Zinc supplements and insomnia, any idea of the mechanism behind it?

[FitnessMike]

hi guys, this seems to be a common thing on reading some of the Reddit posts, any idea what would be the mechanism behind it?

 

[charlie]

Insomnia from Zinc shows copper toxicity. Zinc will displace the copper and since copper is excitatory it causes insomnia and also can also anxiety.

 

[FitnessMike]

Insomnia from Zinc shows copper toxicity. Zinc will displace the copper and since copper is excitatory it causes insomnia and also can also anxiety.

thanks, im about to do zinc, copper, and selenium tests next week so there is a chance I could confirm what you're saying.

a few years back I had copper on the top end of the reference range, maybe I'm overdoing cacao powder.

 

[charlie]

thanks, im about to do zinc, copper, and selenium tests next week so there is a chance I could confirm what you're saying.

The standard copper blood tests are pretty much worthless. There is a way to test for it that I have posted before, when I have time I will go dig it back up.

 

[youngsinatra]

Higher conversion rate of T4 into T3.

Taking T3 also gave you insomnia right?

 

[FitnessMike]

Higher conversion rate of T4 into T3.

Taking T3 also gave you insomnia right?

t3 doesn't give me insomnia, it just doesn't help with symptoms as t4 is, even if my t3 serum levels are borderline high with low rt3 it doesn't alleviate symptoms.

don't think its the conversion that causes insomnia.

it could be something to do with copper as Charlie said, this test is from awhile back but I'm still high on cacao and potatoes daily.

 

[TheSir]

Seconding copper toxicity. I experienced this too for a while when I began high dose zinc. Testicles hurt a bit too, which is another common symptom of copper elimination. These days zinc is making me sleep better.

 

[charlie]

Testicles hurt a bit too, which is another common symptom of copper elimination.

Yep, my testes ache when the copper is moving. Not all the time, but at times they will ache.

 

[FitnessMike]

how peoples are getting to the point of copper toxicity? i thought that it's quite a deficient mineral, is it the piping?

 

[charlie]

how peoples are getting to the point of copper toxicity? i thought that it's quite a deficient mineral, is it the piping?

It usually starts with "vitamin A" toxicity. The Peat diet is high in copper due to oysters, liver, cocoa. I think I also read something like over 90% of homes in the USA have copper pipes in one form or another. Most hot water heaters have copper, and hot water with copper is a bad thing due to the heat allowing more copper to enter the body. Poison "vitamin A" starts the cascade, copper will finish you off.

 

[FitnessMike]

It usually starts with "vitamin A" toxicity. The Peat diet is high in copper due to oysters, liver, cocoa. I think I also read something like over 90% of homes in the USA have copper pipes in one form or another. Most hot water heaters have copper, and hot water with copper is a bad thing due to the heat allowing more copper to enter the body. Poison "vitamin A" starts the cascade, copper will finish you off.

thanks, MR, if you could post a reliable way to test for copper that would ba amazing, I would do zinc sulphate taste test but scared it will keep me up tonight lol, maybe tomorrow morning.

 

[TheSir]

how peoples are getting to the point of copper toxicity? i thought that it's quite a deficient mineral, is it the piping?

Pipes can cause it, but most often it is caused by the body being in a state in which it is unable to process copper properly. It's not uncommon to be toxic with biounavailable copper and deficient in bioavailable copper at the same time.

Zinc deficiency is widespread and opens the door to copper accumulation. Some other mineral and vitamin deficiencies contribute to this too. Slow metabolism, weak liver and/or adrenals also hamper the body's ability to deal with copper by lowering production of ceruloplasmin.

if you could post a reliable way to test for copper that would ba amazing

Excluding liver biopsy, a properly interpreted HTMA offers an accurate picture of one's copper status.

 

[FitnessMike]

It's not uncommon to be toxic with biounavailable copper and deficient in bioavailable copper at the same time.

how would you know if you have the wrong type of copper in you vs the right one?

Zinc deficiency is widespread and opens the door to copper accumulation. Some other mineral and vitamin deficiencies contribute to this too. Slow metabolism, weak liver and/or adrenals also hamper the body's ability to deal with copper by lowering production of ceruloplasmin.

that would make sense, if not for insomnia from zinc, I saw a lot of improvement in mood/resting pulse as mentioned in another thread already. It can get very complicated but sounds like keeping metabolism healthy/fixing it would keep all the complex processes that we are and are not aware of in check lol

HTMA offers an accurate picture of one's copper status.

is this much better than the serum test that Charlie doesn't seem to be in favour? can you do any that I can get in the UK?

 

[charlie]

Some other mineral and vitamin deficiencies contribute to this too.

Molydbdenum is another.

 

[FitnessMike]

HTMA offers an accurate picture of one's copper status.

