4-6 Hours Max - Why?

Candeias

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I had sleep problems after discovering that I was celiac and removing gluten from the diet, after years of fixing it with many approaches I managed to reverse this condition, now after a phase of benzodiazepines I don't sleep more than 4 hours, so I think it could be several factors such as Circadian rhythm disrupted by medications/supplements, endotoxins (ATP blocking) and serotonin (too low)
 
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DBCoast

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@Candeias Yes, the benzos did a number on me. I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that. It’s horrible, I know. I am hoping with all hope that my situation is due to over-training and low carb instead of the benzos. It seems more fixable, I guess. My last benzo was almost 5 yrs ago. I’m pretty sure I trained myself very ill.
 
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DBCoast

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Last night I was up after 3.5 hrs. Drank around 8 oz of OJ and took an Advil. Was able to go back pretty quickly and got some more hours in. Still didn’t feel refreshed at all and had red circles under eyes with bags upon waking.
 
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JohnA

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5 yrs ago I stopped taking klonopin, stopped drinking, and started doing CrossFit to an extreme degree.
Are you still "doing CrossFit to an extreme degree?" I've found the biggest things causing waking in the middle of the night to be 1. running out of liver glycogen, 2. cortisol being too high, and 3. body temperature increasing too much too early. These factors can interact, obviously. Extreme CrossFit can lead to low night-time glycogen (your body releases liver glycogen for your muscles to use both during and after the workouts), high cortisol (lots of studies on intense exercise increasing cortisol), and potentially increased body temperature (if you are working out too late in the day).
 

LadyRae

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Are you still "doing CrossFit to an extreme degree?" I've found the biggest things causing waking in the middle of the night to be 1. running out of liver glycogen, 2. cortisol being too high, and 3. body temperature increasing too much too early. These factors can interact, obviously. Extreme CrossFit can lead to low night-time glycogen (your body releases liver glycogen for your muscles to use both during and after the workouts), high cortisol (lots of studies on intense exercise increasing cortisol), and potentially increased body temperature (if you are working out too late in the day).
No, he's taking a break from CF. Trying to heal. And you are right. I did all that too, quit 2 years ago. Now I "just" walk. No more puffiness, ravenous hunger, anxiety....better sleep, and my cycle returned. Took a while tho...
Ironically, still wearing the same pants. ,🤷
 
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DBCoast

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@JohnA, like @LadyRae said, I’m done with CrossFit. Maybe 2-3 months ago I tried to “go back” for a week and got very ill from it. I’m 100% done now. Before that I hadn’t been in many months and through the summer I started feeling better with a lot of outdoor sun exposure. Hoping I can rest and get a lot of sun and finally heal now that I’m finally putting together what’s going on. This has been torture.
 

redsun

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I’ve been dealing with crushing insomnia for almost 5 years.

I cannot sleep beyond 6 hours for anything. The few times I have, I’ve felt like a new person. Amazing. My question is - what happens in the body or with the sleep cycle at the 6-hour mark that could cause this? I’m up after 6 hours like clockwork and I feel horrible. I can’t seem to get beyond it.

It also happens after 4 hours, where I’ll be up and wide awake for around 3 hours before I can go back for maybe 2 more. It’s absolute torture.

So, it’s basically either the 6 hour max and feel shitty sleep, or the 4 hour adrenaline wake up and torture.

I’ve tried just about everything, but suggestions are welcome. I’m just trying to figure out what mechanism is preventing me from sleeping past 6 hours. Maybe from there I can try to fix it.

Thanks!
Were you able to go to that functional medicine doctor to get some tests like the ones I suggested?
 

LadyRae

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@JohnA, like @LadyRae said, I’m done with CrossFit. Maybe 2-3 months ago I tried to “go back” for a week and got very ill from it. I’m 100% done now. Before that I hadn’t been in many months and through the summer I started feeling better with a lot of outdoor sun exposure. Hoping I can rest and get a lot of sun and finally heal now that I’m finally putting together what’s going on. This has been torture.
Georgi was saying in a recent podcast, and I may have already mentioned this, my apologies, that as we age, our androgens cannot keep up and balance out high stress hormones produced alongside intense exercise. Stress must be managed and balanced with proper recovery so that sex hormones continue to be produced.

Gives new meaning to the term "hitting a wall" or "bonking".

You may get a lot of good ideas and anecdotal, yet helpful stories from women recovering from the female athlete triad. I think overtraining shows up more obviously for women as there is a clear, obvious symptom (loss of menstruation). But this loss of sex hormones happens to overtrained men as well.

If our bodies are scurrying about struggling to make all the stress hormones, it will reduce production of gonadal hormones to compensate.

Years ago I watched/listened to a great podcast by a young-ish woman, an x-ultra runner, that coaches overtrained women.
"acaseofthejills"" YouTube. She doesn't post often recently, but her channel is full of lots of great info from a few years ago.
 
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DBCoast

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Were you able to go to that functional medicine doctor to get some tests like the ones I suggested?
No, I pushed it back and will be traveling soon. I’m not sure I want to keep the appt. I have a feeling they will promote paleo/low carb plus a bunch of herbs/supplements. I’m not sure if it’s worth it.
 

redsun

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No, I pushed it back and will be traveling soon. I’m not sure I want to keep the appt. I have a feeling they will promote paleo/low carb plus a bunch of herbs/supplements. I’m not sure if it’s worth it.
Well thats understandable but what is worth getting is some basic bloodwork that would help you understand whats going on. When someone has problems like yours such as sleep disorder and akathisia, basic remedy for sleep really are barely going to work if at all. You need to get some tests to see if some basic issue is contributing to your symptoms. Just to reiterate what kind of tests you should get, you want to get CBC, iron panel, thyroid panel, CMP, plasma zinc, PTH. Anemia, iron deficiency (without anemia), hypothyroidism, hyperparathyroidism, are potential problems that you may have that will contribute to all your major symptoms. Chronic, intense exercise as well as restrictive eating are known to cause problems in these areas (thyroid, parathyroid, iron, anemia issues).
 
