Warning About Gelatin Powder. Damaged Sleep For Years (Did Peat Turn Away From it?)

[Clyde]

I'm posting so people like me don't overlook it as a possibility. I hope it helps someone.

After years of trouble shooting since adopting Dr. Peat's principles, I'm about certain that the 14-21 grams of gelatin a day was making my sleep worse. I was usually using Now Brand Beef gelatin but I would also use generic store bought in packets at times and heat it to near boiling in coffee or soup (my caffeine intake doesn't change though).

I went through every supplement or drug that I though could be an issue but never considered gelatin. I only recently noticed that I don't get the same drowsy feeling after gelatin that I get after glycine (although I can't say I noticed it was stimulating) and this ended up being one of the last things that I considered because of the glycine content.

And when I think about it, gelatin powder is one of the rare exceptions where Ray Peat supports a very unnatural food product. The facilities that produce gelatin powder look like mini oil refineries.

I only recently noticed that he mentions collagenous soups for himself and not gelatin powder in all the interviews I've heard. So maybe he had changed his opinion on the powder.

 

[Warrior]

Thats very interesting. Congratulations on developing the level of Self awareness required to know thyself beyond looking for what you expect and missing the rest.

What led you to this line of feeling initially please? What as the piece that clicked like a straight line in Tetris to melt the blockage that had rendered this sensation invisible until it became obvious?

 

[hierundjetzt]

I have noticed the same. Since I incorporated gelatin (20-30 grams a day) into my diet around 3 or 4 months ago, I have terrible sleep issues. Plus my eyes have become puffy. I used 2 different grassfed versions of gelatin.

 

[xeliex]

You might find this insightful. It kinda harkens back to thyroid / proper metabolic function.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ugZ5X7M2uE&ab_channel=ChrisMasterjohn%2CPhD

 

[Clyde]

Thats very interesting. Congratulations on developing the level of Self awareness required to know thyself beyond looking for what you expect and missing the rest.

What led you to this line of feeling initially please? What as the piece that clicked like a straight line in Tetris to melt the blockage that had rendered this sensation invisible until it became obvious?

I really appreciate the question because I didn't realize the reason I finally considered it was due to an unexpected death. The trauma shifted my perspective enough consider it.

It was a blind spot because I methodically considered everything else much earlier as my sleep went from 4.5 to 2ish hours and I knew I was doing something wrong because that kind of insomnia is so extreme.

I just couldn't imagine how gelatin could be negative in any way and I had a few benefits started with the time I added it. And for all I know it had some benefits aside from the insomnia. Like my hair improved allot after changing my diet and gelatin was part of the change.

 

[Clyde]

You might find this insightful. It kinda harkens back to thyroid / proper metabolic function.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ugZ5X7M2uE&ab_channel=ChrisMasterjohn%2CPhD

Thank you. I used glycine while also taking gelatin and it definitely helped me fall asleep. I'm going to try it again without the gelatin (actually I'm going to try a number of things that I didn't think helped to see if they work better now).

I'm watching the video now. Hopefully it doesn't wake me up because I like the idea of taking glycine since it's low in my diet.

 

[Warrior]

Whilst we may possess similar outer forms the inner terrain and how it relates to everything can be wildly different for people depending upon their genetic heritage, environmental factors, toxic load, activity level, sun on skin, breathing, sleep quality etc.. so its pretty essential to check in and notice if what you read online is actually doing as promised.

Thats why a one size fits all approach makes no sense as what works for he, she or them isn't meant to be taken as gospel but a starting point for your own custom tailored solution. Great thing is due to this experience you've developed a level of mind body connection you didn't have previous and thus will notice changes either way far more smoothly next time.

One thing I recommend is always starting at the lowest possible dosage for a set period then increasing in increments whilst only ever adding one thing till you find its ideal level. Too many people throw everything at the wall and hope it sticks before popping more pills for the side effects!

Take Vitamin D3 for example. It needs to be consumed in the AM as it suppresses melatonin and thus interferes with your sleep cycle. Not only that but it needs to be taken with fat which increases its uptake as well as the right ratio of K2 for best results.

 

[peatmoss]

It was a blind spot because I methodically considered everything else much earlier as my sleep went from 4.5 to 2ish hours and I knew I was doing something wrong because that kind of insomnia is so extreme.

How many hours are you getting now?

 

[Dutchie]

Are you sensitive to histamines?
Gelatin's very high in it and histamines can mess with your sleep.