Hair Test (HTMA) | Hair Mineral Analysis Test | Advanced TRS UK

This one should be good enough right.

i ordered oysters for the first time, smoked ones, hope they wont be disgusting like the fresh raw are but still would be nice to be able to supplement zinc.

 

[TheSir]

how would you know if you have the wrong type of copper in you vs the right one?

Yes, it's superior to serum test. Both can be assessed indirectly with the help of other mineral values and ratios in your HTMA chart. This is why it's important to use a lab that shows accurate values for all minerals rather than just a few of them. ARL and TEI can do this reliably. The one you posted uses TEI so it's fine.

 

[Beatrix_]

Zinc does not chelate copper, it only competes for absorption in the small intestine.

Molybdenum, sulfur, salicylates, vitamin C, glycine escort copper out of the body via bile. Histamine, collagen use it up.

I think zinc raises adrenaline by lowering cortisol and should be titrated up slowly.

Correcting my low copper with supplementation made me sleep deeper if anything. I find serum levels of both Zn amd Cu useful and measure them at least 1x per year.

Additionally:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003986116301369

Archives of Biochemistry and Biophysics
Volume 611, 1 December 2016, Pages 100-112

A comprehensive review of the role of zinc in normal prostate function and metabolism; and its implications in prostate cancer

Highlights
Zinc accumulation and citrate production are major functions of human prostate gland.

The high zinc levels in prostate cells exhibit unique mitochondrial metabolic effects.

Prostate cancer is a ZIP1-deficient malignancy with decreased zinc levels.

Increasing zinc in prostate malignancy should prevent tumor development.

The development of prostate cancer is different from the Warburg effect.

 

[FitnessMike]

could that be, too much zinc

Zinc does not chelate copper, it only competes for absorption in the small intestine.

Molybdenum, sulfur, salicylates, vitamin C, glycine escort copper out of the body via bile. Histamine, collagen use it up.

I think zinc raises adrenaline by lowering cortisol and should be titrated up slowly.

Correcting my low copper with supplementation made me sleep deeper if anything. I find serum levels of both Zn amd Cu useful and measure them at least 1x per year.

Additionally:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003986116301369

Archives of Biochemistry and Biophysics
Volume 611, 1 December 2016, Pages 100-112

A comprehensive review of the role of zinc in normal prostate function and metabolism; and its implications in prostate cancer

Highlights
Zinc accumulation and citrate production are major functions of human prostate gland.

The high zinc levels in prostate cells exhibit unique mitochondrial metabolic effects.

Prostate cancer is a ZIP1-deficient malignancy with decreased zinc levels.

Increasing zinc in prostate malignancy should prevent tumor development.

The development of prostate cancer is different from the Warburg effect.

thanks for popping, have you ever done hair mineral test?

I will be making my mum doing minerals test too, it will be pricey to do all relevant minerals and vitamins so i need to decide on whether blood or hair would be better considering hair test is way cheaper. Shes not converting thyroxine very well and if she sees how many deficiencies shes got, she will be more keen on eating proper meal plan.

 

[Beatrix_]

thanks for popping, have you ever done hair mineral test?

I did it once 10 yrs ago and found it confusing to interpret. I have a spreadsheet with all my blood results since 2011, so if anything changes it is easier to interpret.

 

[Deadpool]

Zinc does not chelate copper, it only competes for absorption in the small intestine.

Molybdenum, sulfur, salicylates, vitamin C, glycine escort copper out of the body via bile. Histamine, collagen use it up.

I think zinc raises adrenaline by lowering cortisol and should be titrated up slowly.

Correcting my low copper with supplementation made me sleep deeper if anything. I find serum levels of both Zn amd Cu useful and measure them at least 1x per year.

Additionally:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003986116301369

Archives of Biochemistry and Biophysics
Volume 611, 1 December 2016, Pages 100-112

A comprehensive review of the role of zinc in normal prostate function and metabolism; and its implications in prostate cancer

Highlights
Zinc accumulation and citrate production are major functions of human prostate gland.

The high zinc levels in prostate cells exhibit unique mitochondrial metabolic effects.

Prostate cancer is a ZIP1-deficient malignancy with decreased zinc levels.

Increasing zinc in prostate malignancy should prevent tumor development.

The development of prostate cancer is different from the Warburg effect.

This seems to align the most with my experience. I have deficient copper and crruloplasmin. The last 2 years everyone I talked to was looking through the lens of copper is toxic in all cases, you have hidden copper toxicity, TAKE MORE ZINC. Zinc no matter what dose causes insane insomnia. Higher doses just make it worse.

I also suspected that it is because of lowering cortisol causing increased adrenaline. I think it’s a similar mechanism for magnesium and other supps that should help sleep by lowering cortisol, but cause insane insomnia in me.

Did you take copper to fix your copper deficiency?

I don’t think that’s the way either but am open to all ideas.