekly cheat, even then, it includes things like ice cream so im not sure how high the pufas are.
One thing i dont get, how come ray recommends seafood, and many on here have seafood. Are there seafoods without pufa, or are they okay if consumed in a raw fish form or something

 

[inurendotoxin]

Nice, do you do exercise or bodybuilding as well. How low would you say your pufas are?
Most of my pufas come from a weekly cheat, even then, it includes things like ice cream so im not sure how high the pufas are.
One thing i dont get, how come ray recommends seafood, and many on here have seafood. Are there seafoods without pufa, or are they okay if consumed in a raw fish form or something

I don't make a habit of tracking macros or anything. I read labels and generally try to avoid PUFA and lecithins etc (it's the lecithins that get you). It's chronic intake over time that causes damage, so I just try to avoid it. PUFA gets in regardless though. I was eating pork rinds for months as a gelatin source that listed no oils on the ingredients. Eventually I emailed the vendor out of curiosity, only to learn that they were actually cooked in Rapeseed oil...and pork is usually fed a soy diet...

Seafood is rich in zinc and copper (and of course, protein) so actually pretty Peat-friendly if you avoid the oily fish. Shrimp, cod, tuna, muscles (drained) etc are all pretty good I reckon.

 

[BigChad]

I don't make a habit of tracking macros or anything. I read labels and generally try to avoid PUFA and lecithins etc (it's the lecithins that get you). It's chronic intake over time that causes damage, so I just try to avoid it. PUFA gets in regardless though. I was eating pork rinds for months as a gelatin source that listed no oils on the ingredients. Eventually I emailed the vendor out of curiosity, only to learn that they were actually cooked in Rapeseed oil...and pork is usually fed a soy diet...

Seafood is rich in zinc and copper (and of course, protein) so actually pretty Peat-friendly if you avoid the oily fish. Shrimp, cod, tuna, muscles (drained) etc are all pretty good I reckon.

I see. You'd really have to avoid eating out, or only eating out places where you are assured no pufa is being used right? Even at burger places if the burgers are cooked in olive oil or whatever, the buns can have pufa, or gluten or other things.
I saw a quote from ray mentioning that only a very small amount of lecithin is needed to emulsify chocolates. Someone had asked him regarding chocolates with soy lecithin in them. Ray said it was fine. But obviously it adds up and depends on how much chocolate you are eating, and if it contains nuts.
I also remember Ray mentioning pork itself naturally has a lot of PUFA in it. He drained pork rinds of their natural fat somehow then cooked them in coconut oil. I'm currently doing 8oz ground beef and 4oz ground lamb, since chicken seems to have pufa as well. I like the taste of beef and lamb best anyway, and in ground beef/lamb, the iron doesn't seem too high, its like 8 to 10mg iron per 12 oz of beef/lamb. Zinc balances and also depletes iron especially if you supplement it.

Btw ACgrace themselves mentioned that tocotrienols are inhibited by alpha tocopherol and thorne has said that tocotrienols are poorly digested and assimilated. its kind of concerning that this EvNol SupraBio tocotrienol product is specially formulated to increase absorption of the tocotrienols by 300%. It has some interesting things though like squalenes/phytosterols from red palm. Because of the questionable nature of the tocotrienols and the 150mg or so sunflower oil in there im going to be taking the nutrigold product on monday/friday and thornes ultimate E on saturday/wednesday.

 

[inurendotoxin]

I see. You'd really have to avoid eating out, or only eating out places where you are assured no pufa is being used right? Even at burger places if the burgers are cooked in olive oil or whatever, the buns can have pufa, or gluten or other things.
I saw a quote from ray mentioning that only a very small amount of lecithin is needed to emulsify chocolates. Someone had asked him regarding chocolates with soy lecithin in them. Ray said it was fine. But obviously it adds up and depends on how much chocolate you are eating, and if it contains nuts.
I also remember Ray mentioning pork itself naturally has a lot of PUFA in it. He drained pork rinds of their natural fat somehow then cooked them in coconut oil. I'm currently doing 8oz ground beef and 4oz ground lamb, since chicken seems to have pufa as well. I like the taste of beef and lamb best anyway, and in ground beef/lamb, the iron doesn't seem too high, its like 8 to 10mg iron per 12 oz of beef/lamb. Zinc balances and also depletes iron especially if you supplement it.