 

[Dapose]

14 to 21 grams a day! Wow! Maybe try less? I and my girl sleep like cats. We use around 1G a day. Usually in 1/3 gram doses. Plus random amounts of collagen from soups that might be every other day.
The dose makes the poison so… don’t poison yourself and you’ll sleep better! Ha!

Also, I’ve never heard Ray mention such high amounts of glycine. Where did you read that? And also collagen is a totally natural normal food. Look into a book called nourishing broth. Every culture that could would use collagenous chicken feet neck bones shoulder bones to make soups sauces and all kinds of food. Very normal food. Goodnight!

 

[A-Tim]

Have you considered switching to natural gelatin via something like bone broth? At the end of the day gelatin powder is a supplement. It is going to expose you to the risk that you have from any supplement - the industrial processing tends to lead to contaminants, and the original compound is going to be isolated and stripped away from its context.

Eating it earlier in the day might reduce insomnia concerns.

 

[Clyde]

14 to 21 grams a day! Wow! Maybe try less? I and my girl sleep like cats. We use around 1G a day. Usually in 1/3 gram doses. Plus random amounts of collagen from soups that might be every other day.
The dose makes the poison so… don’t poison yourself and you’ll sleep better! Ha!

Also, I’ve never heard Ray mention such high amounts of glycine. Where did you read that? And also collagen is a totally natural normal food. Look into a book called nourishing broth. Every culture that could would use collagenous chicken feet neck bones shoulder bones to make soups sauces and all kinds of food. Very normal food. Goodnight!

It may be a high dose but equal to a 1 ounce bag of pork rinds.

Muscle meat is low in glycine but glycine is abundant if eating the whole animal. The gelatin helps you get a more complete amino acid profile as if you were eating nose to tail or maybe shrimp etc. And supposedly it can protect you from the "inflammatory amino acids" and let you eat less of them (have you cake...).

I should have tried lower doses but I don't think people in the forum consider 2 tablespoons allot. My assumption that it would improve my sleep motivated me to keep with it. A teaspoon might be fine but I've never used less than a tablespoon. It's not enough glycine to help me sleep.

I've heard Ray mention in many interviews that he has some type of gelatinous soup every day but I've never heard him say he eats gelatin powder. It made me wonder if he had shifted his opinion because he was recommended a more natural diet generally over the years. I agree with you these are traditional, healthy foods that are high in proline and glycine. It always made allot of sense to me.

Everyone is different. Maybe nobody else on this planet would have sleep issues from Now Gelatin. But I figured people with a problem might check it to make sure.

I think the soup is a good idea because it's not industrially process scrap. Ray mentioned oxtail soup.

 

[Clyde]

Have you considered switching to natural gelatin via something like bone broth? At the end of the day gelatin powder is a supplement. It is going to expose you to the risk that you have from any supplement - the industrial processing tends to lead to contaminants, and the original compound is going to be isolated and stripped away from its context.

Eating it earlier in the day might reduce insomnia concerns.

I think this is the way to go if you can manage it. It's much less processed.

It might be worth trying some day but I'm probably going to look for alternatives. At this point it will cause a nocebo effect. I want it out of mind for a while.

I might even have an underlying issue that makes me sensitive to it and down the road it doesn't cause any problems. Or it could be the brands or the dose or my prep etc etc. I'm not trying to spoil gelatin powder for people who are happy with it. There aren't any perfect foods.

 

[Clyde]

Are you sensitive to histamines?
Gelatin's very high in it and histamines can mess with your sleep.

That might have been the issue. I also get migraines from chocolate...can't touch it.

 

[Clyde]

How many hours are you getting now?

I'm back to 4.5hrs...thank god. Back to where I was when I thought it couldn't get worse.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

I believe it does the same to me as well. I usually use a tablespoon and no more - doesn't seem to matter what time of the day I take it, but after 2-3 days, my sleep progressively gets worse until I can no longer take any more.

Right now my eyes have been burning and want to shut off all day even though I 'slept' for probably 10 hours (with waking up multiple times throughout the night however).

Might try hydrolyzed collagen and if that doesn't work I'll just drop it entirely I guess.

P.S. Magnesium does the same (pretty much all forms that I've tried). Not a lot of things I can take really. Everything that's supposed to be helpful, is the opposite...

 

[billybrown83]

Does anyone know if gelatin sheets would be better than powder? I've tried looking it up but everything that comes up just talks about the practical differences rather than anything to do with nutrition. I've found some organic pig skin sheets but don't know whether to get those or organic grass fed bovine powder.

