Worse After Antibiotics: Precipitating Endotoxin Release?

[ilikecats]

Pretty frustrating that Parsifal keeps using his own experience as evidence for his claim that Ray Peat is wrong about gut health and the benefits of antibiotics when he had a bad experience after he took a ONE YEAR LONG course of amoxicillin (an antibiotic peat doesn't recommend but has said its one of the less risky). Ray recognizes that all antibiotics are toxic at some level and he recommends (it varies a little but) "2-4" or"1-2" DAYS of penicillin and Parsifal didn't mention the dosage he took but ray (on top of recommending short courses) recommends 1/4 to 1/16 the dosage per day as almost all doctors prescribing penicillin (seeing that Parsifal got his script from a doc there's a good chance he was taking 4x to 16x per day what Ray recommends for once again: A YEAR). Not to mention that his health was already awful before that and had been bad seemingly his entire life.

"The people advised a very strong and long antiobiotherapy so I tried to find a doctor that would do that and found one in Belgium. I took 1 year of antibiotics and it helped me a bit but my digestion and transit that where already bad went very bad, with a lot of constipation." (he mentions in another post that the antibiotic was amoxicillin)

Greetings from France and questions

And in this thread he says antibiotics "destroyed my vascular" but here are some of his words on his problems (vascular) that he was having BEFORE he took that long course of antibiotics for lyme:

"I was so fatigued that I slept 16 hours/day and was basically having small tetany crisis (with some burst from times to times) h24 7/7 during 2 years, my heart rate was very slow (45bpm maybe in average) and I had a lot of heart issues (tachycardia, bradychardia, palpitations, hypertension, hypotension, atrial fibrillation, arythmia)."

 

[Mauritio]

I also think thats kind of long but there have been posts on the forum of people taking tetracyclines for months with lots of positives. Also I like the Idea of starting low and slow. the first 3 days of doxy I took about 100mg and I think I had some symptoms of overshooting inflammation reaction .
Now I take 20-40mg per day and am planning to increase as my body allows. And dont you think this is where peats recommendation of 2to4 days is a bit low ?
If I stopped takin ab's now im pretty sure everything would return to as before in a few days.

 

[ilikecats]

@Mauritio those were his recommendations for penicillin which I thought were particularly relevant since Parsifal was taking a penicillin derivative. You'd have to ask him what he thinks of taking such a long course of a tetracyline or tetracycline derivatives, depending on the context my guess is I don't think he'd be particularly opposed to it but that you should keep an eye on symptoms and monitor your own experience closely. He said that he thinks minocyline is safer than doxycycline.

"Raw carrots, cooked bamboo shoots, and cooked mushrooms contain antibiotics that are safe to use everyday. Like tetracycline and the macrolide antibiotics, they (especially mushrooms) are also antiinflammatory." - Ray Peat

personally I'd (and I do) focus on keeping bowel transit time fast with cascara and caffeine (which also has a mild anti bacterial effect I believe) and use coconut oil and raw carrots daily for their anti bacterial effects and use the safest anti biotic (seems to be penicillin) for 1-2 days every now and then. But that's just me but I do think its a very safe approach. Not that I think long courses of tetracylines are unsafe, I don't have the knowledge to give you a proper answer for that at this time, but I do know that Ray has said that all antibiotics are toxic at some level and I would agree with that based on experience.

"My own preference for antibiotics would be in the order Pen-V-K (about 30 to 50 mg at a time, with some carrot), erythromycin, tetracycline, and neomycin (for example Kaomycin). All of the antibiotics are somewhat toxic to people, but at a certain level, they can suppress bacteria without noticeable toxicity for the person. The goal is to establish a better internal ecosystem. Chronic sinus infections are usually the result of chronic irritation of the intestine." - Ray Peat

 

[Cirion]

I am wondering if caffeine is the safest "antibiotic" out there. Sea found out that caffeine was even more effective than antibiotics in the long run for him anyway. Personally, antibiotics somewhat scare me I confess, because of the fact that they can indeed be toxic. Going to be giving a concerted effort to work my way up to Sea-like caffeine dosages and see what happens (rather than jump to 1-2 grams at once lol). I definitely noted that my body weight started to melt off fast with 1+ gram of caffeine (up to 1-2 lb a day), but it wasn't sustainable because I jumped to 1gram too fast lol.