Btw ACgrace themselves mentioned that tocotrienols are inhibited by alpha tocopherol and thorne has said that tocotrienols are poorly digested and assimilated. its kind of concerning that this EvNol SupraBio tocotrienol product is specially formulated to increase absorption of the tocotrienols by 300%. It has some interesting things though like squalenes/phytosterols from red palm. Because of the questionable nature of the tocotrienols and the 150mg or so sunflower oil in there im going to be taking the nutrigold product on monday/friday and thornes ultimate E on saturday/wednesday.

I almost never eat out, yeah . It's a good rule of thumb though - you can block out a load of sh**y foods just by deciding they're not food. They cook everything in Rapeseed over here, or Sunflower. I think the general fat content of my diet has reduced 2/3rds since peating. Also saves money. I make a point of eating before I leave the house so that helps curb temptation.

I probably eat enough chocolate to worry about lecithins haha. I have found only a couple of quality brands that do not use emulsifiers, so I'm pretty loyal to them. But I think most of my dietery fat comes from dark chocolate, since I habitually crave it in almost every scenario.

Caffeine is apparently protective against excessive Iron intake, but only when consumed at the same time.

Also a lot of beef and chicken is corn fed. Probably fine if you're supplementing E twice a week anyway, but I think it's just helpful to keep in mind.

I stumbled on this transcript on Danny Roddy's site today while looking for something else. It seems Ray has suggested that 200IU (or 150mg) Vitamin E is sufficiently protective against PUFA.

d: The last part I wanted to touch upon was, say you are going out, say you have to eat PUFAs, what are some things that you can do to mitigate the damage of a high PUFA meal?

h: Some of the best things that you can do to prevent the damage from even occurring is probably take a little dose of vitamin E; Ray has said that as little as 200IU would be sufficient, there'll be about 2/3 of 200 is about 150mg would be sufficient if you prefer in mg. Most capsules on the market provide 400IU or above, that should be enough to prevent the damage that PUFA does, and one of the ways that vitamin E prevents the damage is that it turns the PUFA into saturated fat, the exact mechanism is still not known, but it's known that it happens. So, when you eat this PUFA and you take vitamin E, even if you end up storing that fat, it should be stored as saturated fat which is a lot more benign, both as stored fat and as actively burned fat than PUFA.

 

[BigChad]

I almost never eat out, yeah . It's a good rule of thumb though - you can block out a load of sh**y foods just by deciding they're not food. They cook everything in Rapeseed over here, or Sunflower. I think the general fat content of my diet has reduced 2/3rds since peating. Also saves money. I make a point of eating before I leave the house so that helps curb temptation.

I probably eat enough chocolate to worry about lecithins haha. I have found only a couple of quality brands that do not use emulsifiers, so I'm pretty loyal to them. But I think most of my dietery fat comes from dark chocolate, since I habitually crave it in almost every scenario.

Caffeine is apparently protective against excessive Iron intake, but only when consumed at the same time.

Also a lot of beef and chicken is corn fed. Probably fine if you're supplementing E twice a week anyway, but I think it's just helpful to keep in mind.

I stumbled on this transcript on Danny Roddy's site today while looking for something else. It seems Ray has suggested that 200IU (or 150mg) Vitamin E is sufficiently protective against PUFA.

d: The last part I wanted to touch upon was, say you are going out, say you have to eat PUFAs, what are some things that you can do to mitigate the damage of a high PUFA meal?

h: Some of the best things that you can do to prevent the damage from even occurring is probably take a little dose of vitamin E; Ray has said that as little as 200IU would be sufficient, there'll be about 2/3 of 200 is about 150mg would be sufficient if you prefer in mg. Most capsules on the market provide 400IU or above, that should be enough to prevent the damage that PUFA does, and one of the ways that vitamin E prevents the damage is that it turns the PUFA into saturated fat, the exact mechanism is still not known, but it's known that it happens. So, when you eat this PUFA and you take vitamin E, even if you end up storing that fat, it should be stored as saturated fat which is a lot more benign, both as stored fat and as actively burned fat than PUFA.