 

[Jennifer]

@Clyde, do you digest gelatin powder well or does it cause you any gas, bloating, brain fog etc? I ask because if you’re like the few people I know who don’t digest it well, that may be a factor for it causing insomnia. Ray said this:

“Histamine and serotonin promote wakefulness, and cyproheptadine blocks those, but its other effects aren’t very pleasant. Have you tried diphenhydramine? Endotoxin from intestinal bacteria increases histamine and serotonin; poor digestion is probably the most common cause of insomnia. Avoiding starches is often helpful. Small amounts of some excipients in supplements, and allergens in some foods, can increase the nighttime absorption of endotoxin. The antimicrobial/antiinflammatory effects of cascara can improve sleep; an antibiotic such as tetracycline can reduce the intestinal inflammation.”

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

I know a few people besides myself who have had very good results from swallowing a little lidocaine; absorbing it through the skin works too, if you use enough.

raypeatforum.com

 

[Clyde]

@Clyde, do you digest gelatin powder well or does it cause you any gas, bloating, brain fog etc? I ask because if you’re like the few people I know who don’t digest it well, that may be a factor for it causing insomnia. Ray said this:

“Histamine and serotonin promote wakefulness, and cyproheptadine blocks those, but its other effects aren’t very pleasant. Have you tried diphenhydramine? Endotoxin from intestinal bacteria increases histamine and serotonin; poor digestion is probably the most common cause of insomnia. Avoiding starches is often helpful. Small amounts of some excipients in supplements, and allergens in some foods, can increase the nighttime absorption of endotoxin. The antimicrobial/antiinflammatory effects of cascara can improve sleep; an antibiotic such as tetracycline can reduce the intestinal inflammation.”

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

I know a few people besides myself who have had very good results from swallowing a little lidocaine; absorbing it through the skin works too, if you use enough.

raypeatforum.com

Hi Jennifer. I didn't notice any gas or bloating but from it but I took it religiously and the only mental thing that I notice that no matter how much I took was it never gave me the drowsy effect of glycine. My digestion is unremarkable compared to the nightmare stories people on these boards tell. I think anything that hurts your digestion will make everything worse and that could be my problem with it. Or maybe my problem with gelatin is a result of bad digestion (like low acidity etc and so I'm not digesting it properly). The problem with the histamine in gelatin could be a digestive issue caused by low diamine oxidase which beaks down histamine causing intolerance. Unfortunately I don't do enough medical testing to offer more incite.

I read somewhere that gelatin candy can cause constipation and anything that slows digestion could cause all sorts of problems (didn't verify). I don't know why gelatin would cause this problem but I was having slower digestion.

I always liked the idea of taking it, like it was protecting me. I've replaced it with an industrially manufactured amino acid called glycine for now. Maybe oxtail soup later (but then there's the iron...damn:).

 

[Jennifer]

Hi Jennifer. I didn't notice any gas or bloating but from it but I took it religiously and the only mental thing that I notice that no matter how much I took was it never gave me the drowsy effect of glycine. My digestion is unremarkable compared to the nightmare stories people on these boards tell. I think anything that hurts your digestion will make everything worse and that could be my problem with it. Or maybe my problem with gelatin is a result of bad digestion (like low acidity etc and so I'm not digesting it properly). The problem with the histamine in gelatin could be a digestive issue caused by low diamine oxidase which beaks down histamine causing intolerance. Unfortunately I don't do enough medical testing to offer more incite.

I read somewhere that gelatin candy can cause constipation and anything that slows digestion could cause all sorts of problems (didn't verify). I don't know why gelatin would cause this problem but I was having slower digestion.

I always liked the idea of taking it, like it was protecting me. I've replaced it with an industrially manufactured amino acid called glycine for now. Maybe oxtail soup later (but then there's the iron...damn:).

Hi Clyde, I imagine if it’s related to a DAO deficiency, you would experience symptoms with other high histamine foods? I’m not sure why gelatin would slow digestion if no digestive issues are present, but I experienced that, as well. If iron from oxtail soup is a concern, there’s always broth made from non-oily fish or chicken feet. In case you’re interested, I used to make this fish broth recipe:

How to Make Fish Broth That Doesn’t Taste Fishy (Plus Recipe for Cioppino)

Many shy away from fish broth and wrinkle their nose. I'll teach you how to make non-fishy broth and turn it into delectable Cioppino.

www.kitchenstewardship.com