 

[Mauritio]

@Mauritio those were his recommendations for penicillin which I thought were particularly relevant since Parsifal was taking a penicillin derivative. You'd have to ask him what he thinks of taking such a long course of a tetracyline or tetracycline derivatives, depending on the context my guess is I don't think he'd be particularly opposed to it but that you should keep an eye on symptoms and monitor your own experience closely. He said that he thinks minocyline is safer than doxycycline.

"Raw carrots, cooked bamboo shoots, and cooked mushrooms contain antibiotics that are safe to use everyday. Like tetracycline and the macrolide antibiotics, they (especially mushrooms) are also antiinflammatory." - Ray Peat

personally I'd (and I do) focus on keeping bowel transit time fast with cascara and caffeine (which also has a mild anti bacterial effect I believe) and use coconut oil and raw carrots daily for their anti bacterial effects and use the safest anti biotic (seems to be penicillin) for 1-2 days every now and then. But that's just me but I do think its a very safe approach. Not that I think long courses of tetracylines are unsafe, I don't have the knowledge to give you a proper answer for that at this time, but I do know that Ray has said that all antibiotics are toxic at some level and I would agree with that based on experience.

"My own preference for antibiotics would be in the order Pen-V-K (about 30 to 50 mg at a time, with some carrot), erythromycin, tetracycline, and neomycin (for example Kaomycin). All of the antibiotics are somewhat toxic to people, but at a certain level, they can suppress bacteria without noticeable toxicity for the person. The goal is to establish a better internal ecosystem. Chronic sinus infections are usually the result of chronic irritation of the intestine." - Ray Peat

Great post ,I think I agree with most what you said. I just think for some cases ( I might be one of them) getting the gut cleaner is number one priority ,no matter what.
I think haidut and peat painted the picture clearly that almost every disease starts in the gut.
And for some of these cases the raw carrot might just not be enough and it would be the much lesser of the two evils to take the antibiotcs till it can only be taken sporadically than live a life full of serotonin and cortisol ...

By the way, I tried manuka honey for the first time today and this might be one of my future best methods to keep the gut clean . ONE teaspoon gives me similar effects like 100mg doxycycline , its to early to tell but this stuff might be the real deal...

 

[milkboi]

I think haidut and peat painted the picture clearly that almost every disease starts in the gut.

There‘s probably a lot of truth to this, but I went from really poor digestion (I thought then that that was my main problem) to almost perfect digestion, and I‘m still f‘ed (more than ever before it feels like), which is a bit disappointing. But I think my f‘d gut might have been the catalyst for my degeneration still.

 

[Mauritio]

There‘s probably a lot of truth to this, but I went from really poor digestion (I thought then that that was my main problem) to almost perfect digestion, and I‘m still f‘ed (more than ever before it feels like), which is a bit disappointing. But I think my f‘d gut might have been the catalyst for my degeneration still.

So you're having perfect digestion and you're still ****88 ?! Do you just have regular BMs or also other signs of low serotonin?

 

[milkboi]

So you're having perfect digestion and you're still ****88 ?! Do you just have regular BMs or also other signs of low serotonin?

Regular BMs (fast transit time), no pain in the gut area, seldom bloating. Don‘t know bout other signs of low serotonin, what would those be?

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

The only signs that come to mind with regards to too low serotonin would be very high libido and poor blood-clotting. Also less REM sleep( not sure on this one).

 

[Mauritio]

Regular BMs (fast transit time), no pain in the gut area, seldom bloating. Don‘t know bout other signs of low serotonin, what would those be?

Happiness! ,good mood,Thinking out side the box ,meaning not following routines and trying new things. The state of bliss that RP decribes.

 

[Mauritio]

Has anyone tried emodin oŕ lapodin for the antibiotics side effect of too much endotoxin for the body to properly detox . Wouldn't it make sense I'd there is too much circulating endotoxin to at least block its effects by taking something like emodin /cascara/ lapodin ,so the endotoxin won't do any damage until the body can catch up with excreting it ?