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DBCoast

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Well thats understandable but what is worth getting is some basic bloodwork that would help you understand whats going on. When someone has problems like yours such as sleep disorder and akathisia, basic remedy for sleep really are barely going to work if at all. You need to get some tests to see if some basic issue is contributing to your symptoms. Just to reiterate what kind of tests you should get, you want to get CBC, iron panel, thyroid panel, CMP, plasma zinc, PTH. Anemia, iron deficiency (without anemia), hypothyroidism, hyperparathyroidism, are potential problems that you may have that will contribute to all your major symptoms. Chronic, intense exercise as well as restrictive eating are known to cause problems in these areas (thyroid, parathyroid, iron, anemia issues).
Yes, I agree. I will see about getting this done likely in March. Thanks for reiterating the tests.
 

bornamachine

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@DBCoast you mentioned you drink coffee.

Have you ever stopped coffee for a consistent period and note any difference?

Have you ever stopped taking any other supps you consume for a consistent period and note any improvements?
 
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DBCoast

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@DBCoast you mentioned you drink coffee.

Have you ever stopped coffee for a consistent period and note any difference?

Have you ever stopped taking any other supps you consume for a consistent period and note any improvements?
I started taking DHEA a week ago, no other supps or meds. Not sure yet on the DHEA.

I do drink coffee. I drink two pour over 14oz mugs a day with a total of 5 tbsp of grounds, and I don’t drink it past 10am. I’ve quit once in the past, maybe two years ago, and I felt better during the day - smoother energy. I can’t remember if the sleep improved.

I do think that coffee is a negative factor in my situation, but I have a hard time quitting. I feel so horrible in the morning, I really look forward to drinking some. I would like to be caffeine free. I don’t think it benefits me at this stage. Just hard to quit.
 

LadyRae

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I started taking DHEA a week ago, no other supps or meds. Not sure yet on the DHEA.

I do drink coffee. I drink two pour over 14oz mugs a day with a total of 5 tbsp of grounds, and I don’t drink it past 10am. I’ve quit once in the past, maybe two years ago, and I felt better during the day - smoother energy. I can’t remember if the sleep improved.

I do think that coffee is a negative factor in my situation, but I have a hard time quitting. I feel so horrible in the morning, I really look forward to drinking some. I would like to be caffeine free. I don’t think it benefits me at this stage. Just hard to quit.
It's not necessary to give up coffee in your healing journey. I don't believe it is healthy to give up the things that you love on a deep level, especially something that brings you such joy in the mornings.

If you really got worried about it and absolutely had to try, you could just do some decaf...

Even when I was newly reverse dieting and dealing with horrible insomnia and sweating in the morning when I'd wake up, coffee was always soothing to me and would even call me down a bit. It definitely has individual effects that can be problematic but if you love it then I would keep it 😁👍🔥
 

Bliss

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Last night I was up after 3.5 hrs. Drank around 8 oz of OJ and took an Advil. Was able to go back pretty quickly and got some more hours in. Still didn’t feel refreshed at all and had red circles under eyes with bags upon waking.
Have you tried supplements that support energy? Not as a cure for the nights but to help the days feel better while you wait to get labs and work out a strategy to address root causes. These days I quite often get 6 hrs sleep just because I don’t get to bed early enough 🤪, and it’s not ideal but I don’t feel terrible. Possibilities would be B-vits (I’ve never found a well-balanced B complex- they all have too much B6 and B12, and I don’t tolerate the prosultiamine in ideallabs’ energin, so I get them individually) CoQ10 (high dose vit K2 mk4 is supposed to be as good but I don’t notice the same boost myself) perhaps a little Methylene blue (some people including myself don’t tolerate more than ~500mcg at a time due to the MAO-A inhibition). Adaptogens can also be helpful but people’s responses tend to be quite individual. My personal favourites are cordiceps and ginkgo for the day and schisandra in the eve (but not directly before bed).
 

Bluebell

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Hi DBCoast, you have my sympathies and I hope you get over this soon.
A couple of things you could try are:
- giving up coffee (and any other stimulants like tea, chocolate) completely. They say caffeine has a half life of 6 hours, so if you have 2 x 14 oz mugs at let's say 9am, that's like drinking 1 x 14 oz mug at 3pm, or 1/2 a 14 oz mug at 9pm. And that's not taking into account individual differences where some people have slower liver detox capabilities. Plus there are the extra stimulants in coffee such as theobromine. It doesn't mean you'd have to give up coffee for the rest of your life, hopefully you could re-introduce it when you are stronger again. You might feel like you have flu, body aches, headaches for a while on giving up. Sleep benefits can be fast even while going through detox. Though some people find their sleep quality goes up and down during caffeine detox. All this to say - giving up caffeine might help you if you are one of those people sensitive to it.
- having some starches that suit you at each of your 3 meals, like maybe oats, potato or rice. Starches could be helpful for slower digestion and steadier blood sugar vs having sugars.
You could also look into giving up any supplements you might be taking. Vitamin D for example can disturb sleep even if taken in the morning. Same goes for K.
And of course bright light first thing, and daily gentle exercise like walking really help too.
 
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