Nice, could you mention the lecithin free brands youve found for chocolate. I have a fun size milky way everyday, so may replace that with something else

 

[inurendotoxin]

Nice, could you mention the lecithin free brands youve found for chocolate. I have a fun size milky way everyday, so may replace that with something else

Most of the Green & Blacks range is lecithin-free. Although you do have to check since they have started including it in some flavours now. (The milk one might include it). Eventually I will make the jump to straight cocoa nibs or something, but it is a transition...old habits die hard.

I seem to think regular Dairy Milk is (surprisingly) lecithin free, or used to be...and possibly Twirl? But I think they contain Palm Oil/Shea butter. I do not know where these stand on the SFA:PUFA ratios.

There are a couple of other brands. Willie's Cacao and Montezuma's are lecithin-free in most flavours.

My Go To right now is Morrisons 85% Dark. Very few ingredients, and actually gives a great cocoa fix. Again, their other flavours all have it. Tesco do an equivalent (but less remarkable IMO). But no commercial white chocolate is ever without lecithins. Maybe milk solids are really unstable? But I know for a fact you can make chocolate from scratch without lecithins....it is purely a shelf life thing.



The best resource I have found is actually some Mumsnet-type blog about her kid who is celiac or something haha. She lists a bunch of soy-free foods so that was pretty useful when I was looking into this stuff! Dairy Free Treats List - Soya Free Too! - Dilan and Me

 

[BigChad]

Most of the Green & Blacks range is lecithin-free. Although you do have to check since they have started including it in some flavours now. (The milk one might include it). Eventually I will make the jump to straight cocoa nibs or something, but it is a transition...old habits die hard.

I seem to think regular Dairy Milk is (surprisingly) lecithin free, or used to be...and possibly Twirl? But I think they contain Palm Oil/Shea butter. I do not know where these stand on the SFA:PUFA ratios.

There are a couple of other brands. Willie's Cacao and Montezuma's are lecithin-free in most flavours.

My Go To right now is Morrisons 85% Dark. Very few ingredients, and actually gives a great cocoa fix. Again, their other flavours all have it. Tesco do an equivalent (but less remarkable IMO). But no commercial white chocolate is ever without lecithins. Maybe milk solids are really unstable? But I know for a fact you can make chocolate from scratch without lecithins....it is purely a shelf life thing.

View attachment 13852

The best resource I have found is actually some Mumsnet-type blog about her kid who is celiac or something haha. She lists a bunch of soy-free foods so that was pretty useful when I was looking into this stuff! Dairy Free Treats List - Soya Free Too! - Dilan and Me

Are there any caramel and nougat filled chocolates that are lecithin and pufa free. Milk or dark chocolate would be fine
I think palm oil is mostly saturated fat, like coconut oil. The issue was it could have some carotenoids or carotenes but those would be small %wise, so extremely minor in chocolate. I think cocoa butter is fine but shea butter might have some issues

 

[inurendotoxin]

Are there any caramel and nougat filled chocolates that are lecithin and pufa free. Milk or dark chocolate would be fine
I think palm oil is mostly saturated fat, like coconut oil. The issue was it could have some carotenoids or carotenes but those would be small %wise, so extremely minor in chocolate. I think cocoa butter is fine but shea butter might have some issues

Interesting re the palm and shea thing.

Not that I am aware of. I think it's possible but the more niche you go as a product the less likely you're gonna find a match. I think that's one of the tragedies of our food supply is just how much extraeneous cr*p they cram in there that most consumers are oblivious to.

Montezuma's do 'Truffles' if that is your bag, but otherwise that Mumblog link might be a good place to start.

See also: Soya lecithin free chocolate online UK - Chocolate Trading Co